Why Eidolons Are Not Fun For New Players

[LupoDWolf]

the hard part is only the lures and that no one likes to babysit then.

[TheKazz91]

On 2018-07-29 at 2:15 AM, Aleksi134 said:

They arent for new players thats the thing. Also if you want to run them then use casual groups which are available.

You mean queing into them? Because that is the casual solution. Sorry but if you want the meta Trin, Chroma, Volt, Oberon(I think) with one shoting Lanka's and T4 amps to do two sets of tera/gaunt/hydrolys per night rotation then that's on you to actually go into the chat and find people to run with not the match making service. 

[TheKazz91]

On 2018-08-03 at 9:50 AM, FreeWilliam said:

One thing to add is, as a comfortably not-new player...I don't find the Eidolons all that much fun.  They feel more like a job really, and I get enough of that IRL.

When I first heard about them I had visions of Valkyrs Riplining into them and Atlases Skypunching their arms off with the help of Kiddos using similarly fun abilities with Niduses larva-ing balls of mobs in their faces only to have them exploded by Zephyrs with Sobeks using Acid Shells or something. 

Instead they feel more like old school MMO bosses rather than fun and frantic Warframe action..especially with all the invulnerability gates (I understand the way bullet sponges can get overwhelmed, but was hoping for max damage caps or high resistance, not hitboxes and a complete inability to use melee on them or target them with powers)

That's personal opinion only, but I do think part of the problem here is that for many of us (especially new players) the joy of Warframe is mobile, frantic, and being able to RAWR.

I think the bigest thing that cobtributes to this is that it never tells you that they have like 99% damage resistance to anything bu radiation damage

[(PSN)xZekkenXx]

I definitely get what your saying. I took a well deserved break from warframe around the time when the plains were just starting out fresh. I come back and its Tridolon in every other post in recruit chat. I am a major gamer but still make plenty of time for work, school, friends, and food. Gaming keeps me sane and Warframe is one of those games. After seeing the word Tridolon over and over, I eventually start to hate ignoring it and got jealous of the people doing it, and also since I was a major LOR player and its gone, I got a little bored with the game  again. So anyways the basis of my story is I wanted to Hunt so I took time out of my day to research, read, and watch any and everything I could to help me during my Tridolon runs. Took me like a week or so to feel comfortable with my runs and I progress in skill as I go learning what works for me and what I still need to work on with my practice. Even being a MR 23 with all frames and probably played this game way longer that most of these hunters, most people still require to 150+ to 400+ caps (lol and I think to myself who has time for 400 Hydrolyst?) and when I try to join I myself get call a noob because I only have 30+ caps. I get that people want fast runs with the experienced players but there is no way to get there if they dont take that chance on ya, that's just how our society is. BUT there are teams of players just like you man who are kinda new but can hunt like the rest just not as fast. Get out there and force yourself if you want Archanes and fun. Dont let people hold you back but also do your part to make sure you know what your doing so your not behind and that you dont ruin the game for everyone. Its always ok to make mistakes but dont be a jerk and not learn anything on the way up...  Sorry for the long message lol

[Eirshy]

Find a clan, get them to teach/carry you. Even the old Raid Schoolbus group will do it too these days, iirc.

Two max-geared players can carry a pair of even pre-Second-Dream leaches through 2 tridolons with minimal effort (likely 3 if actually trying).

When you advertise, just advertise as a 3x3 and you'll find the only real elitists you get are usually the people not pulling their weight in the first place lol Can't tell you how many times I've out-damaged the Chroma on Trinity. But the only time I even comment on that fact is if the Chroma starts trashtalking. Pro tip, don't talk trash if you is the trash.

I will note that Chroma is THE "role" to avoid if you're not well-kitted. Volt, Oberon/Harrow, and Trinity all don't really have numerical expectations to live up to, but Chroma does. So if you can't take advantage of a hoster's market, play one of the frames that doesn't really have a gear check. I'd suggest Trin (assuming you know how she works for eidolons and can learn lure-wrangling) because she's both the easiest one to carry a run on (the only real failure condition is "lures die"), and the least popular to play (you manage the only failure condition (actual responsibility), and are playing the "healer").

 

On 2018-09-26 at 8:04 AM, LupoDWolf said:

the hard part is only the lures and that no one likes to babysit then.

Meanwhile you have people like me who refuse to let people I don't know be trin or wrangle because I don't trust them to not screw it up.

I'm dragging this run kicking and screaming to completion, thanks.

