Why I am at odds with Frost mains

[Raspberry]

Over time, I've met many Frosts while solo queuing in public matches. Although I usually don't run into problems in most missions, conflict almost inevitably arises when against Infested. I've made many complaints throughout my Warframe career of Frosts misplacing Snow Globes (especially lining them up in a row), but for some reason, regardless if it's here on Warframe Forums or on the subreddit, I keep getting lectured on how to use Frost right as if I'm the one responsible for not having fun. It really gets at my nerves because how am I supposed to play a frame that I don't play??? I have no power over what a teammate does, and because I believe in peoples' freedoms, I'd like for it to stay that way, but in a normal mission, if a teammate makes mistakes, he shouldn't negatively affect the whole team.

A bad Frost build in tight tilesets like Grineer Galleon (i.e. Hydron) can easily break a team as I see my teammates constantly die, sometimes including the bad Frost himself. Even if the missions themselves almost never fail, the experience often ends up being very unpleasant, what with all the toxic clouds, tars, swarms, and auras the Infested are notorious for. I often enjoy playing squishy frames with guns, and misplaced Snow Globes directly hinder this type of playstyle; Snow Globes are too small for me to stay inside safely, and energy hungry builds with Arcane Energize, by design, require me to scavenge all over the map for Energy Orbs, anyway. I understand that there are Frost mains out there who really do know what they're doing and who do know how to not ruin others' experiences. However, not everyone is gonna look up how to play Frost online. I don't know of a good solution to altering Snow Globe itself, but I hope that people at least become more aware of this issue.

[Insizer]

There is nothing you can do other than go something like Maim Equinox to ignore the bubble, or troll Frost.

People are just stupid.

[Brorelia]

Frost 'main"

Good joke, the only mains are Trinity mains.

[Canach]

I use Frost for defense/mobile defense/extractor missions, but understand the issues a poorly played Frost can cause.

• Frost should not buff range, but rather strength - this makes the bubble around any objective much smaller and less of an issue, and Strength vs Range is a fair trade for Avalanche as well.
• Frost should choose energy color carefully - it should not be invisible, or too solid - go for transparency with just enough visibility - recommend a light blue or green with low saturation (like original or gamma palate)
• Frost should watch chat and be fine with popping the bubble if requested (#1 Freeze from outside the bubble will pop it) - the aforementioned Hydron often does not need protecting, and cross fire can be more advantageous, also, maybe you have a Limpo who wants to play, or another defensive frame like Vauban, Gara, or Khora.
• Frost should NEVER litter a zone with bubbles - one bubble on the defense objective is really really all anybody needs, multiple bubbles are for solo survival missions only. The only mission where you will leave bubbles around is extraction missions - because extractors often respawn in the exact same place, inside an existing bubble. Multiple bubbles for defensive areas should not be used in team play - ever! And please let me NEVER see another Frost bubble in the Index (grrrr)
• Some people don't like Frost to bubble the defense objective against Infested. This is always a good idea when you solo vs infested, because of slowing, putrid stuff blocking, and (if you have the augment) freezing those who enter - again watch the chat and leave off the bubble if requested. I will still bubble a defense objective vs infested unless someone requests otherwise.
• Frost are not locked to their bubble, but should own the defense objective and keep careful watch - the bubble does not defend itself and other players will assume that the Frost and bubble have the defense - let them go hunting, you stay close to the objective!
• Frosts are well served with pole arms and flame throwers

A properly played Frost can virtually remove any chance of defense failure, give players a 'safe zone', and can frequently strip armor with avalanche, making a huge positive contribution!

Edited July 7, 2018 by Canach

[Raspberry]

33 minutes ago, Insizer said:

There is nothing you can do other than go something like Maim Equinox to ignore the bubble, or troll Frost.

People are just stupid.

