Saryn Damage Potential Higher Than Nova

[notionphil]

I just took my potato'd 30 saryn out (w the hemlock helm) and tried out the OP's point. It works, it's fun but it's also much more situational than Nova's MP. I have a 30 potato'd nova as well.

 

Nova has an easy button. This is a hardmode, but still effective way to clear rooms. I enjoy the challenge and prefer not using the same frame/loadout as everyone else (I 2ndary a 3x forma'd seer for example). I'm on board.

 

However, lets not harp on this point about Saryn > Nova on lv 300 mobs. That is an extreme EDGECASE. Thats like explaining that a screwdriver is more damaging than a gun (IF it happens to be the screwdriver used to pry open a case of explosives sitting on a stack of nuclear bombs). MP works anytime there are multiple enemies anywhere near eachother. All loadouts that are good at dealing damage, which is what most teams will be using, will be good at spreading Nova's ult. They don't even have to try, or know.

 

Venom won't be spread effectively by your teammates until you've sufficiently passed it back and forth between a few mobs, by using a specific loadout. These also must be enemies who are strong enough to survive the inital onslaught. This means fewer situations where you can get a massive chain reaction.

 

There are some isolated situations where Venom is more effective than MP. However, MP is going to be more useful for most players, in most groups, most of the time.

 

That's good - let the masses fawn over Nova and you can sit back and enjoy your hardmode. I know I will. Thanks for the suggestion to give it another go, OP.

[neKroMancer]

And perhaps you are missing the keypoint I am trying to make : Level 300+.

That "ease of use" and "helping teammates" are useless if enemies are not dying fast enough. Nova snares enemies, and allows her teammates to do double dmg.. so.. what ?

Saryn DoTs enemies, which can do multiple times more damage than an entire team with ogris and nova can ever manage to do. And yes, your statement "Nova can explode things before Saryn can explore one sac of Venom" is kindda lulzy funny, when we are talking about high level defense. Notice the word : "high".

I did not miss your point but rather, I think it's pointless.

I have been expressing disagreement with notion of using endless defense as a tool to balance the game. Definition of high defense is... nonsense. How high is considered "high"? What will happen if Necroframe allow us to reach even higher level? Should we use enemies with progressive stat as a mean to achieve balance in the game?

Or you just use it to boast? That's even more pointless. TBH, you can get the same kind of challenge playing Kiliken with unmodded frame/weapon. That require more skill than high defense.

[rksk16it]

I did not miss your point but rather, I think it's pointless.

I have been expressing disagreement with notion of using endless defense as a tool to balance the game. Definition of high defense is... nonsense. How high is considered "high"? What will happen if Necroframe allow us to reach even higher level? Should we use enemies with progressive stat as a mean to achieve balance in the game?

Or you just use it to boast? That's even more pointless. TBH, you can get the same kind of challenge playing Kiliken with unmodded frame/weapon. That require more skill than high defense.

 

No, I am not trying to boast, whatsoever. And yes I do agree that necro can (and I strongly think he WILL) turn out to scale better in dmg than venom without hogging the CPU and network.

 

I am not even defending Nova. I think she needs a nerf OR other warframes who are considered "dps" like excalibur, ash, volt, ember should get a buff. But in this thread, OP tried to make a point that Saryn's "dmg potential" goes higher than Nova. And as we all know, Nova's dmg potential is "insta-gib-everything-below-lvl-150". So anything which can do MORE than Nova, cannot be seen anywhere other than high level defense, and hence I was using it. I apologize if it looked like I am boasting.

 

 

I just took my potato'd 30 saryn out (w the hemlock helm) and tried out the OP's point. It works, it's fun but it's also much more situational than Nova's MP. I have a 30 potato'd nova as well.

 

Nova has an easy button. This is a hardmode, but still effective way to clear rooms. I enjoy the challenge and prefer not using the same frame/loadout as everyone else (I 2ndary a 3x forma'd seer for example). I'm on board.

 

However, lets not harp on this point about Saryn > Nova on lv 300 mobs. That is an extreme EDGECASE. Thats like explaining that a screwdriver is more damaging than a gun (IF it happens to be the screwdriver used to pry open a case of explosives sitting on a stack of nuclear bombs). MP works anytime there are multiple enemies anywhere near eachother. All loadouts that are good at dealing damage, which is what most teams will be using, will be good at spreading Nova's ult. They don't even have to try, or know.