 

2 hours ago, TheKazz91 said:

You mean queing into them? Because that is the casual solution. Sorry but if you want the meta Trin, Chroma, Volt, Oberon(I think) with one shoting Lanka's and T4 amps to do two sets of tera/gaunt/hydrolys per night rotation then that's on you to actually go into the chat and find people to run with not the match making service. 

The meta amp is -23 (Any, Shraksun, Lohrin). The T4 parts (Rahn, trash, and Anspatha) are actually rather bad for Eidolons. Trinity can get away with a Pencha (-1-) with whatever brace she wants (I recommend either Juttni (--2) or Anspatha (--4)), since the way her VS stacking works, she's not dependent on crits and thus doesn't need to use a Shraksun+Lohrin combo.

You can do casual 3x3 fairly easily with just a Pencha (-1-) tbh, though a Shraksun Juttni (-22) is the gold standard for forcing a 3x3 without VS stacking.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Eirshy

[Callback]

Part of the reason it's toxic is the night time restriction.  The limited cycles put tight constraints on the run, to where a few extra seconds per tricap can mean the loss of an entire 5th or 4th hydrolyst.  And nobody wants to lose 20-25% of their rewards to such a minor missed optimization.

 

If instead of night-only we had a limit of 5 runs per Cetus day, it would be a LOT more friendly.  Someone causing the run to go a bit slower would be somewhat annoying, but it wouldn't mean you flat-out lose part of your rewards for the cycle, just that you'll have to spend an extra few minutes to get them.  The current system literally doesn't have the time for people to be patient with each-other.  That needs to be fixed.

 

And don't try the lore excuse for why we can't force-spawn night instances to use our daily allotment of tridolon runs.  What's the lore excuse for every continent on Earth, no matter how far apart, perfectly synchronizing day and night?  Or why one small area is not only a different time, but has a completely different length day/night cycle from the rest of the planet?

Edited September 27, 2018 by Callback

[TheKazz91]

I think the other thing that would help is being able to go strait to gauntalyst/hydrolyst if you already had the shards from a previous run/cycle. I think being forced to do all 3 at the same time Deffinately adds to that mentality of "we have to get this done as fast as possible" which creates toxic interactions. For match making if you are going to que into a gaut/hydrolyst it just requires you to have the appropriate shards for which ever one youre starting on.

Edited September 27, 2018 by TheKazz91

[Cuchullin]

The thing about the Eidolans is that it generally is for higher ranked players and most of those sink a fair amount of time into finding the best way to handle them through their own experience. Once they reach a high level they generally don't want to take the time leading less experienced players through the process leading the newer players to try and figure it out themselves leading to a cycle of (a) I put a lot of effort into doing this so you should too or (b) Largely indifferent neither going out of their way to help or hinder just getting the job done. Of course not everyone is like this and there are always people willing to help out but there is going to be that contingent that will have their own way of doing things and come across as bossy and not just on the plains but in other missions as well. I know this is a bit of a rant but some of my experiences have been like this and as a casual gamer myself who isn't necessarily as invested in the most efficient build for max results as others it can be irritating.

[T3ndenziell]

Because this is not World of Warcraft(in current state) where you get anything without anything.

and this is good.

to player friendly(all easy to get) is the death of the Game.

[Cuchullin]

22 hours ago, T3ndenziell said:

Because this is not World of Warcraft(in current state) where you get anything without anything.

and this is good.

to player friendly(all easy to get) is the death of the Game.

True this isn't World of Warcraft. While I'm not so familiar with it's gameplay the main difference I believe is that Warframe is aiming for a high paced team based loot shooter style and misses the mark a little where there is a stark difference where veterans blast through everything and get frustrated by new and casual players slowing the flow or limiting the reward pool. That's just my thoughts on it though.

[MystMan]

Only thing I'd like to mention is that there are 2 eidolon bounties available each night.

The first one clearly mentions only Teralyst while the other shows all three eidolons.   It should be pretty obvious here for a new player that they should start with the first bounty as a stepping stone. They have a whole night to take down only one Eidolon. Once the first bounty becomes easy, that means you have good enough gear and experience to survive and deal decent damage to try out the Tridolon bounty.

I agree everybody starts out as a beginner and has to learn everything but if you don't understand what to do and don't know if you're prepared, why would anybody jump in the deep end of the pool right away?  I don't get it why MR6 people with starter frames and weapons join a tridolon bounty.  They get destroyed by Terry and run out of revives then leave, resulting in an open player slot that won't get filled for the remainder of the bounty. Did they expect to get carried?  If you don't understand how to protect yourself, you'll be bleeding out every minute and eventually the other players will stop reviving you since that takes their attention away from the Eidolon too many times, slowing down overall progress.

