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Ember = trash?????????


Williamwaitunnaing
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Hi, I have been asking many people about ember builds and literally, everyone has said that ember is trash now. I am pretty sure DE is not that stupid to make certain characters unplayable but this is kind of proving the point that I might have been wrong about DE's sense of logic or DE just hates or punishes ember players for some reason. Can someone tell me what is happening in the world of nerfs and buffs?

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There is Zephyr frame which normally doesnt do much, and gender Tornadoes are too chaotic for reliable CC. But on Plains of Eidelon it is a breeze for travel. (also some Mastery Rank test)

SImilar Ember, when it comes to low level Extermination it is blast to play. But as level rise you have small buff, small cc, and small damage (relativly to enemies health and armour).and your range is also small. Trash is too hard.

So if someone asks about putting formas into Ember the honest advise is to give it to Saryn, Octavia, Equinox, Mirage, Excalibur, Banshee, Chroma, Mesa,

It depends what you want.

There is conflict between premise (DPS frame) and practice (buff frame).

There was a problem that top Embers was stomping low level allerts, and that was serious issue. And something has been done, and Embers' problem was cut off.

Edited by felixsylvaris
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Mostly they say she is trash because they cant use her for afk farming as well anymore.

I like to use her for buffing. She got two augments that boost allied damage, and her fireblast adds damage to all bullets going through.

you can set her up for running and ignoring enemies by maxing sprint and using firequake.

buliding for short duration and long range lets her stun a lot of enemies with accelerant.

the rage/flow/quick thinking/vitalitiy combo will work very well for her in just about any bulid, as long as you have some way to heal yourself. 

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2 minutes ago, felixsylvaris said:

There is Zephyr frame which normally doesnt do much, and gender Tornadoes are too chaotic for reliable CC. But on Plains of Eidelon it is a breeze for travel. (also some Mastery Rank test)

SImilar Ember, when it comes to low level Extermination it is blast to play. But as level rise you have small buff, small cc, and small damage (relativly to enemies health and armour).

So if someone asks about putting formas into Ember the honest advise is to give it to Saryn, Octavia, Equinox, Mirage, Excalibur, Banshee, Chroma, Mesa,

It depends what you want.

There was a problem that top Embers was stomping low level allerts, and that was serious issue. And something has been done, and Embers' problem was cut off.

Tornadoes are pretty good for damage now. Bullets shot into the tornado hits everyone affected by them, and includes crit and status. You can also recast them if you wan them in a specific place. 

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She has no survivability with such low armor, and her energy use is a bit excessive.  Needing accelerant to boost damage to other fire abilities,  but world on fire costing more and more energy.   No way to heal naturally.  

I think ember is the sexiest frame but I havent used her alot, before or after her rework.   I even got mine the vermillion skin.  She needs to be tougher or able to heal or something.   Her max HP/Shields also never get very high.   A glass cannnon that now doesnt really kill anything in 1 shot, she has to build up her damage over time so.....

But the worst thing DE did to screw ember was nerf her versus Plaguestar.  She kicked that things ASS and so hey nerf her for it...  wow one time where she is actually really helpful...  

She needs reworked again..   Make world on fire a huge AoE splash damage ability like banshee's power got turned into.   Give Fire ring slightly more range but let Ember have like armor AND OR healing while inside the ring.   Fireball is pretty cool as is...    Accelerant is ok but would be cool if it had buffs or something for Ember 

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Accelerant and FLash Accelerant totally buff Ember itself.

The main issue with Flash Accelerant is that it could turn simple element into complex. Nobody would expect that.

In theory you can Flash Accelerant 3s WoF 3s Fireblast and then finish the job with fireballs. In practice not enoght energy. WoF sustain type does not help with energy regeneration at all.

Overheat is pointless, since we might as well Accelerant and then WoF for exacly burn more energy for more fire.

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Her recent changes didn't affect her power level, they increased her micromanagement (which in effect is a small nerf to survivability). What has happened is:

  • other frames have had buffs (e.g. Saryn) and,
  • late game is slowly creeping up in levels (where flat damage becomes less effective and you want abilities that strip/bypass armour).

She's fine in sorties and kuva floods (for example) if you're able to keep mobile and avoid taking hits.

Edited by schilds
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Use 2 to stun things and boost your damage, and use 1 and 3 to kill and keep stunning thing,  and especially use your weapons to kill things.  Your 4 provides hands-free DPS and supplementary CC, and can also be used to attack enemies through walls when the situation calls for it.  

Most of the haters never understood Ember in the first place.  But if you want the game to play itself without your input, Ember is probably not for you.  

When it comes to modding, focus on high efficiency and high power strength.  Just Stretch is sufficient for range; Overextended is only useful if you intend to stun-lock map tiles by chain-casting Accelerant. ou don't need high duration but have enough so that Accelerant lasts a decent amount of time and WoF's efficiency doesn't tank.  

Avoid Firequake, which is not worth a slot IMO; it's generally not helpful for high strength builds since Heat proc chance on WoF increases with power strength, while on max range builds WoF will end up either knocking down enemies that are too far away to be relevant or just knock down enemies in a short radius anyway which defeats the purpose of long range.