 

Venom won't be spread effectively by your teammates until you've sufficiently passed it back and forth between a few mobs, by using a specific loadout. These also must be enemies who are strong enough to survive the inital onslaught. This means fewer situations where you can get a massive chain reaction.

 

There are some isolated situations where Venom is more effective than MP. However, MP is going to be more useful for most players, in most groups, most of the time.

 

That's good - let the masses fawn over Nova and you can sit back and enjoy your hardmode. I know I will. Thanks for the suggestion to give it another go, OP.

 

Usually teammates work as a detriment to venom's spread. In random pugs, when waves start to get tougher, I venom one target, then three people fire their Lanka/S.Vandal/Ogris at that guy who just dies, wasting my venom. Then another guy comes out, I do another venom, and then BAM, same thing. This is why I like the defense groups who "understands" how Venom functions. I am ok with them going full throttle with their weapons ONCE VENOM IS SPREAD.

 

And lol @ your screwdriver example :P

[SanityRobot]

 

Usually teammates work as a detriment to venom's spread. In random pugs, when waves start to get tougher, I venom one target, then three people fire their Lanka/S.Vandal/Ogris at that guy who just dies, wasting my venom. Then another guy comes out, I do another venom, and then BAM, same thing. This is why I like the defense groups who "understands" how Venom functions. I am ok with them going full throttle with their weapons ONCE VENOM IS SPREAD.

 

And lol @ your screwdriver example :P

 

 

I generally just target an Ancient that's away from the point, and pop the balls on my own. After a few pops, allies can't do anything but help the spread, barring just instagibbing everything.

[Mikki79]

Saryn's damage scales exponentially, indefinitely.

 

The more enemies alive and the longer they are alive, the more damage Saryn does. And it ignores armor.

 

And having a nova in the group doubles all of that damage Saryn did. Nova will always "help" do more damage than Saryn cause all she has to do is press 4, now she doubles all the damage everyone else does.

[rksk16it]

And having a nova in the group doubles all of that damage Saryn did. Nova will always "help" do more damage than Saryn cause all she has to do is press 4, now she doubles all the damage everyone else does.

 

Hmm.. you should look up the meaning of "exponential growth" and read about it. Anything which grows exponentially, like bacteria population or venom, "multiplying" them with any factor is nothing but few steps ahead.

 

Saryn can double her own dmg with few bullets, and can double it again, and again. Bringing Nova just to "double the dmg" of Saryn is like bringing a warframe to do a job which few bullets can. I myself will prefer Nyx, much more useful to me than Nova. I dont want double dmg, I am capable to do that myself.

[notionphil]

Hmm.. you should look up the meaning of "exponential growth" and read about it. Anything which grows exponentially, like bacteria population or venom, "multiplying" them with any factor is nothing but few steps ahead.

 

Saryn can double her own dmg with few bullets, and can double it again, and again. Bringing Nova just to "double the dmg" of Saryn is like bringing a warframe to do a job which few bullets can. I myself will prefer Nyx, much more useful to me than Nova. I dont want double dmg, I am capable to do that myself.

 

nyx is my favorite frame. Chaos is a bit OP, sure. But how fun is it to mind control a heavy gunner in the void and take him out of play?

 

I hope future frames come up with more ways to disable and overcome mobs using powers other than simply reducing them to dust.

 

However your OP gave me new reason to look @ saryn. I use nova for AM drop, not her MP....the skill based powers really intrigue me. Crossing fingers ever so slightly for necro...

[rksk16it]

nyx is my favorite frame. Chaos is a bit OP, sure. But how fun is it to mind control a heavy gunner in the void and take him out of play?

 

I hope future frames come up with more ways to disable and overcome mobs using powers other than simply reducing them to dust.

 

However your OP gave me new reason to look @ saryn. I use nova for AM drop, not her MP....the skill based powers really intrigue me. Crossing fingers ever so slightly for necro...

 

Necro gonna resurrect fallen enemies as Nova clones, each casting M Prime once every minute and AM dropping all over the place...

