"ancient Healer *resists* Your Molecular Prime"

[epidaleacalamita]

(...)

Grineer:

(...)They are boosted to 2x max hp/shields, and they go full $*%*storm on you; (+100% damage, ability to shoot through snowglobe)(...)

 

the only thing that doesn't terrify me about this one is that the red will let me know when to ollie outie as fast as i can go. like, so fast, you could be traveling at the speed of light and i'd just whiz by and deafen you with a sonic boom and you'd go "what the hell was that just now, does anyone know because i didn't freaking see it it was moving so fast like god damn"

(but serious part tho: these ideas are pretty great, upboated.)

[r3dzer0]

i realize it was a joke and so was my toxic ancient that really did waltz through bastille to punch me in the face.  I prefer the idea that you have of a mob that has resistances, i just prefer it wasn't all mobs.  Specialized mobs that create a tactical decision of whether i deal with it first or the other mobs is a great boon to the game.  Corpus has a semi implemented tactical aspect to them with their ospreys ( shield and leech) and the same with grineer and their heavy mobs( gunner, napalm bombard).  But there isn't much past shooting them.  mobs that can only be killed through specific means might be cool, but very aggravating to a point.  Like mobs that can't be killed by bullets, but instead by your steel.  or by skills alone, or something to that effect.

 

-snip-

I think you mean to say that you've gone the way of spaceball 1; To plaid :P.

[Phoenix86]

would be great and interesting!

 

someone that can counter our skills

[notionphil]

i realize it was a joke and so was my toxic ancient that really did waltz through bastille to punch me in the face. I prefer the idea that you have of a mob that has resistances, i just prefer it wasn't all mobs.

Can you clarify what you mean? I'm suggesting that only 1/75 mobs would be one of these power resistant, visually distinct mobs.

Do you mean that you would prefer if these mobs (corpus/infested) didn't confer their resistance to nearby mobs?

Edited October 15, 2013 by notionphil

[r3dzer0]

No, i was stating that mobs shouldn't all have resistances, much like your idea 1/75.  Removing a majority of them might actually make ember playable again. 

 

I also think that there should actually be a more varied set of mobs for the game that have these resistances, other than 1 per faction.  I don't mind if they lend their resistances, as you can see i mentioned ospreys lending shields.  it makes them VIPs when targeting.  the same would be with your ancient defender.  take him down or you'll be overran.  i don't think they should be terribly tough tho if they lend their resistance to other units.  But in the end with your idea i leave that to your discretion. 

[akaSM]

Oh and...Overcharged Grineer heavy can shoot through snow globe :)

 

That is how he makes up for not blocking AOE for his team. Grineer are clones, they don't care abt saving lives :P

 

Overcharged Grineer? That's an interesting name change for Grineer Napalms. 

[NalkorRN]

I was reducing entire squads of Grineer to clouds of purple quarks yesterday evening, and got to thinking...

 

In most games where characters can dispose of entire squadrons of enemies with a snap of their finger, there is some sort of mechanic in place to...well, make sure this doesn't work 100% of the time. Like resistance, reflects, fizzles etc.

 

Fizzles suck, obviously and have no place in WF. But maybe some enemies should be power resistant? Like 1 from each faction? Make each a re-skin of a current model to keep it simple. Red or something visible.

 

TLDR: Add power resistant mobs so that there are SOME situations where pressing 4 (or 3) isn't always the best option

 

*AOE here refers to any widespread AOE, ult or not, such as Chaos, M Prime, World on Fire, Snow Globe, Miasma, Bastille.

 

Corpus:

Prism Ospreys (Red Shield Ospreys) nullify AOE powers for any chained unit. Being hit by AOE's increases their shield chain radius. Take em out first and then use your ult. This would not affect single target or small area powers (shock etc).

 

Infested:

Ancient Defenders (Red Ancient Healers) nullify AOE powers for any units in their heal radius IF they are standing up. The AOE triggers a standard heal that does not affect the healer himself. (otherwise he'd be invincible inside a Bastille etc).

 

Grineer:

Grineer Siege Gunners (Red Grineer Heavy Gunners) don't block AOE for other units, but are overcharged by them IF they are standing up. They are boosted to 2x max hp/shields, and they go full $*%*storm on you; (+100% damage, ability to shoot through snowglobe). Overcharge can only affect them once.

 

EDIT

 

- cool side effect...when Heavy/Resistent troops, scattered around the battlefield, become high priority targets, frames which are stealth, direct incapacitators or high single target damage - become important assassins...Ash, loki, nyx, mag (mind control). Finally something awesome for those NON ult smash frames to do!

 

- Thanks to TheHeraldXII for suggesting these should be diff mob types. They would be re-named re-skins with brighter color so they are visible threats. They would also spawn a bit less frequently. We don't want to make ults 100% useless, just add strategic situations to create more critical roles to play - and give other frames options to show their stuff!

