Making Semi-Auto (non-sniper) Rifles Viable, without power creep

[Shpow]

Right now, semi-auto rifles like the Veldt or Tiberon's single-shot mod are not in a good place. They feel cool to use at low levels, but past 50 it gets hairy for no reason when you could just as easily use bows, sniper-rifles, auto/burst weapons, AoE Weapons, or beam weapons with way more ease. Past a certain level, and this is true for all semi-auto rifles, they might as well be bb guns. 

One way to make them occupy their own niche and not be a straight damage creep, while also changing the meta or de facto mods to use would be to make them all have 100% status. 

 

Crazy, right?

Why Would You Do This?

If every shot from a semi-auto rifle procs status, then every shot can count. Other weapons are better at popping nullifier bubbles, or attacking multiple enemies, or long-range engagements, or popping synovia. If this change is applied, semi-auto rifles can forego 60/60 mods or status-buffing mods in order to be hard hitting with damage but not enough to surpass combo-counter or zoom buffs from sniper-rifles. They would, with this change, be in-between the automatics/bursts and sniper rifles, just as their design would suggest. They would have their use -- their niche -- and play a different role to the other ballistic weapons in the game and open up new styles of play as well. 

If I missed anything, feel free to point it out. 

[Urlan]

Semi auto weapons tend to do far more damage per ammo spent than full auto. I have no problem with such semi auto weapons, such as semi auto firing modes getting boosts to represent an increased efficiency per bullet - since mode switch alts don't typically change the base damage but rather the status and critical - would be interesting at least. The Veldt does around the same damage as a Latron prime so its in a decent place for a non-prime Tenno faction weapon, but it would be nice if its zoom had benefits of zooming from snipers. Why else have such a feature?

[Dreddeth]

Semi-Auto rifles are actually in a good spot. While it's true that they deal slightly less damage than Bows or Snipers, they are hitscan (unlike Bows) and don't have an accuracy penalty while hip-firing (unlike Snipers), allowing them to firmly occupy the middle range area where neither of the other two are particularly effective. They also invariably have high enough status chance already, viable or better crit chance, and a huge crit multiplier.

In particular, the Veldt, Latron Wraith, Latron Prime, and Quartakk (which is functionally not a burst rifle at all, but a Semi-Auto rifle with more multishot) are all at least good enough for Sorties and Kuva Floods when you've got the proper build on, and even the Grinlock is okay as opposed to being bad.

As far as alt-firing Primaries, though, the Semi Auto modes of the Hind and Stradavar are probably still hot garbage, and so is the Harpak if you count it, so I can see how you'd come to that conclusion if they were the extent of your testing. Meanwhile, the Tiberon Prime and Zenith are just as amazing on Semi Auto as they are on Full Auto, or in the Tiberon Prime's case, Burst.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Dreddeth

[Shpow]

3 minutes ago, Dreddeth said:

Semi-Auto rifles are actually in a good spot. While it's true that they deal slightly less damage than Bows or Snipers, they are hitscan (unlike Bows) and don't have an accuracy penalty while hip-firing (unlike Snipers), allowing them to firmly occupy the middle range area where neither of the other two are particularly effective. They also invariably have high enough status chance already, viable or better crit chance, and a huge crit multiplier.

In particular, the Veldt, Latron Wraith, Latron Prime, and Quartakk (which is functionally not a burst rifle at all, but a Semi-Auto rifle with more multishot) are all at least good enough for Sorties and Kuva Floods when you've got the proper build on, and even the Grinlock is okay as opposed to being bad.

As far as alt-firing Primaries, though, the Semi Auto modes of the Hind and Stradavar are probably still hot garbage, and so is the Harpak if you count it, so I can see how you'd come to that conclusion if they were the extent of your testing. Meanwhile, the Tiberon Prime and Zenith are just as amazing on Semi Auto as they are on Full Auto, or in the Tiberon Prime's case, Burst.

Can't say I agree at all. The Quartakk is a burst weapon, as it consumes multiple rounds per shot, to get the pedantic stuff out of the way.

I've used all the single-shot weapons except for the latron wraith and prime. They just aren't as good in the vast majority of the game as every other primary weapon class. 

I really, really love the Veldt, for example, and even have a decent riven for it. Still, though, I can't really say using it makes sense for anything other than liking it. Even on Hydron or top tier bounty it just becomes not worth the hassle of trying to land a headshot. I'm better off using the Arca Sisco. 

