Exalted Weapons and loss of interest

[Tenno.Rukasu]

Have you tried to rank up exalted weapons? It's extremely easy. They're not like regular ones. I just felt they are weaker, that's all.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Tenno.Rukasu said:

Have you tried to rank up exalted weapons? It's extremely easy. They're not like regular ones. I just felt they are weaker, that's all.

Eh, it's the supplementals that make them better. Well, it was until the melee ones were proven to be affected by Naramon and Drifting Contact/Gladiator Rush to make their combo counter last longer. Given that they now get their own, so that we can swap out of them for a bit and then back in if our timing is right, to maintain them.

Having a massive level of health-steal on Valkyr, the projectile waves and high status on Excal, the base combo extension on Wukong and his high crit, all three have easily comparable stats to high-tier weapons.

What the melee lacks is the thing that all other melee have; the stances add points to your modding total, meaning they'll never quite get the freedom of modding that any other melee weapon has.

But on testing everything, I've been through all of the newly updated frames with ability weapons and every single one performs amazingly still, without the need for any previously required weapons to boost them.

Now if we could only get the same kind of boost for mod-boosted regular abilities so that we don't have to go looking for ridiculous rivens...

[Autongnosis]

Le 15/07/2018 à 22:06, Alcatraz a dit :

Yeah Mesa needs 4 forma to use the exact same mods that my Lex/Aklex Prime already uses. Which to me, I could of lived without Mesa having a separate exalted weapon because the same mods I use for Lex, is the same ones I use on Mesa anyway. No difference there other than I can use a riven on the pistols now.

Well, if that's a small dofference to you... 

Also also, for one like Mesa where you could use the same build and not cripple your guns, other than the fact that ops, a high Power Strenght Mesa has actually better DPS without Hornet Strike, all of the others have wildly different builds... 

Le 15/07/2018 à 20:04, (PS4)CoolD2108 a dit :

Reason i lost it was that pointless nerf to SD if anything... 

??? What did i miss? 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 39 Minuten schrieb Autongnosis:

... 

??? What did i miss? 

There was a time before Excals damage decayed with range, before chromatic blade... even before combo mods i believe where his slash dash waves fully scaled off combo. Nothing else did but those waves did.

Everyone else was making tanky builds, spamming waves, blinding.

Me (and enough people to nerf it appearently), me i was using a huras for the stealth multipliers and slash dashing for burst damage.

Only after the damage decayed with range, after chromatic blade was implemented, after it was fairly balanced to have some alternative little multiplier was it nerfed. You could build him a little less tanky, more towards efficiency and dash for stealth coverage instead of facetanking as slash dash didn't interrupt huras stealth. Surging dash served a purpose on EB too and you could legit play without chromatic. Frickin loved that playstyle.

Still playing him like that. It still builds up combo for melee range strikes what's goodisch but it's not even closely grasping his potential like it did back then.

Edited July 17, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Tenno.Rukasu]

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Having a massive level of health-steal on Valkyr, the projectile waves and high status on Excal, the base combo extension on Wukong and his high crit, all three have easily comparable stats to high-tier weapons.

After 10 minutes any exalted weapon became boring for me, even before that update. I've more often used them to spike some high damage very fast and them toogle off again. Now that can't be done, there's a need to build a combo multiplier. My 'end game's melee weapons scales in seconds without combo. Compared to them I felt that exalted weapons are weaker now. And my old Mesa with Akstiletto Prime was much better than new one even with same build. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Tenno.Rukasu

[Birdframe_Prime]

17 minutes ago, Tenno.Rukasu said:

Now that can't be done

You know that the base stats of these weapons hasn't changed, right? When you were using a stat-stick before to make them work, it functions exactly the same as it does now, the only difference is that the mods that affect the weapons now need to be put on the weapons instead of the stat-stick.

To put it another way, as long as your build for the abilities hasn't changed, then absolutely nothing has changed. Well... all except Titania, her Dex Pixia had its crit chance reduced due to it shifting to Secondary mods, and so having more crit-boosting mods available.

Your feeling that they're weaker now is just that, a feeling. Stats have not changed.

[DeMonkey]

8 hours ago, Thaylien said:

all three have easily comparable stats to high-tier weapons.

I disagree, they each (outside of Exalted Blade to some extent) lack arguably the most important stat of all. Range.

Of the three Unique melee weapons Primal Fury has the longest reach on it's basic melee attacks (waves don't count) and even then it only reaches 3 ~ 4 meters on it's non-slam attacks. Polearms and Whips reach in excess of 8, I recall that new hammer strike even being able to reach 10 meters.

Got to remember, effective range increases exponentially due to the fact that we swing in a cone with many attacks, as such doubling the range at which the weapon reaches will more than double the area you hit.