New players start out with the easiest challenge (Eidolon bounty 1) and work their way up. Hasn't that always been the norm?  What changed?

[Soki01]

i dont think eidolons are balanced for new players since they are more complex than your average mission

[Reifnir]

On 2018-07-29 at 11:10 AM, IgnisDraconis4316 said:

I am a Casual Player.... I have to be. I have a job a life other than Warframe. Yes I'm willing to learn how to play the game better but I do not have alot of time. If your listening you might be one of us.
As such I am getting tired that everyone wants to do 5 caps a night and will be rude, derogatory or quit when you are doing the caps because 'You don't know what your doing!' I'm here to have fun folks. I'm hear to get my daily stuff and then I have to go back to work..... only on weekends when I relax is when I have more time.

Unless specified otherwise, most Tridolon groups are trying to squeeze as many caps into one night cycle as they can. 

If the state of your warframe(s), weapons and operator gear/Focus doesn't allow you to speedrun them, look for (or even start!) a CASUAL group. You know, by simply typing "H/LF casual/chill Tridolon run". 

Yes, most likely you'll get 1-2 sets done per night like that. But you WILL start getting experience - and you need that if you're planning to improve eventually. Shards and arcanes too. 

Capping Tridolons is NOT hard. Speedrunning said caps at 4x3 and 5x3 is. Don't try to run before you learn to walk. 

 

Also, you do realize that Chroma is probably THE most demanding role in the group, right? Place Unairu wisps when needed, keep an eye on Vex timer, take minimal time to work on limbs/kills, fast-charge the first lure, the list goes on - not to mention you need a truckload of Forma in both your Chroma and your sniper rifle, with a lot of  maxed endo-intensive mods and some experience in sniping in harsh weather conditions - nobody likes to tear Eidolon shields down several times because their Chroma can't aim and they regenerate, and you need to be able to nail that glowing part despite all the SFX going off around you. 

Start with Harrow, maybe Volt. Their role in speedrunning is way easier to grasp - and only switch to Chroma when you really know what you're doing. 

 

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

Eidolons and arcanes are end game contents. If you don't wanna problems with the recruitment and meta players just use the bounties. No one will pretends nothing here, you can bring one-shot chroma or an excalibur with a mk1 braton.

Not players fault if some warframes, weapons and amps can do the job better than others. If i'm an expert hunter with a lot of tridolons capture i want a team equal to me.

Edited October 5, 2018 by (PS4)cleefsentence

[tipsy_princess]

well as it seems problem goes from bunch of sources:
a) good reward - arcanes/platinum for those arcanes, fast focus farm. so people really want to get those no matter what.
b) casual players not realizing they gonna fight vs time instead of fight vs eidolons when they wanna 1x3+. casual that deep they can't even look up for builds/basic tactics before go in. casual SO DEEP you can ask 5/4x3 in RC and get players with 0 caps spam you while having no idea what they trying to get into. that's simply amazing.

c) no good pub queue system restrict people without amps and not maxed warframes from join.

so we get exactly: unprepared player willing for high reward jumping right into hell and being stomped. here they split on two types: some trying to get better and enjoying this, some calling spacemom because world is not fair place and wondering why people being aggressive in only actual task in the whole game.

myself i can see many "new" players 15 and less mr/50 and less caps doing good at this. also there is big difference between people capabilities when they wanna commit into this and when they don't. players under 50 caps doing clean 4x3's aren't that rare, players over 200 performing crap ain't rare too.

*or you might lose alot of new players and casuals* < not correct. tridolons currently the only task actually satisfying high skill requirement so there always gonna be people doing it. people don't stop even after 1k. actually it's one of the best open world+shooter+few players bossfights i seen so far. no wonder it attract people (even the casual ones).

also one more big revelation - all those angry speedrunners with 100+ used to be bad at this at start same as new players. how this even works, hmm ^_^

i would say the real "not fun" part for new players (except those who think everyone owns smth to them) is incredible amount of bugs ruining the hunt and not being fixed. those bugs barely happen on clean-quick runs with no fails, but once you taking shield over 2 secs you will have a great chance to get hell load of troubles not related to bossfight at all. that's the true not funny problem.
the timer, mad tridoloners and high cost for fails - not the problem, it's gameplay.

 

[T3ndenziell]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Cuchullin:

True this isn't World of Warcraft. While I'm not so familiar with it's gameplay the main difference I believe is that Warframe is aiming for a high paced team based loot shooter style and misses the mark a little where there is a stark difference where veterans blast through everything and get frustrated by new and casual players slowing the flow or limiting the reward pool. That's just my thoughts on it though.

for explanation. i have 540h played  and (believe it or not) still no eidolon kill ,hunt in a team.

i play warframe with long breaks 3-4 years,( or more? didnt remember) 

long time before plains. When i came back 1 year ago im going to make new and old quests that i havent finished.

