From Ember to Wildfire: My idea for an ember rework.

[Sannleikur]

First off, I want to say I love ember. She's one of my most played frames, I've dumped 4 forma in her and she currently sits around 90mil exp. I've tried just about a dozen builds on her. 

I initially didn't like her rework. I thought it was a straight up nerf. It turns out that after moving a few mods around there is nothing different about her at all. Her damage hasn't really gone up, her functionality hasn't changed, her energy drain isn't all that bad, and with a change in mods her range to power ratio is essentially the same. She's still great for most content in game. The problem is she has a very hard and fairly low cap when it comes to damage output, which is effected strongly by scaling armor. This becomes very noticeable in Sanctuary onslaught, Sortie 3, and any mission you take beyond level 100. 

I wish to adjust her abilities to more match her intended playstyle, which is a mix of CC, high damage dealing, all while being highly mobile. You may argue that's only ONE of her playstyles, but lets be fair, DE has stated over and over through the years that this is precisely how she should be played, and attempted to build her that way. Since scaling is the thing to do nowadays, she should also have scaling damage. 

Passives: Her 2 current passives should remain the same, though perhaps she should also be resistant to heat damage to some degree (but not heat procs)

Fireball: Initial damage should be increased to 1000, and a lingering fire trail like the one from Madurai's Blazing dash should be added, while keeping the napalm and charge affects.

The damage increase is to address the fact that this skill does piss poor damage to armored units and in its current state is functionally useless when considering a single shot from most modded guns will massively outclass it. This also keeps in line with other first abilities, albeit maybe slightly weaker still, like Oberon's, or Khora's, or Gara's, Saryn's is obviously much stronger, Atlas's, Ash's, Excalibur's, etc... Frankly even with this buff it won't be near the top of the 1st ability charts. 

Accelerant: Perfect the way it is, it needs no change. It casts fast, it has an aoe stun that helps an otherwise squishy ember survive, it increases damage and cast time. 

Fire Blast: This is a horrible ability, it's best if its scrapped altogether. An ember that stays within the ring will either die, or run out of energy, or both. The damage is horrifyingly bad, the CC is nothing compared to Accelerant's, the damage bonus is meh. 

If its to be kept around, it should at least move with the ember, and its initial duration increased to 30.
     
    Alternative to Fire Blast: Blast Aura: Duration based, not channeled. Adds blast damage to weapons. when hit while aura is up, causes a small duration blind in the direction the shot was fired from. Or instead of the blind, the shot could be reflected back as blast damage/proc. 

World on Fire: Initial Range of 5m, initial damage of 400, initial status of 35%. The more heat procs you do, the more range,damage, and proc chance you get. Max range hard cap of 50m for the aura itself. Max heat damage 100k (can be increased by accelerant, is affected by enemy armor). Enemies affected by heat procs can spread them to enemies nearby, initial spread range of 1m, can increase to a hard cap of 8 or 10, depending on testing. Max proc chance 100%

Energy cost is 3/s, but 2 things can increase your energy costs: standing still for more than 5 seconds will cost you an extra 3 energy a second, standing still for more than 20 seconds will increase it by another 3 energy a second. Not landing a hit on an enemy with your weapons within 10 seconds will cost an extra 3 energy a second, add an extra 3 after 30 seconds. All of the energy drains are affected by efficiency. Duration affects energy drain per second, but does not affect when the punishments kick in. These are safeguards against idle playstyles. 




Initial damage, ranges, and proc chance affected by mods, Incremental increases and decreases affected by mods. Hard capped damages and ranges not affected by mods. 

The initially short range and damage is to more accurately address the problem DE had with ember. Her lazy ability to run thru entire low to mid tier maps and kill everything without lifting a finger. Their attempted fix had almost no impact on that, other than making people want to use ember less. This makes it so you have to earn your range and damage, and you can lose it if you become lazy.


 
 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Sannleikur

[Bouldershoulder]

Why does it have to be another iteration of world on fire? I want to throw exalted fireballs that explode on impact.

 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Bouldershoulder

[Sannleikur]

because WoF is iconic. It just fits her. 

[ShinTechG]

If they buff embers heat damage to scaling, I honestly won't complain lol. But, in my honest opinion, heat damage is great with Ember right now.  2 CP projection auras in the area with her heat damage that the damage overtime increases a lot. Plus gotta remember, unlike other elements like electricity, toxin, etc, Heat Does damage, damage overtime (status procs) AND CC!