E.g. You're in a corridor, there's a swarm of enemies coming towards you each with 1,000 health. You smack them with Primal Fury, you get lucky and hit 2 of them and they drop dead. 2,000 damage dealt.

You're in the same corridor, there's a swarm of the same enemies coming towards you. You swing your polearm, 6 of them drop dead due to the increased range. 6,000 damage dealt. 

Unique weapons absolutely can deal comparable damage, but their effective DPS is lower than a high tier melee by a rather significant amount because of this. Exalted Blade still suffers somewhat despite it's range due to fall-off and lack of combo building with the waves.

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I disagree, they each (outside of Exalted Blade to some extent) lack arguably the most important stat of all. Range.

Aside from pole-arms and whips, every weapon in the game lacks Range, that's why they're doing melee 3.0 with changes including 'buffing the base range of all melee, but reducing the effectiveness of range mods to balance out total achievable range'.

Swords, Rapiers, Nikanas, Dual Swords and Daggers all have the same reach, all Tonfas and sparring weapons have the same range, all heavy blades have the same reach. It's literally because we have the range of the Zaw polearms and the Whips on the board that there's any real disparity in the melee range at all.

Aside from Exalted Blade being able to project attacks, its base range of the sword is exactly the same as that of the Skana. Venka Prime, easily one of the top tier weapons due to its scaling mechanic, has the same range as Valkyr's claws, and Wukong's Staff has better range than all but the Zaw staff weapons.

Again, though, as I said earlier, it's the supplementals that make the weapons better. Name any of your top-tier weapons that grants literal invulnerability, for example, or has built in combo and reach extension, or has projectile waves and turns every slide into a short range Blind... That's what I was getting at.

Yes, in most cases, the Zaw weapons are producing Best in Category. But without the specific Zaw arcanes, they can only do what any other melee weapon in the game does a little better. And if you're stuck on a Rifle Only Sortie? They don't even exist.

Ability weapons are how you get around limitations of what basic melee can do.

So yeah, you can scale your polearm up quicker than you can scale up an Ability weapon, that's good. That's intended. But it doesn't detract at all from what the Ability Weapons can do either.

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

and Wukong's Staff has better range than all but the Zaw staff weapons.

It really doesn't. Your average Heavy Blade will out-range it, even normal staff weapons. I'll make a quick listed of weapons I've found via testing to be longer. Testing was simple, if a weapon could hit a marked enemy from 5m away with Primed Reach then it was longer than the Iron Staff (given upon testing I was struggling to even get it to hit an enemy 4m away even at max length).

Polearms,

Whips,

Blade-Whips,

Heavy Blades (tested with Volnus),

Staves (tested with Tipedo),

And Hammers (tested with Jat Kittag).

All these weapons have a longer range than the Iron Staff at max length, a weapon for which ''range growth'' is it's defining trait. They will thus scale harder and generally have a higher effective DPS, none of the weapons I tested were Zaws.

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Name any of your top-tier weapons that grants literal invulnerability, for example, or has built in combo and reach extension, or has projectile waves and turns every slide into a short range Blind... That's what I was getting at.

Okay, that's fair enough. I wouldn't consider those stats, personally. They're mechanics.

I'm only taking umbrage with the statement that they have comparable stats, because whilst DE are certainly going to be hitting range, it's reasonable to assume that things like Whips and Polearms will be brought down to an average level, which will likely be current Heavy Blade/Stave range if not slightly longer. If the Iron Staff cannot out-range them even at it's max length now, then it's not going to be renowned for it's range in the future, especially when the stance has so many slam attacks that don't go further than 1m. To that end it will remain, comparatively, sub par.

I don't need convincing of whether the Iron Staff is good or not, it's my most used weapon by a long shot and I'll continue to use it till this game dies, but it's still a sub-par melee weapon objectively. It's supplemental of ''range growth'' isn't relevant when the other weapons in question can reach further. The supplemental of 2s longer on the combo duration is, whilst helpful, completely unnoticeable if you're using a combination of things like Power Spike and combo duration boosting mods. It also applies to normal melee anyway.

Edit: Image of Primal Fury at it's max length completely missing an enemy 4m away.

Spoiler

Image of the Tipedo, a staff weapon, hitting an enemy 5m away.

Spoiler

Edited July 17, 2018 by DeMonkey

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

It really doesn't.

Eh, I stand corrected. Are we sure that this isn't going to be corrected in the change though? Since it doesn't have the range of even the staff weapons we have, would it not receive a buff to it's base range during that update too?

But then again, the point he was trying to make was that the weapons themselves don't have the range of pole-arms and whips, and my counter-point was that nothing else really does either.

Staff weapons don't have the range of pole-arms, so I didn't expect Wukong's staff to beat them either. No single or dual sword has that range, so the base sword on EB wouldn't either, while the same is then true of Hysteria claws, no sparring/gauntlet weapon has high range, so why would the claws?