[Mikki79]

Hmm.. you should look up the meaning of "exponential growth" and read about it. Anything which grows exponentially, like bacteria population or venom, "multiplying" them with any factor is nothing but few steps ahead.

 

Saryn can double her own dmg with few bullets, and can double it again, and again. Bringing Nova just to "double the dmg" of Saryn is like bringing a warframe to do a job which few bullets can. I myself will prefer Nyx, much more useful to me than Nova. I dont want double dmg, I am capable to do that myself.

 

So what you're saying is all you need for an endless defense mission is a Vauban and a Saryn cause everything else is overkill? K maybe Venom needs a nerf then if it (near) instantly kills level 500 enemies. Admittedly I've never tried using Venom on high endless defense waves so I wouldn't know.

 

Does Venom really work like that though, I thought it just worked like the wiki says, each time you pop a spore it basically spreads Venom to anything in range (as if you cast it on each enemy). Not that it is adding the entire dot stack of the current target on everything in range.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Mikki79

[rksk16it]

So what you're saying is all you need for an endless defense mission is a Vauban and a Saryn cause everything else is overkill? K maybe Venom needs a nerf then if it (near) instantly kills level 500 enemies. Admittedly I've never tried using Venom on high endless defense waves so I wouldn't know.

 

Does Venom really work like that though, I thought it just worked like the wiki says, each time you pop a spore it basically spreads Venom to anything in range (as if you cast it on each enemy). Not that it is adding the entire dot stack of the current target on everything in range.

 

The part I highlighted is the key...

- You dont pop one spore, you pop multiple of them cuz of puncture.

- The number of spores popped depends on spores already present.

 

So, the number of spores popped per shot will increase dramatically as you pop more and more spores. Its not like you are popping one spore per bullet, it goes like this :

1st shot : 1-2 spores popped

2nd shot : 4-5 spores popped

3rd shot : 9-10 spores popped

4th shot : 20-30 spores popped

and it goes on...

 

The above is a hypothetical example just to give an idea, the numbers may not be accurate.

Edited August 22, 2013 by rksk16it

[TheCasual]

everything affected takes +50% damage and is slowed by 50%.

I thought it was everything took double damage.

[helosie]

From what me and guild mates tested last night:

Saryn: Perfect warframe for taking out High end mobs. (Heavies, ancients)

Nova: Perfect warframe for taking out trash mobs.

Edited August 22, 2013 by helosie

[TheCasual]

Also, while Saryn's damage potential is off the charts, it is actually pretty fun for everyone involved. Spraying into a group and seeing so many explosions your screen turns white is orgasmic, whether or not you were the one who used Venom.

This is why I like Saryn more than Nova.

 

Saryn's damage scales exponentially, indefinitely.

 

The more enemies alive and the longer they are alive, the more damage Saryn does. And it ignores armor.

Ok, think about this. Her 60 dps and 30 burst damage from popping spores goes crazy pretty fast. On the other hand, Nova makes EVERYONE in the group do 2x damage. And unless you want to sit and think nova has only one ability, lets bring in antimatter drop. Antimatter Drop has a small base damage, but it returns 4x of the damage that goes into it. Slam that ball into a group of primed enemies, you get 8x damage turned into AoE. So unless you think Saryn can outdo an 8x damage Nova, Nova is better. 

 

Edit: Anything that dies will also deal 1600 damage to any primed targets around it, 800 to non primed.

Edited August 22, 2013 by TheCasual

[rksk16it]

This is why I like Saryn more than Nova.

 

Ok, think about this. Her 60 dps and 30 burst damage from popping spores goes crazy pretty fast. On the other hand, Nova makes EVERYONE in the group do 2x damage. And unless you want to sit and think nova has only one ability, lets bring in antimatter drop. Antimatter Drop has a small base damage, but it returns 4x of the damage that goes into it. Slam that ball into a group of primed enemies, you get 8x damage turned into AoE. So unless you think Saryn can outdo an 8x damage Nova, Nova is better. 

 

Saryn can do 100x or 1000x more dmg than the dmg output of all others combined, assuming enemies dont die and host's cpu is good enough.

[101blubb]

This isnt about Saryn vs Frost, its about Saryn vs Nova. Looks like you've been playing only low level defenses like T3.