I've been testing ember against 155  Corrupted Heavy Gunners, Bombards etc and the heat damage is insane if you use good synergy

[LordViper4]

I agree.

[Sannleikur]

29 minutes ago, ShinTechG said:

If they buff embers heat damage to scaling, I honestly won't complain lol. But, in my honest opinion, heat damage is great with Ember right now.  2 CP projection auras in the area with her heat damage that the damage overtime increases a lot. Plus gotta remember, unlike other elements like electricity, toxin, etc, Heat Does damage, damage overtime (status procs) AND CC!

I've been testing ember against 155  Corrupted Heavy Gunners, Bombards etc and the heat damage is insane if you use good synergy

I'm wanting her to be on the level of saryn, mesa, equinox, excalibur, volt, and banshee in terms of dps over range. At current she's not. 

Everything that doesn't ignore armor or drastically reduce it works better with 2 CPs in the party. Synergy improves everything too. I've tested her against lvl 155 heavies too, with 12 different builds. She's easily outperformed by a whole lot of frames, some of which aren't even supposed to be DPS frames. 

She's amazing low to mid tier, she just doesn't scale. She needs that in order to really compete with other DPS frames. I'd love to be able to use her competitively in elite onslaught or any scaling content.

[ShinTechG]

8 minutes ago, Sannleikur said:

I'm wanting her to be on the level of saryn, mesa, equinox, excalibur, volt, and banshee in terms of dps over range. At current she's not. 

Everything that doesn't ignore armor or drastically reduce it works better with 2 CPs in the party. Synergy improves everything too. I've tested her against lvl 155 heavies too, with 12 different builds. She's easily outperformed by a whole lot of frames, some of which aren't even supposed to be DPS frames. 

She's amazing low to mid tier, she just doesn't scale. She needs that in order to really compete with other DPS frames. I'd love to be able to use her competitively in elite onslaught or any scaling content.

 

Hmm. Would you like me to make a short video clip for you of how powerful ember's  heat damage capabilities are when you use good synergy?

Edited July 25, 2018 by ShinTechG

[Bouldershoulder]

23 minutes ago, ShinTechG said:

 

Hmm. Would you like me to make a short video clip for you of how powerful ember's  heat damage capabilities are when you use good synergy?

I'd like to see it too, if you don't mind. I don't think Ember is weak btw, her damage is just... slow

[Sannleikur]

23 minutes ago, ShinTechG said:

 

Hmm. Would you like me to make a short video clip for you of how powerful ember's  heat damage capabilities are when you use good synergy?

Since you don't believe me when I say I know exactly what it can do, go ahead. Be warned though, I'll almost certainly respond with "I already knew it could do that and still find it lacking in comparison to other frames"

I'll delete this whole thread if your video is sufficiently surprising though. 

[ShinTechG]

23 minutes ago, Sannleikur said:

Since you don't believe me when I say I know exactly what it can do, go ahead. Be warned though, I'll almost certainly respond with "I already knew it could do that and still find it lacking in comparison to other frames"

I'll delete this whole thread if your video is sufficiently surprising though. 

 

 

[Sannleikur]

6 minutes ago, ShinTechG said:

 

 

I already knew it could do that and still find it lacking in comparison to other frames.

Also, my ember kills level 155 corrupted heavies 2x faster than your ember kills lvl 115s. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by Sannleikur

[ShinTechG]

2 hours ago, Sannleikur said:

 The problem is she has a very hard and fairly low cap when it comes to damage output, which is effected strongly by scaling armor. This becomes very noticeable in Sanctuary onslaught, Sortie 3, and any mission you take beyond level 100. 

 

See ya. Cheers 🙂

[Bouldershoulder]

I'll just pretend I didn't see this.

[ShinTechG]

Just for the giggles. Here is the melee weapon build. 

https://imgur.com/a/VQlzH8O

Edited July 25, 2018 by ShinTechG

[ShinTechG]

10 minutes ago, Bouldershoulder said:

I'll just pretend I didn't see this.

lol

[ShinTechG]

21 minutes ago, Sannleikur said:

I already knew it could do that and still find it lacking in comparison to other frames.

Also, my ember kills level 155 corrupted heavies 2x faster than your ember kills lvl 115s. 