Edited by RealPandemonium
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31 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Use 2 to stun things and boost your damage, and use 1, 3, and especially your weapons to kill things.  Your 4 provides hands-free DPS and supplementary CC, and can also be used to attack enemies through walls when the situation calls for it.  

Most of the haters never understood Ember in the first place.  But if you want the game to play itself without your input, Ember is probably not for you.  

When it comes to modding, focus on high efficiency and high power strength.  Just Stretch is sufficient for range; Overextended is only useful if you intend to stun-lock map tiles by chain-casting Accelerant. ou don't need high duration but have enough so that Accelerant lasts a decent amount of time and WoF's efficiency doesn't tank.  

Avoid Firequake, which is not worth a slot IMO; it's generally not helpful for high strength builds since Heat proc chance on WoF increases with power strength, while on max range builds WoF will end up either knocking down enemies that are too far away to be relevant or just knock down enemies in a short radius anyway which defeats the purpose of long range.

Do you have an end game build I can use? I love ember as the only fire frame but everyone is saying she is too weak to fight end game 

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12 minutes ago, Williamwaitunnaing said:

Do you have an end game build I can use? I love ember as the only fire frame but everyone is saying she is too weak to fight end game 

What do their opinions have to do with you?  You can easily formulate a build based on the guidelines I set in the post above.  Spoonfeeding builds doesn't cultivate good players.  

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3 hours ago, Williamwaitunnaing said:

Can someone tell me what is happening in the world of nerfs and buffs?

The problem, as I've seen it over the years, is that Ember used to be almost Loki-tier for useful in the game and ever since has gone down and down the relative rankings.

No frame is entirely trash tier, but Ember has slipped from god to mere 'okay-ish' over time. An experienced player can take any frame and do well, because they know the game and how to use everything a frame has going for it to actually succeed. But some frames are simply more difficult to achieve results with than others.

In the first reply's case, they pick up Zephyr, but she recently underwent a rework that... okay, it's not perfect, there's a lot of things I can say need improvement, but they added to her kit and gave her some mechanics that make her viable at pretty much every level of play due to having a long-lasting damage mitigation shield, a passive that lets her avoid a lot of problems by not being on the ground, and a combination of close-range CC and wider-area CC in Airburst and Tornado. Knowing how to use them makes them pretty good at everything you can think of.

But Ember doesn't seem to have that anymore.

Let's begin, entering wall-of-text mode:

She used to have Overheat, which was the old form of Accelerant, it buffed Fire damage in a radius around her, but also provided damage reduction that scaled with modding up to pretty high level, around 90-95% as I recall (I could be wrong), so she had a dual-purpose buff that you simply cast for survivability and enemy debuffing. Don't get me wrong, Accelerant is still a good cast, buffing your casting speed, staggering enemies on cast, and adding a massive multiplier to the damage type that Ember deals the most of, giving a min-maxed build that can add 600-800% multipliers onto Fire damage. Without any form of damage mitigation built into her kit, though... things are problematic.

Fireball has always been a rather low-tier ability, it's direct damage that caps out, and while you can buff that damage with Accelerant, it's still pretty low. The only buff it's received over time is that you can now charge it up (something that's annoying to do on consoles) and when it impacts it leaves a 'napalm' ball that deals additional damage and can inflict Fire Status on things. So it's currently considered 'okay' for a 1 ability, not great, but okay.

Fire Blast had two buffs over time, one of them good, one of them just disappointing. The good one is that shooting through it, like Volt's Shield, adds 50% Fire damage to your weapon. If you buff that up with Accelerant casts on the enemy, it multiplies that part of your damage, so your weapon doesn't stop dealing damage and status based on the original spread (although will pick up the ability to deal and proc Fire), but the multiplier can mean you're adding over 250% Fire damage to the actual damage take by enemies, and that's not bad. If you're running a Crit based Viral and Bleed build on a weapon with Hunter Munitions, it uses the multiplied total damage dealt to calculate the Bleed status and so adds comparatively immense DPS to your weapon.

The disappointing one is that a wave was added that staggers and inflicts a guaranteed Fire proc on enemies around you on cast, should be good, but it's an un-mod-able distance of 15m radius, which is very short and rather annoying to play around. It's good for a panic-cast when enemies get too close, but costs too much for that.

World on Fire has gone through several iterations, and the most recent has added something that people feel make it a little useless. The Augment for World on Fire, called Firequake, turned what was a mid-tier damage ability into a Crowd Control ability, which let it scale up beyond where the damage would kill enemies and provide a wide area of knock-down and Status on enemies to add to Ember's survivability now that she doesn't have Overheat's damage reduction.

This was all fine, until DE realised that people weren't using this actively, they were often spending the majority of time AFK on defense points, knocking down enemies that came in range, often out of line-of-sight (meaning the Ember player could be hiding from enemies and still be useful), and letting their team clear with real damage dealers.