That's really all there is to it, for me, they have really good stats (now that we see them) that can be boosted with Ability Strength, and they accept all the same mods they did before, so the argument that they seem weaker now, after the change, is kind of being silly.

So while they might not stand up to the highest tier of melee weapons in terms of raw dps or burst damage, they have supplemental functions that make them better than any normal melee and worth the energy cost to using them.

[Buttaface]

The massive power increase of being able to have a whole extra weapon slot on the frames with exalted weapons justifies a few forma IMO. As others point out, the exalted weapons level very quickly, and players who complain about this inevitably exaggerate the number of forma required.

[DeMonkey]

21 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Are we sure that this isn't going to be corrected in the change though?

I doubt it personally. The Iron Staff has a cap, other weapons don't. For that reason even if Primed Reach were changed to be + 4m range I doubt the Iron Staff would exceed it's current length.

And yes, whilst nothing else has the range of a polearm or a whip, that's kinda the point. That's what makes them better weapons.

Granted yes, the OP is wrong, they certainly aren't weaker than they were before. As said earlier on in response to them, technically they're stronger that they were before due to melee weapons still being stat sticks, but they're still not as good as normal weapons.

I agree with Exalted Blade being unique enough to perform better than a melee weapon and be worth the energy. I don't agree for Hysteria and Primal Fury.

Isn't it pretty common for people to make Warcry builds using normal melee over Hysteria builds, you're certainly survivable enough with such a build to not need the invulnerability for sustained periods? And Primal Fury has absolutely nothing over standard melee except heightened damage, which as I've already pointed out earlier isn't all that useful compared to range.

We're kinda swivelling off topic of course now, but in order for these 2 weapons to have comparable stats they need to have comparable range, anything else and they're subpar. For Hysteria it could simply be a case of integrating her augment into normal attacks, so that simply by pressing 'E' you quickly leap at the enemy and hit them with a small AoE that hits nearby enemies for reduced damage. For Primal Fury it could simply have a far higher cap, it should be the longest melee weapon in the game thematically.

I mean, you said it yourself, these weapons don't have the same potential as top tier melee. To that I say, why not? These weapons cost energy and they're countered in ways that normal melee isn't, by Nullifiers and Disruptors for example. These weapons should, imo, be the absolute best we can get and I really don't feel that way about Hysteria/Primal Fury.

Edited July 17, 2018 by DeMonkey

[GPrime96]

18 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

 Isn't it pretty common for people to make Warcry builds using normal melee over Hysteria builds, you're certainly survivable enough with such a build to not need the invulnerability for sustained periods?

At a Low enough level or if you build her to ignore Hysteria (which i don’t get because that’s playing her as a another Melee frame. Not what she is). If you play like me (no life strike or Healing return but a Arcane Grace that require you to take damage and a Kavat that heals you when it damage a enemy), the 93% DR can fall off on you when you’re reaching lvl 150+. So she can die at high level without Hysteria unless you build her for just Survivability (PS, Maxed Arcane Grace, Maxed Arcane Guardian, Healing melee weapon, Armor and health mods) but that’s like saying “Hysteria is useless and need to be reworked”. Since Valkyr can kill 20 lvl 115 Conculyst in Seconds with just Hysteria, her damage is very high compare to other Melees.

Edited July 17, 2018 by VPrime96

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, VPrime96 said:

At a Low enough level or if you build her to ignore Hysteria (which i don’t get because that’s playing her as a another Melee frame. Not what she is). If you play like me (no life strike or Healing return but a Healing Arcane that require you to take damage and a Kavat that heals you when it damage a enemy), the 93% DR can fall off on you when you’re reaching lvl 150+. So she can die at high level wi5out Hysteria unless you build her for just Survivability (PS, Maxed Arcane Grace, Maxed Arcane Guardian, Healing melee weapon, Armor and health mods) but that’s like saying “Hysteria is useless and need to be reworked”. Since Valkyr can kill 20 lvl 115 Conculyst in Seconds with just Hysteria, her damage is very high compare to other Melees.

Level 150 is kinda beyond the realms of content we're balanced around :P

I don't think Hysteria is useless by any stretch, the panic button to heal yourself is certainly useful. But the Talons as an actual weapon are subpar compared to far too many other weapons.

Yes, you can melt Conculysts with the ridiculous burst it has, but how quickly can you melt a room full of enemies? Far slower than you can with an Orthos Prime, that's for sure.

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

To that I say, why not?

Oh, you misunderstand me, I'm not arguing at all that they can't be better.

I'm just arguing, if you'll pardon the double-negative, that they aren't not-good. I've happily used these abilities above and beyond the normal levels of play (I'm not a long-runner anymore due to life changes, but I used to be, and can still hit the two hour mark when I feel like it) and tested the changes (as we all did) on Valkyr and Excal to see if they really had changed or not. Less testing on Wukong than I should have, to be fair, but that's not really the point.