And I wish the non-stupid people playing Frost took less time lecturing me how to play as Frost (sike, I don't play him at all) on the forums whenever I complain about *other* Frosts playing poorly/trolly. It's all a big headache, and I'm tired of being downvoted for what shouldn't even be controversial. Frost is polarizing, either making or breaking the whole team in an Infested mission. There's no buts about that.

[Canach]

Not lecturing you - but hopefully making meaningful comment - bad Frosts bother me too!

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I've never had a bad experience with a Frost... probably because I melee everything and never use guns if I don't have to. The snow globes are always only good things.

Frosts are extremely nice to have on an interception mission, especially if they put globes up around 4 terminals that the enemies try to access to take towers. When enemies are moving through the globe, they move at a snail's pace, so you can easily wipe out a whole stream of enemies as they crawl toward the terminal. With a globe around all the terminals at 2 locations, one person can watch over 2 locations while 2 people watch the other 2, and you've got  a roaming slayer who can just slaughter anything that moves without worrying about a tower of their own.

Frosts keep stationary defense targets safe from ranged gunfire that can add up really fast, just making it an issue to kill off the melee enemies that breach the globe.

When I think about it... yeah, never had a bad experience with a Frost... (or any other hated frames, really) Perhaps it's simply the joys of playing a melee ninja instead of a gunslinger (note this is being said prior to whatever melee 3.0 brings about, and I've never used "spin to win" tactics, so it's not about that)

 

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Imo, there are only 2 situations where the Globes are Misplaced: covering hacking consoles in Interceptions and endlesly covering Tenno operative in Sortie defense, everything else is about Tolerance.  TBH, i will have more problems with your playstyle:

51 minutes ago, Raspberry said:

energy hungry builds with Arcane Energize, by design, require me to scavenge all over the map for Energy Orbs

 then Misplaced Globes, especially in Survival.

[SenorClipClop]

Can't blame players for liking Frost, especially for his Snowglobe. Be's solid and makes defense pretty easy. I played a bunch of him myself at lower MR, though recently I've been favoring a more mobile style and will rarely use Frost (and do an Impedance build when I do).

What's unclear to me is why Snowglobe spam is so popular against Infested, who mostly refrain from projectile attack. Snowglobe is then next to useless barring the augment, and even then it's more effective to use Freeze or Avalanche for CC. Maybe it's for psychological comfort. "I'm in the bubble, I'm safe."

There are also many Frosts who don't realize you can pop Globe with Freeze for area damage.

[polarity]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Frosts are extremely nice to have on an interception mission, especially if they put globes up around 4 terminals that the enemies try to access to take towers.

Are you S#&$ting me?

That has to be the single worst use of globes imaginable.  There are interception maps where you can stand in one spot and cover the consoles of at least 3 towers UNLESS some idiot puts globes on them, forcing everyone to guard one tower each (and how many games have you seen people do that, rather than play hallway-hero?), and making it so you can't clear enemies off a tower without moving inside the bubble.  If you want to defend towers, bring a gara or vauban, who can do it properly, instead of just by slowing, and without blocking gunfire.

Anywhere else that forces me to get into melee range to kill something, and takes away my ability to use ranged weapons, makes you no better than Limbo.  Plenty of groups have lost a Speed Nova for Hydron or Akkad (my fame of choice for levelling other gear, because it's actually useful to the team), because I'm not playing missions with the annoyance of an utterly unnecessary bubble, where the mission should instead be made as easy as possible to reduce the grind.

Edited July 7, 2018 by polarity

[puppycorpse]

You can always go the better root. Limbo and make his bubble useless. Even gara can show him up.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

5 minutes ago, polarity said:

Are you S#&$ting me?

That has to be the single worst use of globes imaginable.  There are interception maps where you can stand in one spot and cover the consoles of at least 3 towers UNLESS some idiot puts globes on them, forcing everyone to guard one tower each (and how many games have you seen people do that, rather than play hallway-hero?), and making it so you can't clear enemies off a tower without moving inside the bubble.  If you want to defend towers, bring a gara or vauban, who can do it properly, instead of just by slowing, and without blocking gunfire.