They also found that players were so convinced of Ember's lack of survivability that they relegated her to low-tier Extermination and Capture farming, where turning on World on Fire at the start of the level and just sprinting through killed every enemy in range of the ability, often before Ember or any other player saw the enemy, and they were completely cheesing the content.

So DE's recent change put in 'scaling' effects. Over time, the ability scales up to 100%, at which point it is dealing 100% extra damage, but it's reduced in Radius to 50% of the original cast's range.

What this has done, for most people, is ruin their survivability by removing Firequake as an effective Crowd Control. Instead of being able to knock down enemies when they come into range, and reliably keep them knocked down while you deal with them, now Ember has to stay very mobile and bring the CC to the enemy, dealing in very short distances, often finding herself out of range of the enemies that are able to shoot her, and just dying a lot to ranged attacks.

The short of it is this:

Ember is absolutely fine on any content level that can't kill her out-right in a few seconds, and she has the self-buffing and team-buffing to be able to scale up her damage output to reasonably high levels such as Sorties and Kuva Floods at levels 80-100.

But she can't actually survive to deal that damage, most missions, unless she has team-members with her to keep her alive.

The issue then is that, if she's not running alone, why aren't they bringing a frame with better damage buffing, enemy debuffing, and better survivability?

When you compare her to any other damage dealing frame, or any enemy-debuffing frame, all of them have far more reliable damage mitigation or Crowd Control, with Nova, Banshee, Octavia... they all do what Ember does, without being confined to specific damage types, and can survive far better than Ember.

Every other frame that does something similar to Ember... just does it better.

And that's why people say Ember is Trash. Not because she's a bad frame in and of herself, but because she's not actually as good or better in her own way than any other frame. Because she used to be a god... and now she's back of the pack and trying to keep up.

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2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Avoid Firequake, which is not worth a slot IMO; it's generally not helpful for high strength builds since Heat proc chance on WoF increases with power strength, while on max range builds WoF will end up either knocking down enemies that are too far away to be relevant or just knock down enemies in a short radius anyway which defeats the purpose of long range.

I disagree. Firequake actually found its niche after last WoF changes, precisely because it does not rely on power. If you want to CC with WoF, you usually want it to run continously. This means Overheat kicks in, which gimps your range. With Overextended and Stretch WoF's range in overheat is just 17.5 meters, which is the engagement distance for most ranged enemies. Hence, the "too far away to be relevant" situation you describe is anecdotal. It was true before the rework, not today.

Edited by ShortCat
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1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

snip

Frames, for the most part, should be balanced around being good at the game.  Having a few brainless frames is acceptable so that people who have a lower skill ceiling, or are just lazy, can get by.  It's not ok to expect every frame, or even the majority of frames, to be like this.  

Overheat was a low range damage per tick aura with DR capped at 90%.  It did not offer a damage buff.  

Napalm was a major buff to Fireball since it applies quick CC with no opportunity cost.  It can also allow Fireball's direct hit to burn for 18 seconds instead of 6.  The charge takes too long but deals killer damage on a headshot.  

The Hunter Munitions things is pretty obviously a bug.  Knockback on the flame wave would be nice if they fixed the bug where it doesn't affect enemies CCed by Ember's other abilities.  

Firequake was and is bad.  It boggles my mind when people tout it as an essential mod; IMO it's pretty much always a waste of a slot.  You don't use WoF as your main CC as Ember; it's supplemental at best.  This was also the case before the ramp-up revision.  Why rely on a power that can only affect a handful of targets at a time, has a lower range, and requires a bandaid mod to work, when you can just press 2 and stun everything in range, in a much larger radius, for longer (to say nothing of the damage boost?)  Use WoF for its intended purpose, supplemental damage and CC, and you won't be disappointed. 

Accelerant is the "can opener" that lets Ember get close-in on enemies and take advantage of WoF's ramp-up.  Ember Prime also has above-average armor and shields, while base Ember has average defense stats; many players report that they enjoy an energy-tank/lifestrike melee build, particularly since the WoF changes encouraged players to get closer to enemies.  Just because Ember is not Chroma or Nidus doesn't mean she can't survive with a variety of builds.  I don't even bring Redirection anymore on Sorties, running "naked," and get along fine.  

Ember was never a "god," and her main upside is that her design incorporates the kind of cheese that Warframe players have come to expect, but is not quite as mindless as other frames that solve the game with the press of a button.  She encourages an aggressive, free-form playstyle that contrasts with the sterile, methodical play that arises from other, more popular frames whose powers remove gameplay entirely.  Or you can be a loser and spam Accelerant repeatedly; that solves the game, too (but most people don't seem to know this.)  

38 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

I disagree. Firequake actually found its niche after last WoF changes, precisely because it does not rely on power. If you want to CC with WoF, you usually want it to run continously. This means Overheat kicks in, which gimps your range. With Overextended and Stretch WoF's range in overheat is just 17.5 meters, which is the engagement distance for most ranged enemies. Hence, the "too far away to be relevant" situation you describe is anecdotal. It was true before the rework, not today.