 

Sure their status is 'high', but nowhere near enough to be an actual 'pro' to use. In fact, in terms of status proc/sec only bows could fall behind - ignoring the Lenz or Mutalist Cernos, of course. 

If you have a guaranteed proc per bullet, though, you're free from 60/60 mods and can change up the build from the other primaries in the game, somewhat. 

 

As is, you're almost always better off with an Ignis Wraith and a lex prime or something. 

[Dreddeth]

1 minute ago, Shpow said:

Can't say I agree at all. The Quartakk is a burst weapon, as it consumes multiple rounds per shot, to get the pedantic stuff out of the way. 

I've used all the single-shot weapons except for the latron wraith and prime. They just aren't as good in the vast majority of the game as every other primary weapon class. 

I really, really love the Veldt, for example, and even have a decent riven for it. Still, though, I can't really say using it makes sense for anything other than liking it. Even on Hydron or top tier bounty it just becomes not worth the hassle of trying to land a headshot. I'm better off using the Arca Sisco. 

 

Sure their status is 'high', but nowhere near enough to be an actual 'pro' to use. In fact, in terms of status proc/sec only bows could fall behind - ignoring the Lenz or Mutalist Cernos, of course. 

If you have a guaranteed proc per bullet, though, you're free from 60/60 mods and can change up the build from the other primaries in the game, somewhat. 

 

As is, you're almost always better off with an Ignis Wraith and a lex prime or something. 

Can I see your builds? I get the distinct impression that you aren't modding these right at all.

[(XBOX)RPColten]

Pretty much all of the semi-auto weapons (and fire-modes) in the game fall around MR 7 and 8 though, so I would say they are in a pretty good spot with that in mind. It seems as though this topic highlights less a need for a semi-auto weapon buff but more an inclusion of some high-MR semi-auto rifles.

A Grinlok Wraith at MR 12, or an MR 11 Corpus single-shot laser (Arca Sisco style), or an MR increase and buff for the Latron Prime. These are also viable options that wouldn't result in total weapon class rebalancing, whether or not the weapon class even needs one in particular.

That being said, I don't see a need for a semi-auto class rebalancing/buff. They lend themselves well for the content levels they're aimed at, and can be taken further with some dedication and practice. Would an increase to their headshot/weak-spot multiplier be enjoyed? Sure, but again isn't really necessary.

[Azamagon]

I'd rather request more reliable crits (and possibly tiny amounts of innate punchthrough, much less so than Sniper Rifles). Like, say, 40% base critchance for Veldt (or its potential future prime version?) and the upgraded Latrons, and 35% for Grinlok (Deadly Sequence would just barely push it past 100%). Wouldn't even mind if that came with some slight reduction in their critmultipliers to compensate.

After all, status is MUCH better covered by various shotguns, beamguns and various explosives (like M.Cernos and Pox), so I dunno if guaranteed statusprocs would be the way to make the semi auto rifles feel a bit more competitive with the top dog weapons.

But having them more reliable in their damage, very fittingly via crits, is honestly just fair. Automatic weapons (and burst weapons, arguably) just overwhelm enemies with tons of bullets, and are vastly easier to handle against crowds, done easily with sweeping motions. Semiauto requires very deliberate targetting, you can't sweep in nearly the same way. And when your bullets either kinda tickle enemies, or bring a ton of hurt (due to currently unreliable crits), it's hard to predict how long you have to keep on with the "deliberately targetting" of an enemy, exacerbating the poor sweeping capabilities even further.

3 hours ago, Urlan said:

-snip- but it would be nice if its zoom had benefits of zooming from snipers. Why else have such a feature?

Oh, I dunno, maybe for flexible ease of use at different combat distances? *shrugs* 😛

[Urlan]

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

I'd rather request more reliable crits (and possibly tiny amounts of innate punchthrough, much less so than Sniper Rifles). Like, say, 40% base critchance for Veldt (or its potential future prime version?) and the upgraded Latrons, and 35% for Grinlok (Deadly Sequence would just barely push it past 100%). Wouldn't even mind if that came with some slight reduction in their critmultipliers to compensate.