 

Get me a frost and vauban(or nyx), and bring your Nova (or anyone who you think can beat me in dps). When enemies reach lvl 300, we will see...

 

The 2x dmg debuff on M Prime causes Nova to effectively match whatever DPS you would be doing without her in addition to affecting herself and the other teammates.

 

I get what you're saying. You should, however, always consider damage support to be a way of dealing indirect damage.

Edited August 22, 2013 by 101blubb

[rksk16it]

The 2x dmg debuff on M Prime causes Nova to effectively match whatever DPS you would be doing without her in addition to affecting herself and the other teammates.

 

I get what you're saying. You should, however, always consider damage support to be a way of dealing indirect damage.

 

Well if I want to test who does higher dps on lvl 300 enemies, say Saryn vs Nova, one reliable way is that both should take turns doing the dmg, while other two provide CC. When its Saryn's turn, Nova will just stand still, and when its Nova's turn, Saryn will do that.

 

Its ridiculous how ppl go crazy by reading that 2x dmg of Nova.. OH MY !! DOUBLE !!! WTF !!

 

No, she cannot match Saryn's dmg beyond lvl 300, she just isnt needed in the group, a total waste of slot. I'd prefer Frost, Vauban and Nyx.

[TheCasual]

Saryn can do 100x or 1000x more dmg than the dmg output of all others combined, assuming enemies dont die and host's cpu is good enough.

Nothing is going to survive long enough for Saryn to outdo Nova. You really think you could find large groups of enemies that can withstand that much poison damage? Poison damage ignores armor, and health scaling is not as intense as armor scaling. Furthermore, you need a large pack of enemies for venom popping to spiral out of control quick enough to get close to an 8x Nova. 

 

I am using Saryn right now and I know how effective the venom popping is. Xini has been my testing ground for all of this, due to tightly packed groups of infested. Every time a Nova joins my game she just primes and 1 shots everything except ancients without using AM drop. Meanwhile, everything dies to fast for me to pop spores effectively until ancients arrive.

[TheCasual]

Nothing is going to survive long enough for Saryn to outdo Nova. You really think you could find large groups of enemies that can withstand that much poison damage? Poison damage ignores armor, and health scaling is not as intense as armor scaling. Furthermore, you need a large pack of enemies for venom popping to spiral out of control quick enough to get close to an 8x Nova. 

 

I am using Saryn right now and I know how effective the venom popping is. Xini has been my testing ground for all of this, due to tightly packed groups of infested. Every time a Nova joins my game she just primes and 1 shots everything except ancients without using AM drop. Meanwhile, everything dies to fast for me to pop spores effectively until ancients arrive.

Edit: I have Nova and I use the M Prime and AM drop, that's not just a number based theory I made up.

[101blubb]

Well if I want to test who does higher dps on lvl 300 enemies, say Saryn vs Nova, one reliable way is that both should take turns doing the dmg, while other two provide CC. When its Saryn's turn, Nova will just stand still, and when its Nova's turn, Saryn will do that.

 

Its ridiculous how ppl go crazy by reading that 2x dmg of Nova.. OH MY !! DOUBLE !!! WTF !!

 

No, she cannot match Saryn's dmg beyond lvl 300, she just isnt needed in the group, a total waste of slot. I'd prefer Frost, Vauban and Nyx.

 

Why would you need a Nyx in a group with a Frost and a Vauban? Bastillebot and Globebot make sure that nothing can actually harm the pod while also CCing every enemy into oblivion.

 

Saryn offers BY FAR the highest DPS on her own - that's not the situation you're in when you're playing in a group. You're not an engineer trying to calculate the most optimal setup in a vacuum.

To put it into perspective: A team consisting of Saryn, Nova, Frost and Vauban will deal x DPS before Molecular Prime. x is the sum of the DPS caused by each frame s, n, f and v.