If I'm bringing Overextended on Ember, I'm gonna go all the way and just sanitize the map with chain-cast Accelerants.  To me, slotting Overextended just to make WoF sort-of behave like it used too is silly.  Grow a pair and get in the action, or pay the "4x energy tax" to refresh range; it's not like energy even matters anymore in 2018 Warframe.  I will also preempt the claim that WoF's damage contribution is pointless; the damage adds up over the course of the round, even against Grineer, and it kills weaker mobs outright even in Sorties.  It is kind of funny that Firequake ended up becoming an appropriate bandaid when also using Overextended as a bandaid.

Edited by RealPandemonium
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vor 5 Stunden schrieb SpacewalkerX:

Tornadoes are pretty good for damage now. Bullets shot into the tornado hits everyone affected by them, and includes crit and status. You can also recast them if you wan them in a specific place. 

Same goes for melee... where the IPS+elemental proccs in fast succession become the source to feed CO.

Like mf'ing 30x multiplied damage that hits multiple times (from the strike itself x influence from any tonado) is pretty unrivaled.

Same goes for ember who's got her own damage buff, relyable Cc and actuall ability damage.

 

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb SpacewalkerX:

 

vor 59 Minuten schrieb ShortCat:

I disagree. Firequake actually found its niche after last WoF changes, precisely because it does not rely on power. If you want to CC with WoF, you usually want it to run continously. This means Overheat kicks in, which gimps your range. With Overextended and Stretch WoF's range in overheat is just 17.5 meters, which is the engagement distance for most ranged enemies. Hence, the "too far away to be relevant" situation you describe is anecdotal. It was true before the rework, not today.

Oh and i strongly disagree to this. That it doesn't serve as her only Cc doesn't make it unrelable... WoF and Accelerant have a different functionality on different ranges. WoF minimizes gunfire in close range while Accelerant interrupts it alltogether. Firequake raises the Cc chance in close range to 100%, what's a massive survivability boost for her.

Edited by (PS4)CoolD2108
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14 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

If I'm bringing Overextended on Ember, I'm gonna go all the way and just sanitize the map with chain-cast Accelerants.

3 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

while on max range builds WoF will end up either knocking down enemies that are too far away to be relevant or just knock down enemies in a short radius anyway which defeats the purpose of long range. 

Somehow I am questioning this tactic of yours, also the thought process behind certain arguments. Not only is Accelerant spam as CC inefficient and costly it is just not a good alternative compared to commonly used CC Frames, WoF (with augment) just performes better in this role.

23 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

It is kind of funny that Firequake ended up becoming an appropriate bandaid when also using Overextended as a bandaid.

Exactly.

24 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Grow a pair and get in the action, or pay the "4x energy tax" to refresh range; it's not like energy even matters anymore in 2018 Warframe.

I repeatedly said, I do not use cheese like Zenurik or A.Energize to condition myself for lazy gameplay with unlimited energy. Furthermore, justfiying overtaxed abilities with brocken energy system is beyound stupid and only plays in the hands of power creep & brocken game mechanics. This is the most garbage sentence I heared from you. Well done!

38 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

I will also preempt the claim that WoF's damage contribution is pointless; the damage adds up over the course of the round, even against Grineer, and it kills weaker mobs outright even in Sorties.

WoF will indeed clear a lot of trash mobs even in sorties. The thing is, most damage comes from Accelerant debuff, it always worked this way and is still ignored by wannabe Embers, who go for Energy Conversion. You repeatedly speak of her "ramp up damage", which falls into the same wannabe category of players. This ramp up will not hurt heavy units and it is not necessary to kill trash mobs. It is a noob trap. Furthermore, higher range in combination with Accelerant debuff weill net a lot more DPS in the long run, than "hug of fire".

46 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

You don't use WoF as your main CC as Ember; it's supplemental at best.  This was also the case before the ramp-up revision.  Why rely on a power that can only affect a handful of targets at a time, has a lower range, and requires a bandaid mod to work, when you can just press 2 and stun everything in range, in a much larger radius, for longer (to say nothing of the damage boost?)  Use WoF for its intended purpose, supplemental damage and CC, and you won't be disappointed. 

Accelerant is not her main CC; it is her game enabler via damage boost and "Oh snap!" button. But what can you expect from an Ember player, who touches her once a month.

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26 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Snip*

Agree completely. I dont have Arcanes, don't use Zenurik and pretty much disagree with everything Pandem said. Before the change to WoF My build for Ember was a 145% range  168% eff. 96% duration 160 some Str. Firequake build. You used all your abilities when being mobile and shotgunning the heavies. WoF going in the back ground was pretty essential to keeping the enemy waves in check. Accelerant was used to help kill heavies, and eat the mooks even faster if you are getting swamped.

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

The problem, as I've seen it over the years, is that Ember used to be almost Loki-tier for useful in the game and ever since has gone down and down the relative rankings.

No frame is entirely trash tier, but Ember has slipped from god to mere 'okay-ish' over time. An experienced player can take any frame and do well, because they know the game and how to use everything a frame has going for it to actually succeed. But some frames are simply more difficult to achieve results with than others.

