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Rhino Armor Buff


(XBOX)Avant Solace
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When most people think of Rhino, they think of a tank Warframe. Well after being enlightened by this video(language warning) I've come to realize that simply isn't the case. Indeed only one of his abilities gives him any form of "tank" role: Iron Skin. While Iron Skin isn't active, however, he is rather squishy by tank standards. He has somewhat above average shields, but average health and mediocre (190/275) armor, as well as lacking any sort of self-heal. Simply put: without Iron Skin, Rhino cannot be considered a tank.

So we have a problem. Rhino, for all intents and purposes, wants to be a tank. His build is exceptionally bulky to the point of lowering his unprimed version's speed. So naturally people try to build him as a tank instead of a supporter. Unfortunately his Iron Skin depends directly on his armor value, so players sacrifice mod space simply to increase his armor to boost Iron Skin. Not only does this limit his viability as part of a unit, but it is actually futile at higher levels. At around level 75+ Iron Skin can only last a few seconds before succumbing to direct enemy fire, even in the best of circumstances. So in the end, Rhino cannot play a tank at higher levels; not without sacrificing his other abilities at least. And in the instances Rhino is actually built to be a team player, his low grade Iron Skin and armor rating will force him to hide behind his teammate or risk dying from sustained fire.

There is however a simple fix: Buff Rhino's base armor. Now I know what you're thinking, "But if Rhino has more armor, people will just build him to be extra tanky". You are completely correct. People will build him to tank, but now there will be a fair margin for other upgrades. His other abilities can now be given some attention because he won't need quite as much investment to remain a viable tank at higher levels. As for people that do want a tanked out Rhino, its still only a situational improvement at level 75+, seeing as how no amount of armor and iron skin can survive for more than 7 seconds of direct fire. Iron Skin already gives near full protection at level 30-40 anyway, so a moderate buff doesn't really change that fact. In the end, I just want to see a Warframe that can tank and support at the same time, not choose which route to follow.

Thoughts?

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8 minutes ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

When most people think of Rhino, they think of a tank Warframe.

If you completely forget Roar and Rhino Stomp, then sure, Rhino is completely a tank.

How are you having problems with Iron Skin at 75+? The more incoming damage, the stronger it should be. Plus adding in Ironclad Charge...

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His stomp augment replenishes his iron skin based on how many enemies are effected he is a very tanky frame if built right base frames are always suvierly lacking the stats thats the fun of moding them up you can find the best build you like or use someone elses, if you build him for pure strength and his iron skin can go up to 5000 keep in mind that build dose take a minimum of 4 formas  my balance rhino has 2700 iron skin but it cost 37 energy to cast also with the iorn skin augment you can detonate his iron skin and recast it

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Just now, peterc3 said:

If you completely forget Roar and Rhino Stomp, then sure, Rhino is completely a tank.

How are you having problems with Iron Skin at 75+? The more incoming damage, the stronger it should be. Plus adding in Ironclad Charge...

That's exactly my point though. If you just slap on a Steel Fiber mod and time it right, Iron Skin will get you through most stuff up until around level 50. After that point though, additional mods such as Ironclad Charge become essential in pushing it beyond a simple holdover for glancing hits. Not including Exilus and Aura mods, Rhino has only 8 mod slots. Spending more than one or two of them purely for a single skill would be considered a heavy investment.

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Actually, Rhino is more of "golden middle" between being a tank and being an offense unit. He's almost a jake of all trades, really. Bonus damage, bonus survival, crowd control...
But yeah, i think his armor is tiny bit too low for his character. He should have at least 300.

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1 минуту назад, (XB1)alchemPyro сказал:

That's exactly my point though. If you just slap on a Steel Fiber mod and time it right, Iron Skin will get you through most stuff up until around level 50. After that point though, additional mods such as Ironclad Charge become essential in pushing it beyond a simple holdover for glancing hits. Not including Exilus and Aura mods, Rhino has only 8 mod slots. Spending more than one or two of them purely for a single skill would be considered a heavy investment.