After all, status is MUCH better covered by various shotguns, beamguns and various explosives (like M.Cernos and Pox), so I dunno if guaranteed statusprocs would be the way to make the semi auto rifles feel a bit more competitive with the top dog weapons.

But having them more reliable in their damage, very fittingly via crits, is honestly just fair. Automatic weapons (and burst weapons, arguably) just overwhelm enemies with tons of bullets, and are vastly easier to handle against crowds, done easily with sweeping motions. Semiauto requires very deliberate targetting, you can't sweep in nearly the same way. And when your bullets either kinda tickle enemies, or bring a ton of hurt (due to currently unreliable crits), it's hard to predict how long you have to keep on with the "deliberately targetting" of an enemy, exacerbating the poor sweeping capabilities even further.

Oh, I dunno, maybe for flexible ease of use at different combat distances? *shrugs* 😛

If one is tickling enemies with the fewer but much stronger damage semi auto rounds, compared to full auto, yeah you should be running or disabling them in some way other than shooting! Most of those weapons already have pretty solid critical rates base compared to full auto as well. Its a matter of use, have chaff or need to bust a shield? You have the weak but fast full auto. You need to kill in one or two hits? You pull a semi auto weapon.

I would think that having a zoom that gives no benefits to actually helping you kill a foe might be a waste of giving the weapon a sniper looking zoom. Giving the Veldt a sniper like bonus when zooming would give it a niche separate from its Latron cousin.

[Ada_Wong_SG]

I am not sure of the status part, pretty sure Latron is kind of the basic semi auto
so nothing fanciful

Grinlok is high status,

Sybaris is high crit.
You pair off Sybaris with Argon Scope, over 100% crit, which is what you are suppose to do with semi and slow firing weapons... AIM

Dex Sybaris is a Crit monster, you pair off the high ammo pool of 540 rounds with some medium damage rifle.

Sybaris Prime is hybrid Crit and Status

most of the semi auto rifles are kind of needing 2 - 3 forma or even 4 - 5 forma to make them shine.

The issue is not really the damage output but the effective range, 
currently the Semi Auto medium damage (Battle Rifles) is the same as Assault Rifles, 

It would be good if Assault Rifles have full damage within 100 meters, and 
damage drop off beyond which and the next 100 meters the damage is 75% - 50% dropping progressively

And Semi Auto Battle rifles having a range in between Sniper Rifles and Assault Rifles.
 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Ada_Wong_SG

[Shpow]

14 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

Can I see your builds? I get the distinct impression that you aren't modding these right at all.

That's the thing, Primary builds don't often build that differently. You need your multishot, your 60/60+elementals for high status damage, or your crit mods like argon scope. I really don't think my modding is the issue, here. The issue is that, as a whole, these semi-auto shots underperform severely .

13 hours ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

Pretty much all of the semi-auto weapons (and fire-modes) in the game fall around MR 7 and 8 though, so I would say they are in a pretty good spot with that in mind. It seems as though this topic highlights less a need for a semi-auto weapon buff but more an inclusion of some high-MR semi-auto rifles.

A Grinlok Wraith at MR 12, or an MR 11 Corpus single-shot laser (Arca Sisco style), or an MR increase and buff for the Latron Prime. These are also viable options that wouldn't result in total weapon class rebalancing, whether or not the weapon class even needs one in particular.

That being said, I don't see a need for a semi-auto class rebalancing/buff. They lend themselves well for the content levels they're aimed at, and can be taken further with some dedication and practice. Would an increase to their headshot/weak-spot multiplier be enjoyed? Sure, but again isn't really necessary.

1

They're okay for doing the star chart, sure, but they're really outperformed by other weapons in their MR range. I hear what you're saying, some High-MR ones are needed (agreed!) but take a look at some of these other weapons:

 

Ignis Wraith: MR 9

Lenz: MR 8 (Same as the Veldt)

Paris Prime: MR 8

Braton Prime: MR 8

Baza: MR 7

Dex Sybaris: MR 7

Mutalist Cernos: MR 7 (this thing has an AoE effect, which already makes it a hundredfold better than the other single shots)

Soma Prime: MR 7

Tigris: MR 7

Soma: MR 6

The Rubico : MR 6

Kohm: MR 5

Dread: MR 5

MAYBE Fortuna/Orb Valis can change this up and long range would be more important, but looking at how there's that wanted system and Warframe AI is what it is I just don't see how that's going to be true. 