Anywhere else that forces me to get into melee range to kill something, and takes away my ability to use ranged weapons, makes you no better than Limbo.  Plenty of groups have lost a Speed Nova for Hydron or Akkad (my fame of choice for levelling other gear, because it's actually useful to the team), because I'm not playing missions with the annoyance of an utterly unnecessary bubble, where the mission should instead be made as easy as possible to reduce the grind.

See, it's you and your silly guns that are making it an issue. If you just melee'd, you'd love Limbos and Frosts, like I do.

I like to play Inaros, and Inaros can keep himself alive no problem... but when you need to defend something, Limbo and Frost are fantastic team members for me and my play style.

 

[Raspberry]

6 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

What's unclear to me is why Snowglobe spam is so popular against Infested, who mostly refrain from projectile attack. Snowglobe is then next to useless barring the augment, and even then it's more effective to use Freeze or Avalanche for CC. Maybe it's for psychological comfort. "I'm in the bubble, I'm safe."

I can't agree more with this. People try to come up with every argument possible to attempt to justify using Snow Globe against Infested in any mission. It is simply inferior in every way to other Warframe abilities that are dedicated to map-wide slowing (i.e. Nova's 4) or stopping enemies outright (i.e. Vauban's 3). Snow Globe's only real strength is the bulletproof nature and its semi-infinite duration. It does nothing to actually stop enemies from reaching an area, and its 50% slow is overrated when compared to the 75% slow cap of most other slowing abilities (FYI 75% slow is effectively the same as stacking two 50% slows, multiplicatively).

[Raspberry]

1 minute ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

See, it's you and your silly guns that are making it an issue. If you just melee'd, you'd love Limbos and Frosts, like I do.

I like to play Inaros, and Inaros can keep himself alive no problem... but when you need to defend something, Limbo and Frost are fantastic team members for me and my play style.

 

Forced melee in Interception? I hope you're joking...

Interception is heavily centered around CC, since you don't defend objectives from attacks, but rather prevent enemies from accessing certain locations. Because Interception has four such objectives (8 if you count the two consoles per objective) placed apart, guns are far more efficient than melee.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

I've never had a bad experience with a Frost... probably because I melee everything and never use guns if I don't have to. The snow globes are always only good things.

Frosts are extremely nice to have on an interception mission, especially if they put globes up around 4 terminals that the enemies try to access to take towers. When enemies are moving through the globe, they move at a snail's pace, so you can easily wipe out a whole stream of enemies as they crawl toward the terminal.

For interception it works quite well to put a bubble at each of the biggest spawn points for the enemy. Takes them an age to get out of their spawn and because you're not in LOS they won't shoot the bubble and destroy it.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

23 minutes ago, Raspberry said:

I can't agree more with this. People try to come up with every argument possible to attempt to justify using Snow Globe against Infested in any mission. It is simply inferior in every way to other Warframe abilities that are dedicated to map-wide slowing (i.e. Nova's 4) or stopping enemies outright (i.e. Vauban's 3). Snow Globe's only real strength is the bulletproof nature and its semi-infinite duration. It does nothing to actually stop enemies from reaching an area, and its 50% slow is overrated when compared to the 75% slow cap of most other slowing abilities (FYI 75% slow is effectively the same as stacking two 50% slows, multiplicatively).

Chilling globe says hi. Against infested I go with a slightly larger bubble and just freeze them on contact. You don't need to strip armour or withstand gunfire so no need for power strength. With max duration and efficiency and some range you can spam avalanche added with chilling globe and they will never reach the defense objective or extractor. At higher enemy levels it gives your team longer to deal with them. Though I will admit Nova is better for this, in a pub group that's not a guarantee.

