How is this not Archwing 2.0? and Why wouldn't it suffer the same fate?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

 Railjack looks cool. Ok, I've said it. Archwing sounded cool on paper as well. But when you really think about it, there's no way this is gonna be anything but one-two extremely scripted missions on specified nodes; that without an adequate reward loop will, like most every other feature in the game, be completely abandoned past the few initial grinding sessions. This is nothing different from what we've seen so far, except more promise, more flashy visuals, more future dissapointment. There's no way railjack will be seamless and on demand, like an actual transport in an actual open world would be. Meaning the whole shabang will be locked on some empty local cube map, like 'that archwing interception on Uranus'; and nothing else. We've seen all this happen before, why would this time be any different? 

Edited July 8, 2018 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Voltage]

This is finally coop content that requires coordination to take down ships. My only concern is the enemy level and the scaling of your ship vs enemies.

This system is also a great building block for dark sectors. Imagine taking down alliance ships with your crew.

We aren't sure if Railjacked is contained to a small area as shown in the teaser either. I believe this update will be a very interesting way to bring back the cooperative gameplay that Trials tried to have through puzzles but with more combat elements.

I feel that this system is more like Plains of Eidolon: it isn't the greatest update ever, but it paves the road for Venus and future expansions. Railjacked might not be the most spectacular content on release, but many players (including myself) are hopeful that it builds up to extensive space battles. Seeing that demo in person might make me biased, but I feel that many players share this view.

Edited July 8, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[Temmron]

I think it wont be any different.

Its like 3-4h of enjoyment and then its going to be abandoned because theres not enough variety and rewards.

But whatcha gonna do?

Just enjoy the 3-4h and then go back to Venus

[Corvid]

Because apparently just being fun isn't enough anymore.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, --Q--Voltage said:

This is finally coop content that requires coordination to take down ships. My only concern is the enemy level and the scaling of your ship vs enemies.

This system is also a great building block for dark sectors. Imagine taking down alliance ships with your crew.

I am hopeful, and I think Archwing suffered a different problem.

What different problem did archwing suffer? It was just as removed from the main gameplay content as Raijack is gonna be.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, Corvid said:

Because apparently just being fun isn't enough anymore.

Could you specify what "fun" is?

[Voltage]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Could you specify what "fun" is?

He can't. Entertainment is subjective. I think you dropped your /s.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

3 minutes ago, Seyenas said:

I think it wont be any different.

Its like 3-4h of enjoyment and then its going to be abandoned because theres not enough variety and rewards.

But whatcha gonna do?

Just enjoy the 3-4h and then go back to Venus

 How is Venus gonna be any different from PoE? A bunch of empty space with the same 5 half-missions on it, apart from fishing and killing bulletsponges that only appear at specified time, so you have to wait for them, and can't even fight them whenever you want. 

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

What different problem did archwing suffer? It was just as removed from the main gameplay content as Raijack is gonna be.

Except Railjack is actually building off the base gameplay. And while Archwing used to be removed from said gameplay, the devs have been taking steps to integrate it. Railjack is one of them.

 

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Could you specify what "fun" is?

Subjective by it's nature, but I'm pretty sure being able to walk around inside a capital ship, jump out of the airlock and fly to another one to take out it's core from within is going to fulfill that notion for many players. Not everything has to be tied to a reward loop.

[Marvelous_A]

As I said - PoE was a really good chance to make AW relevant again. I mean, if they didn't make the garbage launcher thing and make its armor paper thin.

[motorfirebox]

Archwing's main problem is that it simply isn't all that fun. Railjack looks fun.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Except Railjack is actually building off the base gameplay. And while Archwing used to be removed from said gameplay, the devs have been taking steps to integrate it. Railjack is one of them.

what steps? 

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Subjective by it's nature, but I'm pretty sure being able to walk around inside a capital ship, jump out of the airlock and fly to another one to take out it's core from within is going to fulfill that notion for many players. Not everything has to be tied to a reward loop.

 Have you seen the Wait Within Kuva fortress' demos? "Jumping out of the airlock" was first promised two years ago. On a demo it looks cool, sure, but then you realize that it's a scripted event akin to sharkwing on Uranus. Actually, the whole thing is basically Sharkwing on a standart corpus tileset with a an added new tile with an "airlock". Don't let yourself be fooled again, come on.

 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, motorfirebox said:

Archwing's main problem is that it simply isn't all that fun. Railjack looks fun.

Archwing looked fun too.

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

4 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Except Railjack is actually building off the base gameplay. And while Archwing used to be removed from said gameplay, the devs have been taking steps to integrate it. Railjack is one of them.

 

Subjective by it's nature, but I'm pretty sure being able to walk around inside a capital ship, jump out of the airlock and fly to another one to take out it's core from within is going to fulfill that notion for many players. Not everything has to be tied to a reward loop.

I still play Super Mario Brothers to this day with no reward. Exactly. I personally hate achievement systems it gives a goal rather than the player making the goal.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

2 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

As I said - PoE was a really good chance to make AW relevant again. I mean, if they didn't make the garbage launcher thing and make its armor paper thin.

and now they're dropping it in its entirety for hoverboards

[(PSN)KingGuy420]

Wow, bad mouthing something you haven't even tried yet. That's so mind blowingly original. Better be careful treading new water like that 0.o

And wait, are you saying that something being added to Warframe is going to be like everything else that's been added to Warframe? You're blowing my freakin' mind dude. Are you the reincarnation of Nostradamus or something?

Are you really implying that they're NOT going to reinvent the entire genre, no, the entire video game industry as we know it? How could you think that?