The fact of the matter is this: why shoot one OK bullet when 10 'n'bad' ones can kill the thing faster? The Soma Prime is good enough proof of that, as is the Baza. You're pretty much always better off holding down LMB for the Kohm than ever using a single shot rifle. I don't think that's disputable.

Which brings me to my original point: you (well, I) only really use them because it's fun and harder not because they're good. 

If you have 100% status already then you can very much mod extremely differently to all the other meta since you can't skip 100% status chance like you can crit. As overpowered as this might be you still couldn't spam shots enough to make them broken, but you can take down single targets really quickly at ranges from closeish to mid. The modding flexibility alone should be good enough reason to do it -- especially since it won't be 'broken' levels of OP. 

 

12 hours ago, Azamagon said:

I'd rather request more reliable crits (and possibly tiny amounts of innate punchthrough, much less so than Sniper Rifles). Like, say, 40% base critchance for Veldt (or its potential future prime version?) and the upgraded Latrons, and 35% for Grinlok (Deadly Sequence would just barely push it past 100%). Wouldn't even mind if that came with some slight reduction in their critmultipliers to compensate.

After all, status is MUCH better covered by various shotguns, beamguns and various explosives (like M.Cernos and Pox), so I dunno if guaranteed statusprocs would be the way to make the semi auto rifles feel a bit more competitive with the top dog weapons.

But having them more reliable in their damage, very fittingly via crits, is honestly just fair. Automatic weapons (and burst weapons, arguably) just overwhelm enemies with tons of bullets, and are vastly easier to handle against crowds, done easily with sweeping motions. Semiauto requires very deliberate targetting, you can't sweep in nearly the same way. And when your bullets either kinda tickle enemies, or bring a ton of hurt (due to currently unreliable crits), it's hard to predict how long you have to keep on with the "deliberately targetting" of an enemy, exacerbating the poor sweeping capabilities even further.

11

If you get 100% status innately, you get more reliable crits through mods. If you simply buff crit chance you're still using the same old mods. You kind of get to the same place but with less interesting effects on the economy. That's my main reasoning here. 

 

9 hours ago, Urlan said:

You need to kill in one or two hits? You pull a semi auto weapon.

I would think that having a zoom that gives no benefits to actually helping you kill a foe might be a waste of giving the weapon a sniper looking zoom. Giving the Veldt a sniper like bonus when zooming would give it a niche separate from its Latron cousin.

2

That first part is the sentiment. As for the second, no, I wouldn't want sniper buffs, the zoom is 'buff' enough if the innate stats are good. You shouldn't want to have to be zoomed in for buffs, like a sniper, but rather just be able to shoot mid-high range targets with good stats. 

3 hours ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

I am not sure of the status part, pretty sure Latron is kind of the basic semi auto
so nothing fanciful

Grinlok is high status,

Sybaris is high crit.
You pair off Sybaris with Argon Scope, over 100% crit, which is what you are suppose to do with semi and slow firing weapons... AIM

Dex Sybaris is a Crit monster, you pair off the high ammo pool of 540 rounds with some medium damage rifle.

Sybaris Prime is hybrid Crit and Status

most of the semi auto rifles are kind of needing 2 - 3 forma or even 4 - 5 forma to make them shine.

The issue is not really the damage output but the effective range, 
currently the Semi Auto medium damage (Battle Rifles) is the same as Assault Rifles, 

It would be good if Assault Rifles have full damage within 100 meters, and 
damage drop off beyond which and the next 100 meters the damage is 75% - 50% dropping progressively

And Semi Auto Battle rifles having a range in between Sniper Rifles and Assault Rifles.
 

The Sybaris are, for what it's worth, burst weapons. And besides, 4-5 forma can make pretty much any weapon good: next you'll say that they're fine if you get a riven for them...But I do agree about auto rifle range, but they'd have to fix shotguns (well, some of them) for that matter too. 

[Urlan]

14 hours ago, Shpow said:

That first part is the sentiment. As for the second, no, I wouldn't want sniper buffs, the zoom is 'buff' enough if the innate stats are good. You shouldn't want to have to be zoomed in for buffs, like a sniper, but rather just be able to shoot mid-high range targets with good stats.