You do know that as it stands now, and I have very little faith in Damage 2.0, that heavies doing double damage against the pod/computers through Frost's Snowglobe in Defense/Mobile defense would just cause the mission to fail right?

[notionphil]

You do know that as it stands now, and I have very little faith in Damage 2.0, that heavies doing double damage against the pod/computers through Frost's Snowglobe in Defense/Mobile defense would just cause the mission to fail right?

Then don't use ults on the 1 or 2 glaring red mobs that appears each wave (we are speaking abt def I assume)?

Too much to ask?

[NalkorRN]

Then don't use ults on the 1 or 2 glaring red mobs that appears each wave (we are speaking abt def I assume)?

Too much to ask?

Then allow me to extend the lack of faith to approximately 95% of Warframe's players.

[Lirrea]

Then don't use ults on the 1 or 2 glaring red mobs that appears each wave (we are speaking abt def I assume)?

Too much to ask?

Yes.

Let's consider this:

1) Swarmed by toxic ancients in infested defense/survival.

Nova! Please save us! Except she can't now. Cause you can't use ultis on them to slow them down... Or cc them! Sounds good. You can use Loki to kill him, right? No, cause he will die from toxic clouds before reaching anyone. Everyone else will too. Well, they will probably use Ogris, meh.

I won't mention the Pull, that's ridiculous.

Guess everyone will just use Nyx now in place of Vauban.

Oh wait, another dominant strategy!

 

2) Grineer.

Grineer already have units ignoring the Globe. What were you talking about? Those units will one-shot you anyway. Without cc or something similar it will be instance mission failure.

Adding even more units won't work with old armor in place as it is right now. Experienced players will spam broken character combos, everyone else will qq and leave.

 

3) Corpus.

Corpus already have 2 units fitting your description. Drones ignore ccs, deal insane damage and will fail you if they get inside the Globe.

Rail Moas easily shoot through the Globe for some more one-shotting.

 

Even better, Corrupted have Drones swarming! For instant death in survival if you are not careful enough.

 

Your ideas sound good on paper, but not so good in-game, especially on high-level missions.

As it is, I don’t see any wise way to implement even more variety in cc-defense ignore mobs without reworking damage and armor beforehand.

[Darkreaper006]

DAMN

this is one of the best idea's i've read so far, you sir need more upvotes.

[nekrojiji]

The Idea is great ....spices up our grind, and makes us think.

 

If some of those happen simultaneously as to block most of our AoE damage stacking, we would have to actualy think to find the solution and that's always a good thing.

[Noogums]

This idea has so much potential. I love the idea of more units, especially with this sort of challenging utility.

[notionphil]

Yes.

Let's consider this:

 

"The pod is swarmed with ancients, Nova save us"

 

...[rare situations where Nova can't instakill everything in the level, or some mobs could get through bastille, or shoot through globe....oh no!]....

 

Your ideas sound good on paper, but not so good in-game, especially on high-level missions.

As it is, I don’t see any wise way to implement even more variety in cc-defense ignore mobs without reworking damage and armor beforehand.

 

This depenence on the same 3 tactics is exactly what's killing any diversity in the game. Do you realize that even the exact frames you suggested have abilities to resolve the situations, which you simply haven't thought of?

 

"Oh no there's a Red Ancient coming/here, Nova save us!"

 

First of all, Nova is not your mother, Vauban is not your father, and Frost is not your older brother. They aren't here to save you with the click of a button, every time. Have you ever thought that maybe YOU could save Nova?

 

-Nyx could mind control it

-Frost could freeze it

-Ash could shruiken or TP/melee it

-Vaub could bounce it

-Nekros could soul punch it

-trinity could....well, make the party invincible, CC the mob....etc

-Or....even Nova could AM drop it

 

...i could go on....

 

any of those tactics would instantly neutralize the threat of a Resistent mob. But because they aren't the exact BUTTON PRESS that you're used to, it scares you. Well, the game should scare you at times - it's called a challenge.

Edited October 16, 2013 by notionphil

[Lirrea]

-snip-

 

Eh. I think you skimmed my post without actually reading.

 

-Nyx could mind control it

Sure. As I said. If not immune to CC.

-Frost could freeze it

Well it was immune to CC, no? You wanted lots of immunities, as I can see. But what the hell Frost is doing in infested defense anyway?

-Ash could shruiken or TP/melee it

Had a good laugh over that, thanks.

-Vaub could bounce it

Uh. How will he even time that with enemies swarming?

-Nekros could soul punch it

No.

-trinity could....well, make the party invincible, CC the mob....etc

Yup. Dominant strategy still. Nice thought.