I personally use Iron Shrapnel mod. It allows me to recast Iron Skin at will when i need to (and not under heavy fire from 5 level 90 corpus techs).
Then again, ability to dispel Iron Skin at will should've been a mechanic from the start and not be a goddamn augment.

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Just now, Artek94 said:

I personally use Iron Shrapnel mod. It allows me to recast Iron Skin at will when i need to (and not under heavy fire from 5 level 90 corpus techs).
Then again, ability to dispel Iron Skin at will should've been a mechanic from the start and not be a goddamn augment.

I agree. I keep that mod on simply so I'm not caught off guard at higher levels. Really the augment should have been innate, while the actual augment should do something excellent like knockdown any enemies in range or blind them.

This of course rounds back to my "heavy investment" stance saying that more than 1 or 2 mods for a particular ability is typically a dedicated trade-off.

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59 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Rhino only succumbs to level 70 enemies if you don't know how to use his augments. His 1 augment makes him incredibly tanky.

It is true he can become a die-hard tank with the right setup, but the problem simply comes with the fact that you have to choose whether to be a good tank and a mediocre support, or a good support and a mediocre tank.

With a fair base armor buff Rhino's effective health would go from 163%(armor 190) to 200%(armor 300), This would not only give his iron skin a decent buff, but would also allow him to take more health damage before being downed. The end goal is simply to allow him to be a good tank AND a good support at the same time. People can still choose to make him a die-hard tank, but at least in this situation his well-roundedness will get a chance to shine.

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So, your thoughts on making Rhino more like a tank is to ignore what makes Rhino, Rhino. He isn't just a tank, like Excalibur isn't just a Melee frame, and Oberon isn't just a healer. 

 

Rhino doesn't want to be a tank, you want him to be a tank without having to commit to the investment. Iron Skin isn't Hysteria. You shouldn't be depending on it to keep you alive through everything Sortie level and up, but rather give you the time to react and give you CC immunity for things below your attention. 

If you think you ever have to hide behind teammates as a Rhino, you're simply doing it wrong. 

 

Edit: Ironically, I think you missed the most important part of Ashisogi's video. 

 

 

He had absolutely no problem dealing with 4 level 150 HGs shooting at him as long as he had proper timing. Yes, we all know the argument "Ironclad should've been a part of the base kit" just like half the augments in this game, but that's besides the point. If you have a problem with timing your IS properly, use the mod in place of something like intensify and the "tanking" problem essentially doesn't exist. 

Edited by Felixdb
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Use Health conversion. The one that gives you additive armor on gaining health orbs. You don't lose the stacks whilst in iron skin, and Ironclad charge multiplies the armor you get from health conversion. The broken scepter works fine for health orbs (so long as you don't get the bug where it doesn't work the entire mission), you equip iron shrapnel and then put everything else into strength, then streamline and primed continuity. Zenurik gets you energy, so you can have your 135% roar have 100% uptime. Having only 100% range may or may not be acceptable, but considering hitting a crowd with charge easily gets you over 100K iron skin, who cares.

God forbid you get the void buff whilst fighting infested.

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Edited by torint_man
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My problem is why cannot he cast iron skin when iron skin is active? Why do I need to equip an augment to do it? Isn't it supposed be a build in mechanic for the ability? I have like many times my rhino die in an instant because I cannot cast iron skin when i need it. And yes, I definitely think he needs more armor. I mean come on, his name is rhino, why can't he have a lot of armor?

Edited by Williamwaitunnaing
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4 minutes ago, Williamwaitunnaing said:

My problem is why cannot he cast iron skin when iron skin is active? Why do I need to equip an augment to do it?

Balance. Being able to at will recast literal invincibility is a tad bit by the way of OP. Perhaps not that OP, but something substantial enough to warrant the cost of a mod slot. The ironclad charge build is still godly regardless of having to dedicate two mod slots to augments, even better if you use health conversion.

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I mostly use him against high level infested, complete immunity to toxic procs and the other stuff through IS feels really nice. As others have said, there are tricks to make him super durable, but he's supposed to be balanced, not a pure tank like Chroma or Inaros ; he has a bit of all, CC, mobility, damage boost to himself and the entire group, immunit against status effects...