If that is the case, your desire is already done, the Veldt does about the same damage as a Prime weapon without being a prime weapon, and being Tenno/Orokin already allowing it to be primed later. If the gimmick doesn't need to be useful in universe, it does a perfectly fine job of being the level of a Latron prime without being the Latron prime. losing a little critical multiplier but gaining better reload.

The Zoom itself is somewhat wasted being non-functional as it doesn't increase the weapon's max distance and the default firing zoom is better than average like its cousin, the Latron prime. Want the weapon to stand on its own without 'power creep', give its gimmick a sniper-like quality or boost. Its already one of the higher base damage semi autos, tied with the Latron prime.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Urlan

[ShiraHagane]

15 hours ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

I am not sure of the status part, pretty sure Latron is kind of the basic semi auto
so nothing fanciful

Grinlok is high status,

Sybaris is high crit.
You pair off Sybaris with Argon Scope, over 100% crit, which is what you are suppose to do with semi and slow firing weapons... AIM

Dex Sybaris is a Crit monster, you pair off the high ammo pool of 540 rounds with some medium damage rifle.

Sybaris Prime is hybrid Crit and Status

most of the semi auto rifles are kind of needing 2 - 3 forma or even 4 - 5 forma to make them shine.

The issue is not really the damage output but the effective range, 
currently the Semi Auto medium damage (Battle Rifles) is the same as Assault Rifles, 

It would be good if Assault Rifles have full damage within 100 meters, and 
damage drop off beyond which and the next 100 meters the damage is 75% - 50% dropping progressively

And Semi Auto Battle rifles having a range in between Sniper Rifles and Assault Rifles.
 

sybaris is the best semi auto rifle and it's a burst 🤔

[Dreddeth]

15 hours ago, Shpow said:

your 60/60+elementals for high status damage, or your crit mods like argon scope.

That is where you have failed. Almost every semi-auto rifle in the game is meant to be hybrid-built, with both crit AND status mods. If you're not leveraging both, you're not going to get much out of them. Furthermore, you've evaded the question with this statement.

15 hours ago, Shpow said:

[a bunch of AoE weapons like the Ignis and Lenz]

Now you're moving the goalposts. The comparison is between Snipers, semi-auto Rifles, and (most) Bows, which at least all have the same general purpose in single target elimination, and not between them and any other weapon type. All three of these weapon types, and also the Tigris series, which is the same concept in Shotgun form, lose out to the Lenz, Ignis, Zarr, etc. in terms of efficiency vs. crowds.

15 hours ago, Shpow said:

[automatics which aren't even particularly good without more investment, like the Baza, or which are straight up bad like the vanilla Soma]

The Baza, while actually pretty nice stats-wise, has the damage falloff range of a good sneeze and isn't even ammo-efficient inside that range without a Riven. The vanilla Soma on the other hand, is actually bad. Yes it can crit, but it has neither base damage nor status chance, and unless you're in a premade squad running 4* Corrosive Projection, the only good thing about Slash is its proc. This is setting aside the fact that, again, such comparisons are nothing more than you moving the goalposts to a technically more defensible but objectively less relevant position.

Granted, I'm actually curious to see how the Latron Prime stacks up vs. the Paris Prime and Braton Prime, even if the Braton Prime is beyond the scope of your argument. I already know that the Latron Prime typically stays relevant for longer than the Dread in Endless missions due to it being Puncture-heavy and better at inflicting Status procs. I'm not interested in how it compares to the Sybaris series, because the Dex and Prime versions of the Sybaris tend to dump on any other single-target primary not named "Tigris Prime" or "Hema."

Edited August 16, 2018 by Dreddeth

[Shpow]

17 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

That is where you have failed. Almost every semi-auto rifle in the game is meant to be hybrid-built, with both crit AND status mods. If you're not leveraging both, you're not going to get much out of them. Furthermore, you've evaded the question with this statement.

Now you're moving the goalposts. The comparison is between Snipers, semi-auto Rifles, and (most) Bows, which at least all have the same general purpose in single target elimination, and not between them and any other weapon type. All three of these weapon types, and also the Tigris series, which is the same concept in Shotgun form, lose out to the Lenz, Ignis, Zarr, etc. in terms of efficiency vs. crowds.