The thing is, just cos a different frame does it better, does not mean somebody must use it and forsake the other one just because other players think they should.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Zilchy

[SenorClipClop]

20 minutes ago, Raspberry said:

I can't agree more with this. People try to come up with every argument possible to attempt to justify using Snow Globe against Infested in any mission. It is simply inferior in every way to other Warframe abilities that are dedicated to map-wide slowing (i.e. Nova's 4) or stopping enemies outright (i.e. Vauban's 3). Snow Globe's only real strength is the bulletproof nature and its semi-infinite duration. It does nothing to actually stop enemies from reaching an area, and its 50% slow is overrated when compared to the 75% slow cap of most other slowing abilities (FYI 75% slow is effectively the same as stacking two 50% slows, multiplicatively).

I haven't many seen people trying to justify the use of Globe v Infested, just tons of players who seem compelled to use it despite it not being that useful or doing much for them (beyond maybe a sense of safety). I don't like to compare Globe's slow to other frames' CC --if you wanna play Frost, play Frost -- but Frost has so much going for him as anti-melee CC without Snowglobe. Freeze is great for it, especially with Range. Ice Wave's augment is harder to mod for but slay in high levels against everything.

[Raspberry]

2 minutes ago, Zilchy said:

Chilling globe says hi. Against infested I go with a slightly larger bubble and just freeze them on contact. You don't need to strip armour or withstand gunfire so no need for power strength. With max duration and efficiency and some range you can spam avalanche added with chilling globe and they will never reach the defense objective or extractor. At higher enemy levels it gives your team longer to deal with them. Though I will admit Nova is better for this, in a pub group that's not a guarantee.

The thing is, just cos a different frame does it better, does not mean somebody must use it and forsake the other one just because other players think they should.

That's nice, but remember that randoms aren't as well-versed on gear, mods, and strategy. You've just admitted it yourself. There are ways to use Frost right against Infested, sure, but it's easier to use him wrong, intentionally or not. I'm not asking to ban Frost by any means, but I'm asking for ways to make Snow Globe harder to misuse for trolling/team sabotage.

[(PSN)D4rk50ul-v2]

He can be annoying but still loses the crown to bad or troll limbo players. I don't understand why frosts don't destroy unused globes with their 1 when they are done.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

As far as I'm concerned, they're all just different ways of playing, all fun for different types of people. They get the job done in every instance I've experienced.

I think the snow globes provide a nice safety net when playing melee - essentially creating an area of localized bullet time, especially against the infested, allowing me to cut down hordes as I run circles around them while I slice and dice. Very satisfying and fun - maybe not required, but sure is fun!

Any time (melee or ranged) when you're defending a stationary target, these "problem frames" are generally super useful (and there are more tactical uses for the globes than using them as defense, as mentioned, slowing down a choke point of enemy spawning, or taking out a Bursa by slowing them down so you can outflank them and attack their rear.). Sure, you have to get inside the globe when enemies do (if you need to kill them at that location), but generally, that's what the Frost is doing, in their globe, so I don't worry about that, and I kill other stuff... stuff that's shooting at the globe, or heading for it. And sure, there are other frames that can produce similar effects (Nova, Limbo) but Frost can do it too, in their own way, so I let them do it, in their own way.

Then again, I've never had a problem with other people's play styles. If they're having fun, I'm having fun. I don't care about my kill count, or someone trolling me with their ranged playstyle by killing everything before I get in range (because they're killing them with their guns while I need to run into melee range) (and as an Inaros, I need to get up close and personal sometimes to make use of my favorite methods of restoring my life), but at the end of the day, I just care about the rewards at the end of the alert, or what have you.

There's really nothing intentionally "troll-y" about any of the frames I see getting complained about, even if they have bad builds. (Frost's globes, Limbo's rifts, Nova's speed or slow, Volt's shared team movement speed increase, etc)... it's just different ways of getting the same things done, in their own style and form of cool.
 