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On 2018-08-08 at 3:55 AM, torint_man said:

Use Health conversion. The one that gives you additive armor on gaining health orbs. You don't lose the stacks whilst in iron skin, and Ironclad charge multiplies the armor you get from health conversion. The broken scepter works fine for health orbs (so long as you don't get the bug where it doesn't work the entire mission), you equip iron shrapnel and then put everything else into strength, then streamline and primed continuity. Zenurik gets you energy, so you can have your 135% roar have 100% uptime. Having only 100% range may or may not be acceptable, but considering hitting a crowd with charge easily gets you over 100K iron skin, who cares.

God forbid you get the void buff whilst fighting infested.

Again: Rhino is fully capable of being a dedicated tank. I am aware. The problem isn't that he can't tank, the problem is that he can't tank WITHOUT sacrificing his other abilities. Iron Skin is his only ability that doesn't benefit from some sort of range or duration boost so these mods, which are vital to upping his support capabilities, never get put on him.

Simply put: He needs higher base armor so he can be a competent tank while still having room to buff his support capability.

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4 hours ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

Again: Rhino is fully capable of being a dedicated tank. I am aware. The problem isn't that he can't tank, the problem is that he can't tank WITHOUT sacrificing his other abilities. Iron Skin is his only ability that doesn't benefit from some sort of range or duration boost so these mods, which are vital to upping his support capabilities, never get put on him.

Simply put: He needs higher base armor so he can be a competent tank while still having room to buff his support capability.

So what you are asking is to have to put less investment to have the same effect for iron skin. You might as well be asking "buff iron skin to make rhino easier to use". (Implying he isn't the easiest frame to use in the game already) If you want to face tank with impunity, you have to invest in it. If you want to increase your range, you have to take away from another stat. God forbid you can no longer face tank with impunity.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Anyways, my build does not cause his support capabilities to suffer (https://goo.gl/Ag8zxG). 127.5% duration and 100% range do just fine. 38 second roar and 25 meter roar and stomp. They do just fine in my experience. Funnily enough, buffing rhino's base armor would do very little for this build.

If you want a build with more efficiency and range, here's an interesting gimmick I just made: (https://goo.gl/xTRbKU). Does this come to your high standards of face tanking and team supporting?

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7 hours ago, torint_man said:

So what you are asking is to have to put less investment to have the same effect for iron skin. You might as well be asking "buff iron skin to make rhino easier to use". (Implying he isn't the easiest frame to use in the game already) If you want to face tank with impunity, you have to invest in it. If you want to increase your range, you have to take away from another stat. God forbid you can no longer face tank with impunity.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Anyways, my build does not cause his support capabilities to suffer (https://goo.gl/Ag8zxG). 127.5% duration and 100% range do just fine. 38 second roar and 25 meter roar and stomp. They do just fine in my experience. Funnily enough, buffing rhino's base armor would do very little for this build.

If you want a build with more efficiency and range, here's an interesting gimmick I just made: (https://goo.gl/xTRbKU). Does this come to your high standards of face tanking and team supporting?

Okay it may seem like I'm asking for a cheesy gimmick buff, but really its more complex then that.

Iron Skin's formula is [Modified Health = (Base Health + (2.5 × Base Armor × (1 + Armor Bonus))) × (1 + Ability Strength) + Absorbed Damage]. Assuming one is using a vanilla mod setup with a maxed Vitality, Steel Fiber, and Intensify; the value for Iron Skin's health becomes 2,856.75 for Rhino and 3,436.875 for Rhino Prime. While this may look like a lot, its actually rather flimsy against crowds of level 45+. However if Rhino had 300 armor and Rhino Prime had 385, the numbers would be 3607.5 and 4187.625, respectively. Its honestly not that much more; all of 2 seconds more invulnerability at level 50. That said, Rhino's actual health gets a huge benefit from this. Rhino goes from having 163% effective health to 200%, and Rhino Prime goes from 191.67% to 228.34% effective health. This allows him to survive much longer with his shield down and without special gimmicks.

My point is less about buffing Iron Skin, and more on making sure Rhino can remain steadfast even when its not deployed. Having one of the single beefiest Warframes in the game get downed after a few direct shots is just a sad display.