 

1) x = s + n + f + v

 

I agree with you that Saryn's DPS s will be the highest of the four. It also has to be lower than the sum x, assuming that your teammates are actually doing something. Now add Molecular Prime and you'll get a factor of two for the damage debuff and an additional parameter y for the damage dealt by Molecular Prime (it does become fairly negligible at some point):

 

2) 2x + y = 2(s + n + f + v) + y

 

The effective DPS m of Molecular Prime is therefore:

 

3) m = 2x + y - x = s + n + f + v + y

3.1) n + f + v + y = c -> m = s + c > s

 

In other words: Molecular Prime matches whatever DPS you bring as a team and will surpass the DPS of a Saryn if used in conjunction with a Saryn.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2013 by 101blubb

[rksk16it]

Nothing is going to survive long enough for Saryn to outdo Nova. You really think you could find large groups of enemies that can withstand that much poison damage? Poison damage ignores armor, and health scaling is not as intense as armor scaling. Furthermore, you need a large pack of enemies for venom popping to spiral out of control quick enough to get close to an 8x Nova. 

 

I am using Saryn right now and I know how effective the venom popping is. Xini has been my testing ground for all of this, due to tightly packed groups of infested. Every time a Nova joins my game she just primes and 1 shots everything except ancients without using AM drop. Meanwhile, everything dies to fast for me to pop spores effectively until ancients arrive.

 

Nova one shotting things hmm ? What is the highest wave you went in your "testing ground" ? 20 ?

 

Go to 100, then come and say Nova is blowing things up.

 

<a-calculation-which-basically-says-mprime-doubls-dmg>

 

Yes, I can understand that maths. If my team is doing total dmg "x" then with Nova it can become "2x". Problem is you are not getting my point. Now listen carefully, using your own equations :

 

x = s + n + f + v

 

Now, as waves go higher, Saryn will do MUCH MUCH more dmg than all others combined, making n + f + v almost irrelevant.. so approximately :

 

x = s

 

Now, when Nova does M.Prime, the total dmg of team becomes : 2x which is approximately 2s

 

Everything is fine till now. But the thing is, with few shots Saryn CAN DOUBLE HER OWN DMG IF NEEDED !!! If Saryn feels she needs to double her dmg, she aims her weapon towards a venom infected group and shoot a few rounds. Her dmg is now 2s. Basically, if I could have finished a high level wave in 40 shots, Nova will help me in do that in .. 35 shots.

 

Yes, one extra warframe just to save a few shots... I have ammo mutation mods with me, so like I said, Nova is not really needed.

Edited August 22, 2013 by rksk16it

[rksk16it]

Nothing is going to survive long enough for Saryn to outdo Nova. You really think you could find large groups of enemies that can withstand that much poison damage? Poison damage ignores armor, and health scaling is not as intense as armor scaling. Furthermore, you need a large pack of enemies for venom popping to spiral out of control quick enough to get close to an 8x Nova. 

 

....

 

Oh yea, forgot to comment on this in my last post.

 

No I dont need groups that tight packed as you may think. Either your weapon is bad, or you are not doing it right.

[101blubb]

Yes, I can understand that maths. If my team is doing total dmg "x" then with Nova it can become "2x". Problem is you are not getting my point. Now listen carefully, using your own equations :

 

x = s + n + f + v

 

Now, as waves go higher, Saryn will do MUCH MUCH more dmg than all others combined, making n + f + v almost irrelevant.. so approximately :

 

x = s

 

Fair enough.

 

Now, when Nova does M.Prime, the total dmg of team becomes : 2x which is approximately 2s

 

Mh, mh... go on...

 

Everything is fine till now. But the thing is, with few shots Saryn CAN DOUBLE HER OWN DMG IF NEEDED !!! If Saryn feels she needs to double her dmg, she aims her weapon towards a venom infected group and shoot a few rounds. Her dmg is now 2s. Basically, if I could have finished a high level wave in 40 shots, Nova will help me in do that in .. 35 shots.

 

No. Her DPS will still be s. s is not a constant, it's rather a function of the amount of zits you can pop per unit of time. I do get the idea of "increasing DPS at will", though.

 

Yes, one extra warframe just to save a few shots... I have ammo mutations mods with me, so like I said, Nova is not really needed.

 

Neither is Nyx if I'm following your logic of Saryn doing all the DPS one could ever wish for in an environment with Frost and Vauban.

 

Aren't we discussing exact maths, though?

Edited August 22, 2013 by 101blubb

[rksk16it]

Aren't we discussing exact maths, though?