In the first reply's case, they pick up Zephyr, but she recently underwent a rework that... okay, it's not perfect, there's a lot of things I can say need improvement, but they added to her kit and gave her some mechanics that make her viable at pretty much every level of play due to having a long-lasting damage mitigation shield, a passive that lets her avoid a lot of problems by not being on the ground, and a combination of close-range CC and wider-area CC in Airburst and Tornado. Knowing how to use them makes them pretty good at everything you can think of.

But Ember doesn't seem to have that anymore.

Let's begin, entering wall-of-text mode:

She used to have Overheat, which was the old form of Accelerant, it buffed Fire damage in a radius around her, but also provided damage reduction that scaled with modding up to pretty high level, around 90-95% as I recall (I could be wrong), so she had a dual-purpose buff that you simply cast for survivability and enemy debuffing. Don't get me wrong, Accelerant is still a good cast, buffing your casting speed, staggering enemies on cast, and adding a massive multiplier to the damage type that Ember deals the most of, giving a min-maxed build that can add 600-800% multipliers onto Fire damage. Without any form of damage mitigation built into her kit, though... things are problematic.

Fireball has always been a rather low-tier ability, it's direct damage that caps out, and while you can buff that damage with Accelerant, it's still pretty low. The only buff it's received over time is that you can now charge it up (something that's annoying to do on consoles) and when it impacts it leaves a 'napalm' ball that deals additional damage and can inflict Fire Status on things. So it's currently considered 'okay' for a 1 ability, not great, but okay.

Fire Blast had two buffs over time, one of them good, one of them just disappointing. The good one is that shooting through it, like Volt's Shield, adds 50% Fire damage to your weapon. If you buff that up with Accelerant casts on the enemy, it multiplies that part of your damage, so your weapon doesn't stop dealing damage and status based on the original spread (although will pick up the ability to deal and proc Fire), but the multiplier can mean you're adding over 250% Fire damage to the actual damage take by enemies, and that's not bad. If you're running a Crit based Viral and Bleed build on a weapon with Hunter Munitions, it uses the multiplied total damage dealt to calculate the Bleed status and so adds comparatively immense DPS to your weapon.

The disappointing one is that a wave was added that staggers and inflicts a guaranteed Fire proc on enemies around you on cast, should be good, but it's an un-mod-able distance of 15m radius, which is very short and rather annoying to play around. It's good for a panic-cast when enemies get too close, but costs too much for that.

World on Fire has gone through several iterations, and the most recent has added something that people feel make it a little useless. The Augment for World on Fire, called Firequake, turned what was a mid-tier damage ability into a Crowd Control ability, which let it scale up beyond where the damage would kill enemies and provide a wide area of knock-down and Status on enemies to add to Ember's survivability now that she doesn't have Overheat's damage reduction.

This was all fine, until DE realised that people weren't using this actively, they were often spending the majority of time AFK on defense points, knocking down enemies that came in range, often out of line-of-sight (meaning the Ember player could be hiding from enemies and still be useful), and letting their team clear with real damage dealers.

They also found that players were so convinced of Ember's lack of survivability that they relegated her to low-tier Extermination and Capture farming, where turning on World on Fire at the start of the level and just sprinting through killed every enemy in range of the ability, often before Ember or any other player saw the enemy, and they were completely cheesing the content.

So DE's recent change put in 'scaling' effects. Over time, the ability scales up to 100%, at which point it is dealing 100% extra damage, but it's reduced in Radius to 50% of the original cast's range.

What this has done, for most people, is ruin their survivability by removing Firequake as an effective Crowd Control. Instead of being able to knock down enemies when they come into range, and reliably keep them knocked down while you deal with them, now Ember has to stay very mobile and bring the CC to the enemy, dealing in very short distances, often finding herself out of range of the enemies that are able to shoot her, and just dying a lot to ranged attacks.

The short of it is this:

Ember is absolutely fine on any content level that can't kill her out-right in a few seconds, and she has the self-buffing and team-buffing to be able to scale up her damage output to reasonably high levels such as Sorties and Kuva Floods at levels 80-100.

But she can't actually survive to deal that damage, most missions, unless she has team-members with her to keep her alive.

The issue then is that, if she's not running alone, why aren't they bringing a frame with better damage buffing, enemy debuffing, and better survivability?

When you compare her to any other damage dealing frame, or any enemy-debuffing frame, all of them have far more reliable damage mitigation or Crowd Control, with Nova, Banshee, Octavia... they all do what Ember does, without being confined to specific damage types, and can survive far better than Ember.

Every other frame that does something similar to Ember... just does it better.

And that's why people say Ember is Trash. Not because she's a bad frame in and of herself, but because she's not actually as good or better in her own way than any other frame. Because she used to be a god... and now she's back of the pack and trying to keep up.

Indeed I pretty much agree with everything. She still works well but they just added more "busy work" pretty much for no noticeable gain for all but melee users. Since WoF range at 100% pretty much goes into melee range if you don't up her range a great deal.

 

7 hours ago, Williamwaitunnaing said:

Hi, I have been asking many people about ember builds and literally, everyone has said that ember is trash now. I am pretty sure DE is not that stupid to make certain characters unplayable but this is kind of proving the point that I might have been wrong about DE's sense of logic or DE just hates or punishes ember players for some reason. Can someone tell me what is happening in the world of nerfs and buffs?