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10 minutes ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

Okay it may seem like I'm asking for a cheesy gimmick buff, but really its more complex then that.

Iron Skin's formula is [Modified Health = (Base Health + (2.5 × Base Armor × (1 + Armor Bonus))) × (1 + Ability Strength) + Absorbed Damage]. Assuming one is using a vanilla mod setup with a maxed Vitality, Steel Fiber, and Intensify; the value for Iron Skin's health becomes 2,856.75 for Rhino and 3,436.875 for Rhino Prime. While this may look like a lot, its actually rather flimsy against crowds of level 45+. However if Rhino had 300 armor and Rhino Prime had 385, the numbers would be 3607.5 and 4187.625, respectively. Its honestly not that much more; all of 2 seconds more invulnerability at level 50. That said, Rhino's actual health gets a huge benefit from this. Rhino goes from having 163% effective health to 200%, and Rhino Prime goes from 191.67% to 228.34% effective health. This allows him to survive much longer with his shield down and without special gimmicks.

My point is less about buffing Iron Skin, and more on making sure Rhino can remain steadfast even when its not deployed. Having one of the single beefiest Warframes in the game get downed after a few direct shots is just a sad display.

Current rhino prime EHP: 740/(1-(270*2.1)/(270*2.1+300)) = 2139

Proposed rhino prime EHP: 740/(1-(385*2.1)/(385*2.1+300)) = 2734

2734/2139 = 28% EHP increase.

That does jack for his survivability. Rhino is fundamentally much less survivable outside of iron skin. Take into account status and CC immunity from iron skin and no amount of reasonable armor buffs will make rhino survivable outside of iron skin. I'd rather use the mod slot that you use vitality in for something else anyway. Rhino does not suffer from the stats his abilities use. Neutral or stretch range is plenty, you want to invest in strength regardless because roar, and transient fortitude + PC duration (127.5%) is good enough. Efficiency is trivialized with Zenurik anyway, and if you have 130% efficiency you'll be spamming rhino stomp all day. 

27 minutes ago, (XB1)alchemPyro said:

Having one of the single beefiest Warframes in the game get downed after a few direct shots is just a sad display.

Once you get to the levels you'll actually die in seconds without iron skin active, literally every frame in the game bar inaros dies in seconds if they don't have their abilities active. There is no sad display if you aren't using your abilities. Just because rhino is a tank frame doesn't mean his basic EHP should be high. Leave that to Inaros and Chroma. Rhino's tankiness is balanced around him having 99-100% iron skin uptime. 

Also, remember, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Choose 2: insane survivability, insane CC. Can't have both. You can't get both, and your proposal doesn't give you both either. 

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  • 2 years later...

I am currently aiming of building an end game weapon. I have decuded that Rhino will carry it. Rhinos survivability will come in handy. And dough the weapon by itself can decimate squads of enemies, it will act as a statstick for Rhino. The weapon will increase survivibility by boasting ability strenght, in turn, Rhino will boast the weapon with Roar. Perfect balance! What betr support can you give your team... than killing everything in site in seconds! 

 

Having a meta weapon thats kills, as Doug would say, means nothing if your your frame wnt survive 2 hits.

 

Warframe is interactive, balance between weapon and frame. There are so many options in customizing your setup. 

 

Sometimes you got to choose. What you want, or happiness.

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I am wondering. What is Rhino's support capabilities? 

 

Tanking! and increasing attack.

 

If you got a meta weapon that can literally blow the sh!t outa everything... why do you need a damage increase? (to make the enemies fly further)

 

Rhino is one good Solo frame and it still brings Awesomeness to team play. 

 

(Point and blow up the universe primaries.... as evbod attack Rhino, shoot him in the back. Everybody D.E.D)

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My Rhino build can reach 400k+ Iron Skin alone, no void buffs, no allies. While still being able to put out a 140%+ roar and stomping everything with no problem at all. It has 73% duration and 45% efficiency tho, it doesn't really matter that much.

It has 284% strenght and 145% range. 

Edited by (XBOX)GodMasterTP
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