Whereas, without the additional functions of the frame's Ability Weapons, I found that normal melee just felt... flat and uninteresting, much like an inversion of the OP's feeling.

In any case, we are definitely circling ^^ The OP is being a frilled newt and we can all agree on that.

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Oh, you misunderstand me, I'm not arguing at all that they can't be better.

I'm just arguing, if you'll pardon the double-negative, that they aren't not-good

Gotcha, apologies then. In that case I agree, they're certainly good weapons. Very fun to use and... viable enough for the most part. 

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I don't think Hysteria is useless by any stretch, the panic button to heal yourself is certainly useful. But the Talons as an actual weapon are subpar compared to far too many other weapons.

Not to mention it has really prohibitive energy costs via the changes that ramp up energy costs unlike other Exalted weapons.  And unlike other Exalted weapons you can't even counteract it with Rage/Hunter Adrenaline because of the invincibility mechanic.  So now you have a subpar weapon that costs a lot and you can't really have out for long lengths of time like Exalted Blade or Primal fury.  That's not to say that it isn't great as a survivability mechanic though, but it would be nice if the weapon felt as good as the energy cost is.

[GPrime96]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)ZeroSection said:

Not to mention it has really prohibitive energy costs via the changes that ramp up energy costs unlike other Exalted weapons.  And unlike other Exalted weapons you can't even counteract it with Rage/Hunter Adrenaline because of the invincibility mechanic.  So now you have a subpar weapon that costs a lot and you can't really have out for long lengths of time like Exalted Blade or Primal fury.  That's not to say that it isn't great as a survivability mechanic though, but it would be nice if the weapon felt as good as the energy cost is.

But Valkyr’s Gameplay is Very different from other Melee frames. Her Playstyle is taking damage to fuel up her Rage  (Taking damage to gain energy from Rage/Hunter Adrenaline) before she go into a Rage (use energy in Hysteria). Rebecca did say her Playstyle is Rage (while she got Berserker mechanics with it). Excalibur focus on Swords (Slash dash, Radial Javelin) while fighting from range (Exalted Blade) unlike Wukong or Valkyr and Blind enemies in a LOS Radius (Radial Blind). Valkyr can buff her and her Allies Attack speed and Armor (going Berserk), Use her shields to Paralize her enemies (Gnawing at the iron rim of their shields) and of course heal with she’s Invincible (going into a rage). Wukong can Defy death, become Invisible to the Enemies (unlike the other two) and use a staff that increases range. The Increased energy drain for Hysteria was probably intended for Valkyr because of “take control of her rage” from Lotus lore about her and DE haven’t decreased her drain for a while for Game Balance (or Gameplay in general). What i do know is Valkyr is the only frame that got a built in charge finisher in her Exalted weapon’s Stance.

Edited July 17, 2018 by VPrime96

[(PSN)ZeroSection]

1 minute ago, VPrime96 said:

But Valkyr’s Gameplay is Very different from other Melee frames. Her Playstyle is taking damage to fuel up her Rage  (Taking damage to gain energy from Rage/Hunter Adrenaline) before she go into a Rage (use energy in Hysteria). Rebecca did say her Playstyle is Rage (while she got Berserker mechanics with it). Excalibur focus on Swords (Slash dash, Radial Javelin) while fighting from range (Exalted Blade) unlike Wukong or Valkyr and Blind enemies in a LOS Radius (Radial Blind). Valkyr can buff her and her Allies Attack speed and Armor (going Berserk), Use her shields to Paralize her enemies (Gnawing at the iron rim of their shields) and of course heal with she’s Invincible (going into a rage). Wukong can Defy death, become Invisible to the Enemies (unlike the other two) and use a staff that increases range. The Increased energy drain for Hysteria was probably intended for Valkyr because of “take control of her rage” from Lotus lore about her and DE haven’t decreased her drain for a while for Game Balance (or Gameplay in general).

Yeah and I totally get all that.  Its just my beef with Hysteria is the same beef I have with Effigy on Chroma.  I expected for that brief window that its activate to really be "Zod destroyers of worlds" for the kind of energy cost it has.  Instead I wind up using it to mostly resurrect fallen team mates and cancel it while I ride an Eternal War build.  I don't even generally use it to patch up my health anymore.  It has a better unique flavor unlike Iron Staff, however like Primal Fury the actual melee part feels like I'm questioning if its actual power as a melee weapon is better than my other well forma'd melee weapons. 

[(PSN)vortex2917]

15 waves on hydron was enough to max my umbra exalted blade. Did that 5 times and have tons of forma left. Forma isn't even that hard to come by. If you open relics you'll have plenty.