(I know sarcasm is sometimes hard to portray online so I figured I should write this just in case some dill hole takes it seriously)

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

and now they're dropping it in its entirety for hoverboards

Archwings will still be usable on Venus. The boards are an addition, not a replacement.

[Azamagon]

While I can't say for certain that Railjack will have the same fate as Archwing, it at least does what Archwing hasn't really done yet: A fitting transition from "ground gameplay" (i.e. the boarding stuff) and Archwing-like battle. Back and forth. Along with clear coop-elements. Just how players wanted Archwing to be in the first place.

Basicly, this is exactly what was needed to face-lift Archwing to become a likeable feature again.

Compare to the already existing elements of Archwing:

Actual Archwing:

• Completely disconnected from ground gameplay.
• Not a lot of content, neither in terms of equipment or in terms of interesting missions
• The "drift" control (that wasn't there at first) ruined the agile feel of the mobility.

Sharkwing:

• Positively - It has transitionary elements. However...
• Sharkwing is slow, cramped, confusing, overly dark and just incredibly boring through and through.

PoE's Skywing further ruined it in its own way:

• Consumables. If this was not an issue, people would've enjoyed it way more (I could guess so). Cooldown would've been far more approriate.
• The controls are even WORSE than regular Archwing, with the super-drifty controls, annoying Z-axis control and whatnot
• "Transitionary" / interplayable as it might be, the Archguns and Archmelee are nowhere to be seen, so there's still a bit of a disconnect.

Railjack on the other hand:

• You have ground gameplay as one element (boarding, both in your own ship and the enemy ship)
• Archwing as a boarding mechanic. Yeah, it's not heavily used, but at least it fits in completely (including its weaponry and all)
• It requires coop, in a way most people wanted raids to play like.

 

Now if only we could get Archwing and Skywing to not use horrible drift-control (nor bad Z-axis control for Skywing), Sharkwing to have fun areas to fly in (Uranus openworld perhaps? Would also be nice on regular Uranus missions to have FUN Sharkwing areas), then Archwing could finally be considered something LIKEABLE.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Azamagon

[motorfirebox]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Archwing looked fun too.

Archwing looked interesting. And its first implementation—the quest—actually was fun. But in the main gameplay, they got rid of all the stuff that made it fun, and on top of that they managed to iterate the controls from bad to worse. They put a lot of effort into making archwing not-fun.

With railjack, we're not seeing the concept, we're seeing the actual implementation. The core gameplay looks interesting. There's always room to screw it up, but at the very least this is a step towards realizing what archwing really should have been all along.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Evilpricetag said:

I still play Super Mario Brothers to this day with no reward. Exactly. I personally hate achievement systems it gives a goal rather than the player making the goal.

Games like Mario are riddled with stimuli that psychologically reward you as you play the game: from rare useful items, and secrets to basic sound design. You wouldn't enjoy a game without those. Players making goals is just a poor excuse for game design failures. Players don't make goals outside the range and motivations game devs provide. You can't suddenly decide to beat all mario levels backwards. There's no point doing that and the game isn't meant to be played that way.

[Ethorin]

well there's also the whole "this is actually probably going to be a major element of The New War and all the Tau System content" where Archwing didn't have any of that.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

3 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

While I can't say for certain that Railjack will have the same fate as Archwing, it at least does what Archwing hasn't really done yet:

The thing is, Railjack did nothing yet. It doesn't exist. You gotta remember that this is a scripted demo, not actual gameplay. It's a cutscene. And even as a cutscene you can see that it simply doesn't fit with the rest of the game.
 The questions you immedeately should ask are:
1. How often will I be able to play this?
2. How easily will I be able to access the ship?
3. What happens if my teammates refuse to cooperate?
4. How big is the flight space?
5. How much the players' actions would affect the script?
6. What level of variety inbuilt into gameplay?
7. Would it be any different from just a heavily scripted and gimmicky Venus bounty sabotage mission?
8. What are the rewards for doing this?
9. Will there be any enemy scaling?
10. How long will the entire mission last?

 Every single one of these questions could make or break this mode, potentially leaving Warframe with just another flashy gimmick - that's easy to create a lot of hype around, but in the end doesn't amount to anything substantial gameplay-wise. And we've seen a ton of gimmicky game modes lately. Hell, Raids used to be among them.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, Ethorin said:

well there's also the whole "this is actually probably going to be a major element of The New War and all the Tau System content" where Archwing didn't have any of that.

Archwing was supposed to be a major element of TWW. Again, we've seen all that.

[Corvid]

10 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Games like Mario are riddled with stimuli that psychologically reward you as you play the game: from rare useful items, and secrets to basic sound design. You wouldn't enjoy a game without those. Players making goals is just a poor excuse for game design failures. Players don't make goals outside the range and motivations game devs provide. You can't suddenly decide to beat all mario levels backwards. There's no point doing that and the game isn't meant to be played that way.

Because every single goal that can be achieved in the game has to have been explicitly put in by the devs. It's not like making a game out of playing the game in odd ways is one of the strengths of an interactive medium.

Seriously, when did gamers stop experimenting? When did the idea of just having fun in a game lose it's appeal to the masses? When did it all become about "psychological tricks" and such (which is a bullS#&$ argument. Anything that induces a particular emotion, be it art, film or game, can be described as a psychological trick. It's a large part of how art works).

[AperoBeltaTwo]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)KingGuy420 said:

Wow, bad mouthing something you haven't even tried yet. That's so mind blowingly original. Better be careful treading new water like that 0.o

It's better to blindly praise what you haven't even tried yet, then? I've played warframe long enough to understand it well enough to know what to expect.