Sure. Im always open to seeing everyone's Gameplay. Go ahead and post your Ember vid and weapon build 🙂

[Sannleikur]

3 minutes ago, ShinTechG said:

 

See ya. Cheers 🙂

I have you in check mate and you're walking off as if you won... Cheers to you too. 

The simple fact is my ember setup is vastly stronger than yours, and yet my mesa kills faster and scales far more, My saryn VASTLY outdamages it even without spores ticking high, excalibur's slightly slower but scales way better at even higher levels, Equinox is a slow starter in solo but lets be real here, it has infinite scaling and CC, Banshee's a glass nuke capable of one shotting a group of 155s, Oberon can do the same. 

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

[ShinTechG]

5 minutes ago, Sannleikur said:

I have you in check mate and you're walking off as if you won... Cheers to you too. 

The simple fact is my ember setup is vastly stronger than yours, and yet my mesa kills faster and scales far more, My saryn VASTLY outdamages it even without spores ticking high, excalibur's slightly slower but scales way better at even higher levels, Equinox is a slow starter in solo but lets be real here, it has infinite scaling and CC, Banshee's a glass nuke capable of one shotting a group of 155s, Oberon can do the same. 

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

 

Sure. Go ahead and do the same video. against the same enemies, not paused, no invincibility, in the simulacrum (Even do the 155 if you want since you kill it faster). Equip your Ember. Not saying you are wrong or boasting on who is stronger. This original post was all about Ember and damaging scaling being weak against high level

I would just like to see what other players and good builds are out here 🙂

Edited July 25, 2018 by ShinTechG

[Sannleikur]

I don't do videos. I can invite you to sim though.

[ShinTechG]

Just now, Sannleikur said:

I don't do videos. I can invite you to sim though.

oh nice, sure. I am in game now 🙂

[peterc3]

5 hours ago, Sannleikur said:

perhaps she should also be resistant to heat damage to some degree

This is a no from the devs.

[(PSN)Korgahn_]

I would like to ask a question now that you talk about her. I love that frame too.

Is it useful to shoot a weapon with corrosive proc to lower the enemy armor and let the fire pass trhough ? Or should I keep shooting viral proc on grineer ?

Using corrosive emprex and WOF on group seems quite nice. But I can't tell if it's because I'm having fun or because the combo (weapon+ember) actually works. 😅

[Sannleikur]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Kubbes said:

I would like to ask a question now that you talk about her. I love that frame too.

Is it useful to shoot a weapon with corrosive proc to lower the enemy armor and let the fire pass trhough ? Or should I keep shooting viral proc on grineer ?

Using corrosive emprex and WOF on group seems quite nice. But I can't tell if it's because I'm having fun or because the combo (weapon+ember) actually works. 😅

corrosive+heat tends to work better than viral+heat with ember.

However, amprex tends to work better with viral+hunter munitions since slash proc ignores armor entirely. It halves the enemies hp and does armor ignoring damage pretty much instantly with amprex. Corrosive+ heat would have a buildup to its max damage, often times killing the enemy before you even hit it.

This is the reason why plague zaws are god tier for ember. You can proc viral+corrosive+heat at the same time. combining it with a viral hunter amprex probably wouldn't hurt.  

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

i'll just dump my ideas in here.

"

Passive: Overheat.  As ember casts her abilities she begins building a meter.  This meter as it fills increases the damage of her abilities.  When the bar is full she "explodes" doing a portion of damage to her initially and sets her on fire for a period of time.  The explosion is a fire blast in effect but without the ring.  While ember is on fire her casting /movement speed is faster, she has a flat 45% damage boost, and her abilities cost less energy.

Fireball:  Holding to charge the ball into a napalm is faster by default and faster when in her on fire state.  Napalms can be shot by allies and yourself to make embers spread and set enemies on fire if they get touched by it for a flat 3 seconds.

Accelerant:  Stun time is normalized across all enemy units at 3 seconds.

Fire blast:  Base casting speed is slightly decreased.  Holding to cast this ability makes the ring increase in size (think Gara) and enemies touched by the expanding ring automatically suffer the on fire proc.  Enemies who pass through the ring will take more damage from heat based damage.

World on fire: If ember is on fire there is no ramp up time to the ability.  it's automatically at 100%.  (works out in the end since her passive reduces the drain of the ability when on fire and just means you get the extra damage from ramp asap on top of the extra damage from the passive.)