Spoiler

 

PS: The ONLY time I've seen legitimate cause for complaint, and reason for the devs changing things, is Limbo's rifts preventing interaction with locks/etc, which can truly sabotage success of missions if done intentionally and repeatedly. On the other hand, stopping all bullets was stylishly cool, and should have been kept, IMO, and I don't even own a Limbo yet. Complaints against the frost globe seems to fall into this Limbo category of stopping bullets being a "problem" for some people. Meh - it's not what I'd call a "problem".

 

 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

1 hour ago, Raspberry said:

That's nice, but remember that randoms aren't as well-versed on gear, mods, and strategy. You've just admitted it yourself. There are ways to use Frost right against Infested, sure, but it's easier to use him wrong, intentionally or not. I'm not asking to ban Frost by any means, but I'm asking for ways to make Snow Globe harder to misuse for trolling/team sabotage.

Fair enough, I was more pointing out that there are uses for him with his globe etc vs infested but you're right, the amount of people both un-equipped and not skilled enough to use him correctly far outweighs the ones who can. The biggest problem i see from bad frost users is no way to cancel their globe if its in a bad spot, perhaps a way for team mates to cancel them could work but it would likely be exploited by trolls. Perhaps a range based modifier? So for example if frost got beyond say 30 meters from the globe it would disappear. It might limit his team synergy too much though.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Zilchy

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

To me, bad Frosts are the ones that go to Akkad, Eris and put up a huge bubble over the cryopod or the ones that go into survivals and bubble up all the entryways.

In my opinion, on Akkad, you don't need a bubble until after wave 40. You can pretty much put up a shield osprey with an ancient healer specter and totally forgo the bubble.
There's no need to put bubbles in the doorways at lower levels on a small defense map like Akkad. Do use bubble on cryopod on Hydron, but cryopod only, unless you're going beyond wave 20. The best set-up against Infested is a well-modded Galatine Prime with a Steel Charge warframe equipped with Rapid Resilience.

On survivals, find a good corner or corridor and place the bubble to protect you, not to slow the enemies. Placing bubbles in doorways is the fastest way to lose life support.

Interceptions, I don't really mind bubbles. To be honest bubbles on interception towers give me time to look at this forum and interception is the one situation where you want to slow the enemies. Just don't block up doorways and enemy spawn points. Yawn.

Max strength Frosts, I love you! I will spam energies for you. I've seen the best affinity farming results when on Hydron with a max strength Frost spamming Avalanche!

As far as the politics of Frost usage, instead of complaining I just abort the mission. No matter how politely you explain to someone how to use the bubble, they will resent you.

[(PSN)KingGuy420]

I would kind of consider myself a Frost main. I play pretty much all frames but Frost is by far my most played.... And even I agree with you.

I think a lot of people don't know how to get rid of the bubble. I do wish that was taught a little better. If I put one in a bad spot, I remove it. It's not rocket science lol.

To be fair though, it did take me awhile to learn good bubble etiquette. I just chalk to up to inexperience when I see it. And it's hard to get mad at inexperience since we all were at one time, and probably even still are when grabbing something new.

Edited July 7, 2018 by (PS4)KingGuy420

[(XBOX)AyersyBears]

I think the issue here is (as it was with Limbo), not being taught properly in-game how to use the frame. As a Frost main myself, the amount of people I run into who are surprised when I pop bubbles I don't need, and ask how I did it pretty much sums it up for me.

As for Interception, I feel that's more along the lines of clashing playstyles. Bubbling a point does help. It may not be the most efficient way of completing the mission, but it's still not a bad idea in general, hence why I tend to bubble one point that I stay at, and leave the rest unless someone is struggling. I will say though, that any Frost who does bubble a point, should pay attention to it, and if you notice someone keeps firing at it, either not knowing how a bubble works or forgetting it's there or whatever, then just pop it. 

[cghawk]

this is why I find frost a far bigger offender than limbo even though limbo is hated much more, at least limbo can only have 1 cataclysm active