 

Ok, here is a summary of what I am trying to say, looks like you cant get over the 2x dmg :

 

What nova will do is : Help save some bullets (and few seconds) for the team each round, like they are so scarce already.... oh wait.

 

What nyx will do is : Provide an "oh !@#%" button in case things go wrong and save the mission from failing altogether.

 

I will prefer an "oh !@#%" button over few bullets.

 

If you understand some slightly complex maths, here is what I am trying to say (warning : IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND MATHS, DONT READ BELOW, IT WILL ALL APPEAR EGYPTION)

 

The dmg of Saryn "s" is an exponential function of time "t" :

s = k^t (where k is some constant)

 

Now Mprime will double the dmg, so the total dmg output "T" will be (as a function of time) :

 

T = 2s = 2 * k^t

 

Now you can always write, 2 = k^m, where m = log 2 (with base k)

 

so, T becomes :

T = k^m * k^t = k^(t+m)

 

Now compare this with original dmg of Saryn : s = k^t

What you all did is added a small number : "m" to the time "t". So by doubling the dmg you are just saving few seconds, nothing much.

[101blubb]

Ok, here is a summary of what I am trying to say, looks like you cant get over the 2x dmg :

 

What nova will do is : Help save some bullets (and few seconds) for the team each round, like they are so scarce already.... oh wait.

 

What nyx will do is : Provide an "oh !@#%" button in case things go wrong and save the mission from failing altogether.

 

I will prefer an "oh !@#%" button over few bullets.

 

You don't need that with people who don't mess up.

 

If you understand some slightly complex maths, here is what I am trying to say (warning : IF YOU DONT UNDERSTAND MATHS, DONT READ BELOW, IT WILL ALL APPEAR EGYPTION)

 

The dmg of Saryn "s" is an exponential function of time "t" :

s = k^t (where k is some constant)

 

Now Mprime will double the dmg, so the total dmg output "T" will be (as a function of time) :

 

T = 2s = 2 * k^t

 

Now you can always write, 2 = k^m, where m = log 2 (with base k)

 

so, T becomes :

T = k^m * k^t = k^(t+m)

 

Now compare this with original dmg of Saryn : s = k^t

What you all did is added a small number : "m" to the time "t". So by doubling the dmg you are just saving few seconds, nothing much.

 

I'd rather use

 

s = e^kt

 

instead of some obscure base. People tend to be more familiar with that, especially when you're talking about logarithms.

 

2s = 2e^kt

ln(2s) = ln(2e^kt)

ln(2) + ln(s) = ln(2) + ln(e^kt) = ln(2) + kt

2s = e^(ln(2)+kt) with ln(2) being about 0.693

 

This doesn't actually tell you anything besides "SKILL INCREASES DPS, HURR DURR" - that should be obvious. I cannot get over the 2x damage because it's literally what makes Nova untouchable DPS-wise - mathematically speaking. You cannot physically reach the amount of DPS caused by Molecular Prime if you're actually concerned about exact mathematics. This makes Nova the frame with the highest potential DPS - she just cannot reach it on her own. I'm also fully aware of just how nitpicky this argument is.

 

Edit: Note: Rhino is not capable of doing that with Roar due to it adding a value <1x.

Edited August 22, 2013 by 101blubb

[Fenrirous]

Ok so it seems this is getting out of hand with people saying saryn's damage takes to long to ramp up vs nova's damage, this is indeed false, it seems like no one here watched the video in my first post, which it says in bold and underlined to watch the video before commenting. The saryn is able to spread the venom and stack it on everything by himself using a weapon with puncture, it doesnt take long at all and requires very little effort. M prime is only useful up to a certain level for instant clearing mobs, where as venom is ALWAYS useful for killing large groups of mobs very fast. This was not made to be a saryn vs nova debate starter, this was just made to show that saryn's venom is not useless, which alot of people seem to think it is. Also to all the people who like to say nova still does more damage, just do it for yourself, take a saryn with a puncture weapon and go do any defense and put venom up and spread it, you'll see it is just as effective as M prime for clearing mobs out for pressing 1 button. To those who think there is no benefit to using venom because M prime slows and makes them take 2x damage, just remember that venom benefits the group in doing constant, ticking damage that stacks to a huge amount, if you do not think this is a benefit, then you have yet to actually do this or anything like it.