You have to remember to most of the people who call her "trash" there is only 2 levels your either in the meta and top at doing some task, AKA God tier, or your "trash".

Edited by Andaius
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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Andaius:

 

Indeed I pretty much agree with everything. She still works well but they just added more "busy work" pretty much for no noticeable gain for all but melee users. Since WoF range at 100% pretty much goes into melee range if you don't up her range a great deal.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Zenistar

Not exactly a bad place for her to be in if i may say so.

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6 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Frames, for the most part, should be balanced around being good at the game.

Indeed, and, by playing this game extensively with every frame, I can objectively offer the opinion that Ember is not as good at handling this game's content as a vast majority of the others. She can handle most of the content that you throw at her, that's completely true, but just isn't as competent at doing so.

You're fighting the wrong side of this argument, entirely, by the way.

I don't dislike Ember, I actively enjoy her, but if I actually want to be serious about the game, I'm not going to pick Ember to fulfil any role that I could pick another frame to fill.

So all of my comments are designed to explain to the OP the changes that have happened to her over time. Also, thanks for correcting me on the Overheat one, I did forget. I was clear to say that some were good, some were bad, but the good ones were not enough, while the bad ones were attempts at balanced nerfs that didn't go well.

Ember is not trash, I stated that clearly, and some of the things we got for her were steps in the right direction. But that's all they were. Steps.

Ember is not able to take on this game at the same level of active play that other frames are. Her CC is too short for the cost of having to re-cast every time you need it, her survivability rests entirely on spamming that short-term CC, and her damage, while good, is difficult to actually bring to bare on enemies when you're constantly having to stop and recast Accelerant to stagger them.

Firequake was a band-aid, at best, and we're all aware of it, but it did offer a way to actually CC without tapping 2 every few seconds. Nekros had to do that with Desecrate and they changed it so that he didn't suffer from recast after recast after recast. Ember... not so much.

There are so many things you can do with a Fire casting Warframe, but for some reason the direction she's gone has led her to be just... difficult to choose over the alternatives.

Please don't be so defensive. I'm speaking in broad terms, not going into real specifics, and all for the reason of just... explaining to a newcomer without smashing them down with The Big Ember Debate. It's one of the things that I regret about the Zephyr Debates, new people coming into those were kind of... squashed because the players that knew about all the debates before just... info-dumped on them until they went away.

Oh, one more thing:

6 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

The Hunter Munitions things is pretty obviously a bug.

No, that's exactly how it's supposed to function. Using a Crit weapon, it adds DPS regardless, because that's how Bleed Procs work. Accelerant granting damage boosts to Fire damage, then Fire Blast's ring adding Fire damage to your weapon is also the exact combo that DE told us about when they added that function in, I've been using it the entire time since then to great effect, even before HM existed.

Combining one of the best mods for Crit weapons with a Warframe ability combo that specifically adds damage to each shot? Golden.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb Thaylien:

 

Ember is not able to take on this game at the same level of active play that other frames are. Her CC is too short for the cost of having to re-cast every time you need it, her survivability rests entirely on spamming that short-term CC, and her damage, while good, is difficult to actually bring to bare on enemies when you're constantly having to stop and recast Accelerant to stagger them.

The last time i checked it wasn't bound to a excessively long animation plus it isn't a exclusive Cc in her kit... anything from fireball over fireblasts wave up to the probably heat damage you're using is Cc'ing a big part of your enemys...

Accelerant is merely the absolute part of her kit that definitly doesn't have to be used at all times of it isn't for the casting speed buff she also gets.

Does everything have to be absolute for it to be considered good? Wouldn't she be the only frame to do that in the game? I mean think about it...is there even one frame that is able to permanently stunlock Cc while buffing damage on a good power efficiency? 

Banshee was close to that ideal before they fixed her efficiency but now? Same misery and no light Cc on a HORRIBLE efficiency. Ember is a joke compared to that and there's just no way for Banshee to compensate for it if you're not playing the good old in and out of silence game.

That her light Cc is what it is is the sole reason she's able to rage tank...given that, doesn't this balance out her efficiency perfectly? Her stuff is spammy but she's the only frame that actually pulls it off due to all of that...

You'all are giving her waay too little credit no matter the side you're fighting on.

Edited by (PS4)CoolD2108
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45 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Does everything have to be absolute for it to be considered good? Wouldn't she be the only frame to do that in the game? I mean think about it...is there even one frame that is able to permanently stunlock Cc while buffing damage on a good power efficiency? 

Banshee was close to that ideal before they fixed her efficiency but now? Same misery and no light Cc on a HORRIBLE efficiency.

Actually, Banshee still does that, but you're thinking of Soundquake where I'm thinking of Silence, you can move forward and backward to permanently CC enemies with a stagger over and over and over again, using a Duration ability so that you can still regen energy while that's happening.

It's how people use her on long Survivals, and my almost exclusive way of playing her for the better part of three years. Resonating Quake was always a boring gimmick for me, and I very rarely ever had the need for Soundquake in the first place.