The Baza, while actually pretty nice stats-wise, has the damage falloff range of a good sneeze and isn't even ammo-efficient inside that range without a Riven. The vanilla Soma on the other hand, is actually bad. Yes it can crit, but it has neither base damage nor status chance, and unless you're in a premade squad running 4* Corrosive Projection, the only good thing about Slash is its proc. This is setting aside the fact that, again, such comparisons are nothing more than you moving the goalposts to a technically more defensible but objectively less relevant position.

Granted, I'm actually curious to see how the Latron Prime stacks up vs. the Paris Prime and Braton Prime, even if the Braton Prime is beyond the scope of your argument. I already know that the Latron Prime typically stays relevant for longer than the Dread in Endless missions due to it being Puncture-heavy and better at inflicting Status procs. I'm not interested in how it compares to the Sybaris series, because the Dex and Prime versions of the Sybaris tend to dump on any other single-target primary not named "Tigris Prime" or "Hema."

2

1. Slip of tongue, then. But yes, you're locked into the same hybrid build on virtually most primaries. 

2. Snipers, bows, and autos are the direct comparison since we're discussing ballistics and single shots across the board -- but the lenz is a bow that uses AoE to be good vs hordes and then there's AoE weapons like the Ignis which are virtually always insanely better than a semi-auto rifle. It's not really shifting the goalpost -- the goalpost is and has always been measuring how good semi-autos are (they aren't). 

3. The Baza isn't so affected by falloff anywhere outside the plains to still not be several orders better than the higher-ranked Veldt 😕. You use carrier and it's definitely ammo efficient like any other fast firing gun. A clip from the Baza can definitely kill a level 120 Heavy Gunner, while a whole clip from the Veldt often isn't. The Soma isn't as great as the Baza, but it's still something you could easily clear starchart or sortie with. I used it for high-level stuff back before I got the Prime. The Veldt, a beautiful and fun gun, is just not worth compared to anything. It has no real niche established enough to be worth using. 

4. I don't have the Latron Prime, I heard it was meh and haven't either bought parts or farmed it. It didn't look great, let's put it that way. 

 

 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Make all semi auto rifles.... Sniper rifles.

[Dreddeth]

2 hours ago, Shpow said:

Snipers, bows, and autos are the direct comparison since we're discussing ballistics and single shots across the board

No, you're comparing something which has its own niche, to something else which also has its own niche, by a criteria that the second thing was designed to be better at fulfilling. If you were confining your comparison to other precision oriented "delete single enemy" guns that do the same job better, like the Sybaris, Quartakk, Opticor, and so on, you'd have a point. However, pretending that the Ignis, Baza, Soma, et al. are relevant to the discussion in spite of being designed for completely divergent purposes is asinine. You might as well be arguing that every single gun needs to be as effective a crowd-killer as the Ignis Wraith or Lenz.

Basically, your argument's entire premise is fallacious.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/97/Faulty-Comparison

Edited August 16, 2018 by Dreddeth

[Seele]

Grinlok is my most-used weapon, and I use Tiberon Prime on semiauto almost exclusively. I consistently get high or top scores with either, and against level 50+ enemies at that.

While I wouldn't be sad if Grinlok got a little buff here or there, not a thing about Tiberon Prime needs any help.

Sure, they're not the best, but I don't think semiauto rifles in general are in the worst of places right now. I admit that I loathed using Veldt when, on paper, it should be my dream weapon, but other people say they like it, so eh. I do think the Latron series could use some buffs though. Prime should have a 30 round magazine.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I will say stradavar semi-auto needs nothing. Its incredibly good.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

Something unfortunate that you will come to realize in this type of game is that the developer picks winners and losers.

Are all thrown weapons going to be good or even usable? Point of fact, almost none of them are, but the staticor rocks. Are all beam weapons going to be incredible? No, but a few are. Are all shotguns going to have their own little niche carved out for them? Nah but for status there's the tigger prime, for crowd there's the arca plasmor, and for a kinda middle ground between on point damage and crowd control there's the corinth... Which could really benefit from "timed" explosions instead of the air burst... But I digress.

This is what developers do. They look at their weapons. They look at the ones they want to be great, like the staticor, the lanka (for eidolons), the tigris prime.... They pick the weapons that they want to feel good, but deliberately keep them from being "great", some of these are the pyrana prime, the ballistica prime, so on, weapons that could have been outstanding, but were deliberately kept just short of the "great" mark...... And then they leave everything that's not in the "great" or "good" list to be mastery fodder trash. Because if they make everything equally good, they won't have something to buff later when people get bored to death with the game in order to bring them back. 