(strongly recomned to make quest "the second Dream" before even thinking about eidolons.)

for eidolons ,operator mode is essential and a custom amp , focus school build (zenurik etc)- as info for you.

 

then im going to pushing stats .  build a custom amp 1-2 weeks ago.(quills reputation farm is a payne in the ass) 

then im pushing and farming fokus and last but not least building a lenka(sniper) . tomorrow is it finished.

my focus the very time was mastery rank(mr17 soon 18) , farming weapons, frames and mods and reputation for factions ergo glast ,red vail etc.

and yet im making plains, eidolon hunt fishing etc.

 

and Warframe wikia is always on when playing.

so you see you are not the only one with no eidolon kill.

and im loving warframe for this--- there is one thing you want and then you must do the work for it.-- feels better then getting all easy.

 

sorry for gramar its not my first language. hope its understandable

 

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by T3ndenziell

[Cuchullin]

@T3ndenziell I'm not disagreeing with you no the effort vs reward in terms of progression. The point i'm trying to make is that the majority of players work the star chart which tend to be 5 min missions which speed through so when people new to Eidolan hunts get started on it that's the general mindset going in.

I've done the first Eidolan bounty a few times in a team and I was fortunate to have a few good runs with someone who was willing to point me in the right direction. It's when people shut newer players down for their lack of efficiency cause they want to get the most out of it (which I do understand) in ways that are basically elitist in mentality that I get a little frustrated.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for being properly prepared for high level missions it's just that more often then not a lot of players fall into a circular process of needing amps/ arcanes to do hunts but having to do hunts to get them. True the single Eidolan hunt bounty is better for doing this but my main point is that many players especially those who are casual or new to it utalize the star chart casual or byte size play-style rather then actually preparing for it which causes frustration on both sides.

I hope I explained where my point of view better.

[Solarsyphon]

I got sick of Eidolons a while back the meta is too rigid and repetitive. Particularly when with any modicum organisation your 3 groups of 3 in an hour. They need some minor quality of life improvements to prevent rage and some variety.

The changes I want are 

A) to soften the time barrier so active lures don't despawn and neither do eidolons effected by lures. To prevent some rage

B) add some more eidolons or modifiers in a random rotation to give variety and maybe mix up the meta little. A daily or weekly rotation even with simple changes could really freshen up the game mode. 

C) Repeat without leaving the plains to cut down on some loading screens 

I would say bug fixes but there is really only one bug I notice which is unexpected teleportation from Eidolons and that is just a minor inconvenience 

[LostMilip]

First of all I love this game, I would defend it to the death, I only put like a 1000 hours into it, but I’m going to put at least another 1000 if its only up to me!

Eidolon hunt is the most annoying, boring, dull-as-dishwater activity in the game currently. I am doing it because I have to for a blueprint, but I hate it, I despise it tremendously.

Low MR First of all DE should put a hard limit to Eidolon Hunts, so I don’t bump into MR0, or MR1 players at hunts. Maybe if a player didn’t do Second Dream, that player can’t do Eidolon hunts, or limiting it to MR, I don’t know. DE put an MR-limit for Baro in the game, the could do something similar with Cetus.

I don’t have any problems with low-MR players, as someone who needed two years to successfully complete the MR 8 Test, I know too well how it feels to be too low level to do certain things, like buying things from Baro. I’m currently at level 18, but I’m still not able to understand/utilize some of the game’s mechanics, partly because of my physical inability, partly because DE doesn’t convey them at all to new players, and don’t even start with the community!

Mote Amp The starting Amp you get is so terribly weak compared to even the first Amp you are able to craft, that it’s mind-boggling!

Easy Everybody says Eidolon Hunt is easy. No, it is not, it is the hardest activity in the game currently, and let me explain why I think that! Easy is when I hit an enemy once, maybe a couple of times, it falls over, and I pick up the loot. When four people are shooting at an enemy for fifty minutes, after which it simply walks away, that is not something most participants would call easy, not in the right mind. And yes, calling those four people incompetent or stupid is a solution, but is it the right one?

There is something else I would like to add after having some terrible experience with a hunt recently: there are no tutorials to how actually do the hunt.