On the question, though: no. Things don't have to be absolute to be good. But. There is nothing that says that what we have can't be changed up in its mechanics to ensure that the results of each cast are qualitatively improved.

I mean, think about something completely off-the-top-of-my-head as a suggestion:

Imagine if enemies affected by Accelerant were not just stunned for a few seconds, what if enemies affected by it were, say, then 'booby trapped'? The idea being that Accelerant coating enemy weapons would cause them to backfire or produce an explosion. Just as a theory, then, that would mean that every enemy affected, apart from melee, would then re-target Ember or an objective, attempt to fire their weapon, and be knocked down by a blast proc. Extend the CC, but make it based entirely on whether the enemy is going to attack or not, meaning that you know you have at least until that enemy actually attacks, plus the extra few seconds of them recovering from the proc, before they are a threat again.

Do you know what that reminds me of, as a function? One of the best CC's in the game; Radial Blind. Enemies in that are staggered, but are then blind until they detect something, like an attack or a source of noise like your weapon. They are still blind, however, for the duration of the effect, meaning that any attack they make is blind-fire and is guaranteed not to hit if you're not in that direction anymore.

It's a hard stun, followed by a soft CC for a duration. If Ember had a similar function, then you could count on the duration of Accelerant's CC being at minimum doubled by this, and at optimistic times it could last for up to ten, fifteen seconds if the enemy doesn't attempt to attack for a while.

Does that, maybe, give you a few ideas?

Because I'm not saying 'oh, this is the solution', I'm saying that this as a function illustrates that Accelerant could be improved without messing with the core of the ability and would actually provide the player time between casts when they know they're actually not going to take damage from some sources.

Maybe allow the blast radius of Fire Blast to be modded, able to guarantee fire procs on enemies up to 30m or 40m away instead of just 15m?

Maybe allow placed objects from Ember (the fire from her 1 and 3) to be, in some way, a quasi-shield that 'melts' bullets if she's standing in a direct line from the enemy behind them? Not totally, but like a knock-off Turbulence, meaning that you would have to stand back from the flames, not in them, in order for the 'redirected' or 'melted' bullets to not accidentally hit you.

Something better than what we have is always possible in Warframe.

For some frames, it's not needed. Their kit is so amply strong that even the slightest buff or Quality of Life might actually put them over into broken-tier. But Ember? Definitely. Her kit currently is out-classed by pretty much every frame that has a similar ability.

As I said before, it's not that she's a bad frame in and of herself. It's that she's very hard to justify being picked over another frame aside from just enjoying the play style more.

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2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Using a Crit weapon, it adds DPS regardless, because that's how Bleed Procs work. Accelerant granting damage boosts to Fire damage, then Fire Blast's ring adding Fire damage to your weapon is also the exact combo that DE told us about when they added that function in, I've been using it the entire time since then to great effect, even before HM existed.

Fireblast and Flash Accelerant actually do not add to slash procs, as those are additive buffs, just like Molten Impact does not add to slash procs on weapons like Twin Basolk. Accelerant's debuff on the other hand counts towerds boosted base damage and will increase inflicted slash procs.

Edited by ShortCat
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12 hours ago, Thaylien said:

No, that's exactly how it's supposed to function. Using a Crit weapon, it adds DPS regardless, because that's how Bleed Procs work. Accelerant granting damage boosts to Fire damage, then Fire Blast's ring adding Fire damage to your weapon is also the exact combo that DE told us about when they added that function in, I've been using it the entire time since then to great effect, even before HM existed.

Combining one of the best mods for Crit weapons with a Warframe ability combo that specifically adds damage to each shot? Golden.

Slash proc damage is derived from modified base damage, but not elemental damage.  The effect of the fire ring (and Volt's shield and other such effects) is to append the equivalent of a 50% elemental mod to the end of your mod slots, which shouldn't affect Slash procs' damage calculation.  Even if they did count as "adding base damage" (which they don't,) Accelerant's damage bonus still wouldn't apply to Slash procs' damage calculation.  

9 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Fireblast and Flash Accelerant actually do not add to slash procs, as those are additive buffs, just like Molten Impact does not add to slash procs on weapons like Twin Basolk. Accelerant's debuff on the other hand counts towerds boosted base damage and will increase inflicted slash procs.

Accelerant is a debuff that solely affects Heat damage; why would it count as a base damage increase?  Anyone who has any experience with Warframe's damage calculation formulas will recognize that this is not the way things normally work and is most likely a bug.  

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19 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Somehow I am questioning this tactic of yours, also the thought process behind certain arguments. Not only is Accelerant spam as CC inefficient and costly it is just not a good alternative compared to commonly used CC Frames, WoF (with augment) just performes better in this role.

Exactly.

I repeatedly said, I do not use cheese like Zenurik or A.Energize to condition myself for lazy gameplay with unlimited energy. Furthermore, justfiying overtaxed abilities with brocken energy system is beyound stupid and only plays in the hands of power creep & brocken game mechanics. This is the most garbage sentence I heared from you. Well done!