 

It doesn't scare me. I don't know you, you don't know me, but I see you like to assume. I myself actually prefer 'hardcore' games with 'unfair' mechanics. I adore them and abuse them till they love me back.

 

No idea how you missed my point, but it was that implementing richer variety of mobs at this stage of armor/damage is not wise. First they both should be reworked, then sure, why not.

People won't stop playing... They will find new dominant strategy.

Trinity stacking, Ogris for everyone, Nyx in every group.

As I said, they already have mobs that you described. And we already use workarounds for them.

That solves nothing.

[Keetsune]

1) Fix major bugs

2) Rework armor/hp/shield factors

3) And only then do such things like OP suggest.

 

I tired of bug's which overwhelming us with each new addition in this game. This unhealthy tendency to release new additions with new bug's without fixing old bug's make me sick.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Keetsune

[notionphil]

Eh. I think you skimmed my post without actually reading.

 

-Nyx could mind control it

Sure. As I said. If not immune to CC.

-Frost could freeze it

Well it was immune to CC, no? You wanted lots of immunities, as I can see. But what the hell Frost is doing in infested defense anyway?

-Ash could shruiken or TP/melee it

Had a good laugh over that, thanks.

-Vaub could bounce it

Uh. How will he even time that with enemies swarming?

-Nekros could soul punch it

No.

-trinity could....well, make the party invincible, CC the mob....etc

Yup. Dominant strategy still. Nice thought.

 

It doesn't scare me. I don't know you, you don't know me, but I see you like to assume. I myself actually prefer 'hardcore' games with 'unfair' mechanics. I adore them and abuse them till they love me back.

 

No idea how you missed my point, but it was that implementing richer variety of mobs at this stage of armor/damage is not wise. First they both should be reworked, then sure, why not.

People won't stop playing... They will find new dominant strategy.

Trinity stacking, Ogris for everyone, Nyx in every group.

As I said, they already have mobs that you described. And we already use workarounds for them.

That solves nothing.

 

1) Armor/damage is already being reworked FYI. No one is suggesting this takes precedence over that. This is important too, but that is more important.

 

2) I never said CC wouldn't work on the resistant mobs. As stated in the OP - these mobs ONLY resist ults and large scale CC AoE's like chaos/globe/bastille.

 

3) I'm not trying to make it so there are no effective/dominant builds/strategies. I'm suggesting that the exact same combination of four abilities (mp+bastille+chaos+snowglobe) shouldn't be the best in every single situation in game.

 

Right now, that combo outclasses all mobs in the game. There is literally no mob in game that is not totally defeated by that combination + a couple of bullets (half as many as usual, bc of MP). This would be the start of changing that.

 

4)The fact that 3 mob types can shoot through snowglobe, or a drone can get around bastille is irrelevant; that mob will be killed/ccd by the other huge AoE ults. The game needs occasional situations where massive AoE ults/cc's are not effective solutions to problems. I am not trying to address a single ult, I'm addressing the concept of incredibly powerful abilities, used in concert to trivialize all content.

 

5) Soul punch is great for single target CC. Try it sometime. Oh wait, you don't need to bc currently everything is stuck in bastille/chaos, primed by MP or miasma'd by saryn.

 

Shuriken also staggers, pierces enemies, deals 500 x2 armor ignore damage and can be spammed 2 per second. This will take out a rampaging ancient Defender as well.

 

The thing is, we've never had to try using these abilities to save our cryopod/butt/teammate bc the answer is always press 4 to win. I'm suggesting it's getting time to change that.

Edited October 16, 2013 by notionphil

[Telogor]

I say HELL NO!

 

People already can't kill Alad V/Zanuka because they keep downing V (after 2 months!), and you want to make standard mobs have a kill order? I wish I could downvote, but I can't find a button.

 

AoE Ults already become useless at higher levels, and you want to make them useless when new-ish, somewhat-beginner players need them most?  The enemy scaling already weans them off as they get into higher-level content.  Try thinking about negative consequences of these kinds of things before posting them as the best thing since sliced bread.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Telogor

[notionphil]

I say HELL NO!

 

People already can't kill Alad V/Zanuka because they keep downing V (after 2 months!), and you want to make standard mobs have a kill order? I wish I could downvote, but I can't find a button.

 

AoE Ults already become useless at higher levels, and you want to make them useless when new-ish, somewhat-beginner players need them most?  The enemy scaling already weans them off as they get into higher-level content.  Try thinking about negative consequences of these kinds of things before posting them as the best thing since sliced bread.

 

No reason for these to occur on lowbie content anyway. These should start spawning, rarely, on mid level planets, and show up as an uncommon in high level content.

 

Ults are not 'weaned off' in the slightest in higher level content, good sir. The sky rings true with stomp, world on fire, vortex, bastille and of course, mprime incessantly in a constant cadence in nearly every high wave survival/def i've been in.

