Please go back as Ash Storm's ability was before

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

If you can't use Ash than just accept that he isn't the frame for you. Do you people really think DE makes frame balances for laughs and giggles?

Old bladestorm Ash was basically a foolproof High lvl Ember who not only annoyed the hell out his team but he wasn't even fun to play. We have like 20+ frames in the game, surely some of them can satisfy your need for a brainless AOE spam playstyle. 

Either learn and accept Ash's current playstyle or use another frame because believe it or not, there are people that enjoy the frame.

I swear people spend more time complaining about frames rather than playing them(reason why people still complain about Mag)

Edit: Just released that you have an Ember profile pic. That explains the thread.

Edited July 21, 2018 by (XB1)Angryspy101

[(PSN)Chel-El]

I made this topic to report some choppiness in console & to share some tips I picked up after leveling 2 Ash in his current state. 

If you need a finisher fix, just get the 3 augment and spam it with efficiency build 

Oterwise his 4 requires practice to manage. Taking him to the plains can help get into his new flow. 

Hope this helps 

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

6 hours ago, tripletriple said:

Hmm, let's use some basic reasoning. 

1. Kills less enemies than before? Check.

2. Uses more energy than before? Check.

3. Less intuitive than before? Check.

4. More annoying to use? Check.

5. Less overall dps? Check.

Now how exactly is he better? 

Gotta disagree with half this list.

Old bladestorm forced you into an animation which not only stops you from progressing though the mission but it even made Ash horrible for any real defense type missions since while you are Killing, more enemies are spawning and you can't deal with them unless bladestorm is finished. Also it didn't even have a guarantee to attack 18 targets and don't get me started on the occasionally 10+ second bladestorm animations when you attack an eximus or an Ancient healer/disrupter while making them invulnerable to your team.

Current bladestorm technically gives Ash more DPS/KPS because now Ash can bladestorm a group of enemies while using his weapons to deal with another group of enemies at the same time, this allows Ash to at least be a decent frame to use in defense type missions. Also keep in mind that with the right build current Bladestorm can actually kill most lvl 100 enemies with 1-2 marks which is hardly much of an energy cost with efficiency.

Current bladestorm's upsides outweigh it's downsides by a lot since it is far more versatile and convenient towards the nature of the game because being able to multitask with your damage and take out multiple groups of enemies around the map or while progressing through the mission is better than focusing on a single group at a time.

Calling current Ash worse is a lie in itself cuz the rework even gave some QoL changes/buffs to Ash's other abilities like Smokescreen and Teleport.

The worst kind of opinions is the ones that deem themselves facts.

Edited July 21, 2018 by (XB1)Angryspy101

[tripletriple]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Angryspy101 said:

Gotta disagree with half this list.

You can't disagree with facts, it's not an opinion...

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

9 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

You can't disagree with facts, it's not an opinion...

 

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Angryspy101 said:

The worst kind of opinions is the ones that deem themselves facts.

 

[tripletriple]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Angryspy101 said:

 

 

Using your own terrible quote to justify misinformation isn't helping you. You are wrong period. It's like me claiming the earth is flat and then posting this to support my claims. 

Quote

The worst kind of opinions is the ones that deem themselves facts.

Nothing posted was an opinion. NOTHING.

[Brorelia]

This game is so much better without ashholes.

[NeithanDiniem]

3 hours ago, tripletriple said:

You can't disagree with facts, it's not an opinion...

Your first point of number of enemies being reduced is fact, but it was changed because locking down so many enemies disrupted the flow of the game and frankly was annoying for anyone playing with an Ash on the team. It being a fact doesn't matter when it was changed because of that fact.

Second point was changed for balance purposes to correspond to how easily spammed it was before, which is another cornerstone to why it was a problem. The current cost is scalable to the usage, costing less for limited uses but more when at maximum while invisible and deciding to join in.

Third is technically true since one can say that a zero thought action in a game can be instinctive.