Yes, it is end-game content. Yes, if you don't have your operator, you shouldn't even start a hunt. But when you have never done it before, the first time will very much discourage you, because you sometimes have to attack with your operator, sometimes with your frame, there are phases, there are things you absolutely should know before starting to hunt for Eidolons, because yes, the Eidolon-hunt is end-game content, and as such, you have to know what you should do all the time, otherwise you might end up disappointed, or being called names, if people will even be willing to hunt with you at all.

Edited October 21, 2018 by LostMilip

[nerfinator6]

I just have 3x3, 4x3 and 5x3 blacklisted on recruiting.

 

I don't want anything to do with your cesspool of MUH MLG TRIPLE TRIDOLON people. They are the worst group of people on warframe, besides obnoxious founders, but that's another issue.

[--END--Rikutatis]

Eidolons were specifically designed by DE as endgame content for veteran players. Maybe that's why they're not fun for new players? Posts like this is why DE keeps watering down the game more and more and making everything easy and accessible to new players. WF barely has any sort of endgame content to speak of, and when they do release something, it's usually a half assed compromise to be able to accomodate everyone. 

I have nothing against casuals, no one expects WF to your part time job. But instead of complaining about it on the forums why don't you do like some of us did and attempt to learn the boss fight and get better at it? Aiming, builds, mechanics, gear, there's many things you can do to improve and get better. Or find a different role, Chroma is arguably one of the more difficult ones. I'm not defending toxicity by other players, but asking DE to make eidolon boss fights more "fun" for new players is just completely against the purpose of that content. 

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

2 hours ago, nerfinator6 said:

I just have 3x3, 4x3 and 5x3 blacklisted on recruiting.

 

I don't want anything to do with your cesspool of MUH MLG TRIPLE TRIDOLON people. They are the worst group of people on warframe, besides obnoxious founders, but that's another issue.

Those are the very same people we had on raids. Like, I'm not even kidding, many of the people I raided with are the same ones posting 3x3/200caps and on.

That said I used to go into 3x3 and more Eidolon hunts, but that's because I trained for it, and because I wanted to be done with it as fast as possible. I got burned out half way and I don't have any patience for it even today, 3 months later. I'm just farming it passively and I only do an Eidolon hunt these days like once a month, and one or 2 runs at best per night. I'm here to have fun.

[Cuchullin]

I think the attitudes of some in depth metagamers can be annoying but making the original Eidolan/Tridolan hunts easier will make it lose it's value. I would suggest that increasing difficulty missions on the plains capping at the tridolans would be of more benefit then making things easier. For example there's the bounties which already exist then after that having missions that replicate some of the aspects of the Eidolans to get newer players used to the concept of Eidolan hunts before hitting the Eidolans themselves would be of more benefit then anything else. It's unlikely though considering DE's tendancy to give content, provide bug fixes then leave it alone.

[LostMilip]

On 2018-10-25 at 2:40 PM, Cuchullin said:

I think the attitudes of some in depth metagamers can be annoying but making the original Eidolan/Tridolan hunts easier will make it lose it's value. I would suggest that increasing difficulty missions on the plains capping at the tridolans would be of more benefit then making things easier. For example there's the bounties which already exist then after that having missions that replicate some of the aspects of the Eidolans to get newer players used to the concept of Eidolan hunts before hitting the Eidolans themselves would be of more benefit then anything else. It's unlikely though considering DE's tendancy to give content, provide bug fixes then leave it alone.

I completely agree, I don't think making Eidolon-hunt easier would be a good solution, despite my, or possibly other people's inability. It's end-game content, it should be hard, it should require knowledge and proper application of the game's mechanics! I even like your approach, getting newer players to be used to the new game-mechanics that way would be beneficial, that's not happening currently.

The problem is, and I want to keep this spoiler-free, that by making it an integral part of the main story mission, people who would never touch Eidolon-hunt with a ten-foot pole are forced to take part in them. Yes, it is connected to the main story mission, play Chimera Prologue if you don't understand what I'm talking about.

This one is a spoiler, only read it if you have finished Chimera Prologue, but you still don't know what I'm talking about!

Spoiler

You are only able to build the weapon from Chimera Prologue by hunting for Eidolons. Now maybe that weapon won't be needed in the next story mission, maybe it will only make things easier, but we don't know that for sure!

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by LostMilip

[(PSN)teacup775]

22 hours ago, LostMilip said:

 

  Hide contents

You are only able to build the weapon from Chimera Prologue by hunting for Eidolons. Now maybe that weapon won't be needed in the next story mission, maybe it will only make things easier, but we don't know that for sure!

 

Tera drops the resource. Capping him several times in a nite cycle even solo isnt much trouble even in a pug bounty.