 

anyway, the goal is to not negate the overall power/utility of ults; it's to make occasional situations occur where they are not the best solution.

[XJHenry]

I like this idea a lot... you take out the weaker enemies with your guns and standard abilities and then you focus fire the defenders, or you take them out and then nuke the crowd. It forces you to think about how you go about things, encourages awareness of surroundings and makes a bunch of frames that are all about their AOE nukes (*Coughcough* Saryn *Coughcough* Rhino *Coughhackwheeze*) more viable in their other abilities. (Okay, maybe I just want to use contagion without feeling bad about it.)

 

I don't think I've read a topic of yours that I couldn't see added into the game proper, Phil. Nice work.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

I do quite agree with this as this would force more strategy.  However, when dealing with high level enemies, they could really destroy the team due to high level enemies pretty much needing those big AoEs (prime for the slowdown, terrify for the debuff, chaos to slow down the enemy attacks, etc). so there would have to be fewer of them at high levels.

[Volume]

please

[Ourobor]

This is fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. I've always hated that at any time I can use an ability to just win(I avoid doing that at all costs because lame). Some things I was thinking about when I was reading this
Suggestion 1: Resistant enemies should not be as tough as heavies
 

I think this is key to making them strategic elements to a fight. If they are really tough, you'd want to prioritize them immediately without even thinking about whether or not you're actually going to need to use abilities. If they're not super tough, then they can be prioritized and eliminated when you use an ability. Too weak, however, and they aren't really all that challenging because they just die and don't inhibit your ability to cast abilities. It'd be a tough balancing act to get them right.

 

Suggestion 2: Normal enemies' AI should group around them and protect them

 

Obviously normal enemies would want to be near the units that give them better protection against the tenno. Tenno are scary. Not only that, they should actively attempt to protect them with real AI; covering their movement, staying near them to increase the threat, etc. It's annoying to me when the way to increase the difficulty of shield drones is just to add more. Why not have one that the units around them protect?

 

Suggestion 3: Only AOE Abilities should cause the resistant enemies to go god mode

 

As you've(OP) suggested before, some abilities should neutralize these enemies where other ones trip them off. There needs to be a (general) distinction between what abilities set them off and what ones do not. All of the suggestions you came up were more or less X target abilities. What if only AOE abilities triggered their abilities. Suddenly a lot of "garbage" abilities are actually good. Freeze is much more viable if it can prevent the AOE resistant mob from going god mode on you. Furthermore, this allows caster frames to still be good. If you're a caster frame, you almost certainly can have a single target ability to deal with the AOE resistant mob. Use that.

[notionphil]

This is fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. I've always hated that at any time I can use an ability to just win(I avoid doing that at all costs because lame). Some things I was thinking about when I was reading this

Suggestion 1: Resistant enemies should not be as tough as heavies

 

I think this is key to making them strategic elements to a fight. If they are really tough, you'd want to prioritize them immediately without even thinking about whether or not you're actually going to need to use abilities. If they're not super tough, then they can be prioritized and eliminated when you use an ability. Too weak, however, and they aren't really all that challenging because they just die and don't inhibit your ability to cast abilities. It'd be a tough balancing act to get them right.

 

Suggestion 2: Normal enemies' AI should group around them and protect them

 

Obviously normal enemies would want to be near the units that give them better protection against the tenno. Tenno are scary. Not only that, they should actively attempt to protect them with real AI; covering their movement, staying near them to increase the threat, etc. It's annoying to me when the way to increase the difficulty of shield drones is just to add more. Why not have one that the units around them protect?

 

Suggestion 3: Only AOE Abilities should cause the resistant enemies to go god mode

 

As you've(OP) suggested before, some abilities should neutralize these enemies where other ones trip them off. There needs to be a (general) distinction between what abilities set them off and what ones do not. All of the suggestions you came up were more or less X target abilities. What if only AOE abilities triggered their abilities. Suddenly a lot of "garbage" abilities are actually good. Freeze is much more viable if it can prevent the AOE resistant mob from going god mode on you. Furthermore, this allows caster frames to still be good. If you're a caster frame, you almost certainly can have a single target ability to deal with the AOE resistant mob. Use that.

 

Great feedback. I agree with all three points. Some small notes.

 

suggestion 1: DE is adding 'commander' mobs which "buff their allies". I'm not sure if these will end up being power resistant. If so, I'd hope they are also more resiliant than heavies...simply because we need some tough mobs in the game.

 

If DE makes the awesome decision to make some mobs power resistant, but weaker/equal to heavies and others into champions which are tougher than heavies...even better.

 

 

Suggestion 3:  Maybe I didn't update/define in the OP enough...Only AoE abilities should set these mobs off. Single target would neutralize them normally as per your suggestion.

[koolen]

good idea