Fourth was entirely opinion. Annoyance is not a universal truth applicable to everyone just because it is applicable to you, it is a personal thing in its very nature. What one finds as annoying is entirely unique to them.

Fifth is reliant on every one of your attacks with the original being counted, regardless if they were useful or not. In a large mass of enemies yes its total damage from the skill itself alone could be higher, but with the skill now, you can multitask and make up for that damage. In a small group you were locked in the animation regardless if your damage was actually usefully applying to a target, reducing your total damage contribution to the team because you are wasting time in a slideshow instead of running to the next room to kill things. Now you can trigger the attack while marking as you are shooting, killing any enemy that wasn't killed in the sweep while you move along to the next area. Over all, its very subjective to the distinct combat scenarios and conditions in them on if they are comparable. Both have times when they would have made for better damage overall for the team.

So you had two points that were true but didn't matter since they were the root of why it was changed to begin with, and wouldn't really fit for arguing for the skill to return to its original form, one fact, one opinion, and one arguable under specific combat situations. So people can disagree with most of them just fine.

Edited July 21, 2018 by NeithanDiniem

[RoninJed]

12 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

I don't recall players asking for Shells on their back for Ash...But I do recall them asking for clones (to the collective groan of many) and getting it.

Perhaps if you feel that strongly about the Turtles, you should campaign to get those shells or even a pet rat you can call Master?

Nothing wrong with that...You don't know what a "Ninja Theme" is but whatever you cooked up in your head works fine for you.

While I could certainly debate the hyperbole in this sentence it's simpler to agree with you and simply share my thoughts instead.

I think the only players Ash's change shed were crappy faceroll P4TW players who made the frame look bad to begin with.

If that resembles you, I'm glad you don't play Ash now... Ash actually requiring the use of hands now is challenging, I know, but there are still options for you...

Have fun on Saryn or whatever the current Faceroll Of The Month is.

 

 

 

 

Hehe love all the little jabs you get in there...shows that I upset you with my...opinion. 

Oh and for the record I do not use Saryn at all.

[(PSN)Eluminary]

There are active builds in game now that kill far faster than Bladestorm ever did.  diversify your play style in nerfs will never hurt you.  current volt saryn mag equinox builds  can all out kill the old Bladestorm.  It was a slow ability really old blade storm in ESO would probably not kill fast enough to maintain efficiency.

[(PSN)watt4hem]

Bladestorm on a controller means you can literally play with not just 1 hand, but 2 fingers, and still get kills. Yea no thank, that was not fun to play as nor with. And i doubt a filter is a good roundabout, it'll just make multiple queues, prolonging the wait time (warframe is one of those gamesthat actually has decent matchmaking time, let's not.).

[Nazrethim]

hace 10 horas, (XB1)Angryspy101 dijo:

Also it didn't even have a guarantee to attack 18 targets and don't get me started on the occasionally 10+ second bladestorm animations when you attack an eximus or an Ancient healer/disrupter while making them invulnerable to your team.

It had 18m range and 18m radius around the primary target, so that's a 36m radius, if used properly. And speaking of using properly, post nerf I realised that the Eximus thing may have been an anti-spam feature all along. After getting over the bladespam phase (which every Ash passed by at the time) I actually never became locked into Eximus, because I kept my awareness at all times high and used Bladestorm only when all Eximi were dispatched, usually by my teleport or weapons.

 

Now to give some hope to the OP. Yes, old Blade Storm mechanics but with current scaling damage could return if DE does it in a way that prevents mindless spam. For example, what if BS didn't cost energy, but had a bar that needed to be filled by killing enemies first, with kills made by Shuriken and Finishers awarding more "bladestorm bar" than regular kills. Then when you have it ready you just use it or save it for when it's really needed. That's something that could work.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

17 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Actually, if you divide 100 by 18 you get 5.5. That's current per-target cost while invisible, so Blade Storm currently by default costs twice as much as pre-nerf BS.