WoF will indeed clear a lot of trash mobs even in sorties. The thing is, most damage comes from Accelerant debuff, it always worked this way and is still ignored by wannabe Embers, who go for Energy Conversion. You repeatedly speak of her "ramp up damage", which falls into the same wannabe category of players. This ramp up will not hurt heavy units and it is not necessary to kill trash mobs. It is a noob trap. Furthermore, higher range in combination with Accelerant debuff weill net a lot more DPS in the long run, than "hug of fire".

Accelerant is not her main CC; it is her game enabler via damage boost and "Oh snap!" button. But what can you expect from an Ember player, who touches her once a month.

When it comes to game-trivialization Accelerant is kind of like a hybrid of Radial Blind and Rhino Stomp.  It has a relatively short duration, but it does not require LoS and has no cooldown.  Its energy cost is relatively higher than alternatives because of the low duration, but that seems fair to me and doesn't even matter because of all the energy bandaids in modern Warframe.  

Bandaidception!  

Most of this thread's audience exploits all the cheese they can get.  I'm sure they have no qualms abusing energy bandaids.  I try to avoid cheese, myself, since it's not fun otherwise.  If you kill fast enough you don't need the energy bandaids in the first place, anyway.  Max efficiency is all you need.  

There is no doubt that most of your damage potential is in weapons; that's a given.  Making WoF the centerpiece of your build (Firequake is an example of this, too) and play is not a good idea; it is a supplementary power by design.  More damage is more damage; going from 14k single-target DPS (200% powerstr and Flash Accelerant) to 28k DPS is a significant amount of extra damage.  Dismissing the extra damage (as well as the ability to more easily control which enemies it targets) offered by the ramp-up, as you have been doing, is at least a little bit disingenuous.  WoF's damage contribution is significant, and its damage is dealt without an opportunity cost in terms of actions, which makes each point of damage it deals inherently more valuable than other powers' which require you to stop what you're doing to use them.  

Accelerant has been Ember's go-to CC since it was introduced over 4 years ago.  For a long time after that WoF didn't even have a proc chance, let alone the Firequake augment.  I learned to love Ember without all of the bells and whistles that we have today, and each buff just made her easier to play.  You imply here that Ember relies on an augment mod in order to have decent CC, which is silly.  My more recent attempts to use Firequake have invariably resulted in head-scratching as I try to figure out what the hubbub is all about.  Maybe share your build so I can walk on the wild side? 

I've played and appreciated Ember on a regular basis since 2014, and never for the reasons that made her infamously popular in certain circles of players.  Your assumption that I'm an "armchair" expert on this matter is entirely speculated.  

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I just want to share my experience with you all, I've played Ember a lot, like so much, I've done every type of mission with her, all cinematic quests and currently I'm running 3 fashion sets and 2 different builds (gotta love Umbral Ember). Anyways, I was introduced to her as a good low level map nuker that didn't have much to do in high levels, but being the stubborn ijit that I am I kept tinkering until I had a versatil enough Ember to go everywhere and anywhere.

During these, almost, four years I've come often to the forums to seek knowledge and answers from more experienced players but much to my surprise a vast majority expects their way of playing to be the right one or in the worsts cases some other person's way of playing. 

Now, I've played some other frames these pasts weeks and I have to say, playing Ember is not easy, and the payoff is not that great for the effort she requires, I can make an Equinox work with 2 formas and I'll get 3 builds, tons of Focus, and a crapload of map nuking at every level, for most content you can run slash+viral or slash+corrosive and you'll be set, but not with Ember, you need one of the 3 weapons to be able to strip armor and the other two have to have Heat in order to really get a sizeable boost in damage, which will be severely dimished as the enemies scale. Now around here people get two points about Ember wrong, one "She's a glass-cannon, a DPS caster", and two "she's a very specific frame that should be used against specific enemies", when I say people get it wrong I mean Ember can't be glass-cannon if she's out-performed by non glass cannons, the whole point of such class is that advantage in damage at the cost of health points, which is not there, and two there is no such thing as an specific frame, augments, arcanes, focus schools, any frame can do anything.

She is not trash, she's just not a lazy frame to play or a simple one to fit in a comp. 

Her problem is not fitting the meta properly and having an easily abusable ult, and any attemp at fixing one breaks the other,and after long consideration and many changes in opinion I do believe that she could be "fixed" in 3 "simple" steps:

  1. Change Accelerant to affect all Heat based damages(Gas, Radiation, Blast, and of course Heat itself).
  2. Change her Fireblast augment so that the firering moves with her in a smaller radius.
  3. Make WoF into an area around her where Ignited enemies get double damage from Heat and enemies killed during the initial Panic spread the procc at half the cost, the cost of the ability would be an initial Cast and then an arbitrary number for each enemy.

These changes would serve to make her into a proper Buffer, allowing the possibility of hightening her damage without restricting mobility, and giving the player the choice of surgical strikes with  energy effiiciency in mind or throwing energy out of the window for some rapid map nuking (also the last one should play well with Firequakers).

Edited by zzzNitro
completed a half written idea
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