 

We already had a Priority Target ability in Teleport, even moreso with the augment. BS was always about murdering the grunts efficiently. And where do you get this "x3 damage"  exactly?

 

He kills more, actually. The marking system slows it down.

Well, yeah, the ability costs twice as it did pre-nerf. Unless you use invisibility which brings the cost to nearly the same.

This is true. Mostly because the visual hints don't match the core mechanics. This has simple fixes though.

He is better in the sense he can fight while clones clear grunts. The sh*tty part is that Teleport cannot be used at all during Blade Storm because DE couldn't figure out the fact that BS key is unused during execution and that we may want to set grunts to be dispatched by BS while we use Teleport to bring down priority targets.

 

Correction here. The 2nd and 3rd marks aren't free, they still cost energy, and they are consumed even if the enemy had a sliver of health left after the initial or second attack, wasting energy.

Refunded energy doesn't equal reduced cost.

The press 4 and spin around isn't exactly stellar gameplay.

We go back to square one. So that's a no-no.

 

Correction. Rising Storm is 100% useless. That "100% combo duration" only affects the base combo counter, so at defaul Duration it's just 3s, at 200% duration it's just 6s. It's absolutely pointless and not worth the slot.

 

Actually, it could be made to work with a few tweaks. Namely:

-Cost reduced from 12 to 6.

-Multimarks removed (they don't add anything other than annoyance)

-Interaction with invisibility changed: instead of reducing cost, it makes clones also invisible, so they don't alert the whole planet when you use it to dispatch groups in a "stealthy" way.

-Marking Phase= Smoky effect+Monochrome/Sepia tint. Execution Phase=Smoky effect without Mono/Sepia tint. (gives a visual indicator that clones are still attacking, and it would make marking and execution phase easily distinguishable from each other)

-Rising Storm: Makes reticle a reverse peacemaker, the more targets you mark the bigger the reticle thus making easier to keep marking, reset back to pinpoint after each use. Execution phase: BS damage increases by 10% per mark used, up to 50 stacks, resets to zero when all marks are used.

Correction. Ash works, that doesn't mean he's perfect. And he can't wipe crowds due to Blade Storm being too slow for that. Hell, you would probably wipe crowds faster with a well modded melee than a well modded bladestorm. And while you can do stuff like revive teammates, that's all the utility Ash has in general, due to SShadow not leaving a cloud allies can pickup/passtrough. And let's not forget that BS disables Teleport during it's execution phase, a major flaw that needs to be fixed ASAP.

 

 

I just think the whole marking thing doesn't work in a game like this, unless they want craft his ult around him playing solo. Things are usually dead by the time I mark things.

[tripletriple]

11 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Your first point of number of enemies being reduced is fact, but it was changed because locking down so many enemies disrupted the flow of the game and frankly was annoying for anyone playing with an Ash on the team. It being a fact doesn't matter when it was changed because of that fact.

Second point was changed for balance purposes to correspond to how easily spammed it was before, which is another cornerstone to why it was a problem. The current cost is scalable to the usage, costing less for limited uses but more when at maximum while invisible and deciding to join in.

Third is technically true since one can say that a zero thought action in a game can be instinctive.

Fourth was entirely opinion. Annoyance is not a universal truth applicable to everyone just because it is applicable to you, it is a personal thing in its very nature. What one finds as annoying is entirely unique to them.

Fifth is reliant on every one of your attacks with the original being counted, regardless if they were useful or not. In a large mass of enemies yes its total damage from the skill itself alone could be higher, but with the skill now, you can multitask and make up for that damage. In a small group you were locked in the animation regardless if your damage was actually usefully applying to a target, reducing your total damage contribution to the team because you are wasting time in a slideshow instead of running to the next room to kill things. Now you can trigger the attack while marking as you are shooting, killing any enemy that wasn't killed in the sweep while you move along to the next area. Over all, its very subjective to the distinct combat scenarios and conditions in them on if they are comparable. Both have times when they would have made for better damage overall for the team.

So you had two points that were true but didn't matter since they were the root of why it was changed to begin with, and wouldn't really fit for arguing for the skill to return to its original form, one fact, one opinion, and one arguable under specific combat situations. So people can disagree with most of them just fine.

I'll give you the fourth option ( though objectively speaking 1 button to activate vs now). But 4 others you agreed were true. How you going to say you can disagree with half??

[(PSN)Lowk721]

On 2018-07-20 at 4:44 PM, RoninJed said:

Hehe so you spent what...twenty minutes looking for picture like that to make your point. Find me one with actual ninjas hehe.

The show is a popular anime about ninja with magic. More people likely know about that than warframe. Seeing the connection makes sense.

And I find it hilarious you acting as if warframe does better at being actual ninjas when it does all the same absurd things most fictional ninjas do.

The closest thing to actual ninja Ash has is throwing stars and smokebombs. Teleporting is no more ninja that shadow clones.

[NeithanDiniem]

6 hours ago, tripletriple said:

I'll give you the fourth option ( though objectively speaking 1 button to activate vs now). But 4 others you agreed were true. How you going to say you can disagree with half??

Because two of them were true but were the exact reason why the ability was changed. One cannot use those 2 options to argue that the ability should go back to what it was because then the ability would then be in the same place it was before, causing the exact same issues that made it get changed to begin with. The other two are the only ones that cant be argued with because one is indisputable, while the other is only accurate from specific situations of the skill's use. While the first two also cant be disputed as having been facts, they will never again be facts. The skill could be made more intuitive if enough thought is applied without returning it to its original problem, and the other is situational so it already fluctuates between being more or less effective as the skill was before depending on the exact situations the skill is used in.

Edited July 22, 2018 by NeithanDiniem

[Avynire]

I actually like current bladestorm targeting, but the 3 marking stack kindda annoying. Since the most efficient to max stack is motion sick inducing (trashing mouse around). I wish it gain max damage at 2 stack. 

[Vesiga]

How about no, cause that cut scene was headache inducing. 

[DishSoap]

Okay so let's talk about Ash and why I feel people want to old Bladestorm back. Originally in the era of one trick pony Warframes most Warframes did use one ability, at most two. This was because everything unintentionally pushed you to use one ability if possible. Limited mod slots, limited mod cost, limited energy, and abilities being mods all pushed the player into using the single most cost efficient skill. At this time Ash wasn't in a particularly good spot either, most of the time you wanted to run Shuriken since Bladestorm was a bit unwieldy to use in normal missions, you also needed Smoke Bomb, and finally Bladestorm. However you also then needed to build for Ability Efficiency, Ability Duration, Ability Strength, and Ability Range. So as a Warframe, Ash was somewhat limited to begin with. It also didn't help that nuker Warframes like Saryn and Ember both did Ash's job better. So Ash fell into a niche survival build with Smoke Bomb and Bladestorm.

Now fast forward to today. Ash's Bladestorm is MORE unwieldy and SLOWER to use. This is extremely important to point out since high speed melee combat is currently the way to play. It also cuts out Ash's survivability and steals his invincibility frames away from him. So it's no wonder that people want the original Blade Storm back but, it won't come back because DE is EXTREMELY bullheaded about things. Though I'd rather see Bladestorm reworked into a system similar to Excalibur's Exalted Blade using throwing stars as a base. Giving Ash something unique like allowing him to cling to walls or the ceiling during this mode giving a little bit more of his survivability back to him.

Edited July 22, 2018 by DishSoap

[NeithanDiniem]

3 minutes ago, DishSoap said:

Now fast forward to today. Ash's Bladestorm is MORE unwieldy and SLOWER to use. This is extremely important to point out since high speed melee combat is currently the way to play. It also cuts out Ash's survivability and steals his invincibility frames away from him. So it's no wonder that people want the original Blade Storm back but, it won't come back because DE is EXTREMELY bullheaded about things. Though I'd rather see Bladestorm reworked into a system similar to Excalibur's Exalted Blade using throwing stars as a base. Giving Ash something unique like allowing him to cling to walls or the ceiling during this mode giving a little bit more of his survivability back to him.

You already can get more survivability than you could before by using his smoke screen properly. Use the synergy of your skills right and this is a non-issue here.

[DishSoap]

6 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

You already can get more survivability than you could before by using his smoke screen properly. Use the synergy of your skills right and this is a non-issue here.

Using Smoke Screen also cost energy to cast meaning you have less to do damage with. You CAN just use Smoke Screen and your weapon but, it doesn't fix the problem with Blade Storm.

Edited July 22, 2018 by DishSoap

[NeithanDiniem]

6 minutes ago, DishSoap said:

Using Smoke Screen also cost energy to cast meaning you have less to do damage with. You CAN just use Smoke Screen and your weapon but, it doesn't fix the problem with Blade Storm.

Frankly, if you are at the point in this game where you have to rely on blade storm to kill enough enemies to survive, you are at the point in the game where DE no longer caters to anyways and beyond that is entirely on you to make work or not. A myriad of ways exist for energy replenishment that invalidates heavy spam of abilities being too much of a drain for content up to sorties.

Edited July 22, 2018 by NeithanDiniem

[DishSoap]

13 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Frankly, if you are at the point in this game where you have to rely on blade storm to kill enough enemies to survive, you are at the point in the game where DE no longer caters to anyways and beyond that is entirely on you to make work or not. A myriad of ways exist for energy replenishment that invalidates heavy spam of abilities being too much of a drain for content up to sorties.

I am in no way advocating the return of the original Blade Storm or the need for Blade Storm to be spammable if you read my post. But would the original Blade Storm be better for Ash than the current one? Probably. Ultimately though I'm just pointing out that Blade Storm is not in a good place right now or rather it's never been in a good spot to begin with. So I don't really get why you're being so passive aggressive.

Edited July 22, 2018 by DishSoap

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, DishSoap said:

I am in no way advocating the return of the original Blade Storm or the need for Blade Storm to be spammable if you read my post. But would the original Blade Storm be better for Ash than the current one? Probably. Ultimately though I'm just pointing out that Blade Storm is not in a good place right now or really at all to begin with. So I don't really get why you're being so passive aggressive.

I dont really get why you are taking a simple conversation as aggression?

Old blade storm may improve the Ash in some of the community's eyes, but plenty would likewise dislike the change for the exact same reasons. Its a no-win solution to return it to the original for those playing ash because it upsets as many as it placates, and a full loss for anyone else in the party that isn't Ash because its a return to the original problem. Personally I'm of the mindset to fully replace Bladestorm in its entirety and make something completely new to solve issues with the frame outside of just Bladestorm, but that is my own opinion that is more than likely among the more unpopular of ideas that'll never see the light of day. *shrug*

[DishSoap]

2 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

I dont really get why you are taking a simple conversation as aggression?

Because you personally attack my ability as a player and emphasized that it was my problem? Seems like an act of passive aggression to me.

2 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Old blade storm may improve the Ash in some of the community's eyes, but plenty would likewise dislike the change for the exact same reasons. Its a no-win solution to return it to the original for those playing ash because it upsets as many as it placates, and a full loss for anyone else in the party that isn't Ash because its a return to the original problem. Personally I'm of the mindset to fully replace Bladestorm in its entirety and make something completely new to solve issues with the frame outside of just Bladestorm, but that is my own opinion that is more than likely among the more unpopular of ideas that'll never see the light of day. *shrug*

You're in complete agreement with my original post. The point was that Blade Storm was not in good place to begin with, Blade Storm is in a worse place now, and that it would probably be better for Ash's kit as a whole if they replaced Blade Storm.

Edited July 22, 2018 by DishSoap