Metas are created deliberately by developers so they don't have to work, and so that they have something they can buff later to draw interest from people who had left the game. You see it in every live game. You see it in WOW, you see it in Destiny, you see it in Division, make a few weapons great, make a few weapons good, make everything else trash, then change the good weapons to great, the trash weapons to good, and the great weapons to trash when you want to get people back interested in the game.

Every weapon you see will have it's day in the sun.... Just know that in many cases that day in the sun has already past and it's being left to die cold and alone on the mr fodder pile.

*Edit. I'm not saying the ones I listed are the only good weapons in the game. I'm listing some examples that most fans will tell you are weapons that are very strong in the right scenario, and pointing out that the reason those weapons are so strong when other weapons are soo weak, and some weapons that could be incredible are not for purely arbitrary reasons, is because it's that way deliberately. That's not a good thing, but it is the fact of the matter. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by (PS4)Echo_X

[Shpow]

On 2018-08-16 at 9:29 PM, Dreddeth said:

No, you're comparing something which has its own niche, to something else which also has its own niche, by a criteria that the second thing was designed to be better at fulfilling. If you were confining your comparison to other precision oriented "delete single enemy" guns that do the same job better, like the Sybaris, Quartakk, Opticor, and so on, you'd have a point. However, pretending that the Ignis, Baza, Soma, et al. are relevant to the discussion in spite of being designed for completely divergent purposes is asinine. You might as well be arguing that every single gun needs to be as effective a crowd-killer as the Ignis Wraith or Lenz.

Basically, your argument's entire premise is fallacious.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/97/Faulty-Comparison

Appealing to a fallacy, incorrectly, to seem smart is just tasteless.

 

The point of weapons, in this game, is to delete enemies. The easier it is to do, the better the weapon is perceived to be. 

In the realm of 'dingle enemy deletion', semi-autos still suck compared to the burst weapons, compared to sniper rifles, compared to bows, and even shotguns at longer ranges because of the damage levels involved. The Veldt, for a shining example of this, sucks hard compared to any of its peers, within or without its 'niche' (of which there isn't, since it's S#&$ at everything except fashion). 

So, of course they're relevant. If I can do the Veldt's job with the Baza, a lower MR weapon, just as easily: why use the Veldt? 

(Answer: you wouldn't, that's why I made this post, so we could discuss a niche for the gimp family that is the semi-auto single shots. 

 

The fact that crowd killers are as good at single deletion as a semi-auto Veldt (taking a level 120 corr. heavy gunner enemy, the baza can take it down in the clip while the Veldt might not it might make sense to take the damage of the Veldt and make sure that every single shot applies status, so that it can compete with high fire rate and beam weapons.

 

Hence this entire post. 

 

I hope this is simple enough. 

[Shpow]

 

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On 2018-08-17 at 3:10 AM, Seele said:

Grinlok is my most-used weapon, and I use Tiberon Prime on semiauto almost exclusively. I consistently get high or top scores with either, and against level 50+ enemies at that.

While I wouldn't be sad if Grinlok got a little buff here or there, not a thing about Tiberon Prime needs any help.

Sure, they're not the best, but I don't think semiauto rifles in general are in the worst of places right now. I admit that I loathed using Veldt when, on paper, it should be my dream weapon, but other people say they like it, so eh. I do think the Latron series could use some buffs though. Prime should have a 30 round magazine.

That's an anecdote, however, and level 50+ is not that high at all. Go into Simulacrum, see which weapons really do perform best at level 120+. Semi-auto rifles are, compared to any other class in its MR, the absolute worst pick you could make -- easily. 

On 2018-08-17 at 6:56 AM, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

I will say stradavar semi-auto needs nothing. Its incredibly good.

At maybe the starchart, mostly, sure. 

On 2018-08-18 at 11:06 AM, (PS4)Echo_X said:

Something unfortunate that you will come to realize in this type of game is that the developer picks winners and losers.

Are all thrown weapons going to be good or even usable? Point of fact, almost none of them are, but the staticor rocks. Are all beam weapons going to be incredible? No, but a few are. Are all shotguns going to have their own little niche carved out for them? Nah but for status there's the tigger prime, for crowd there's the arca plasmor, and for a kinda middle ground between on point damage and crowd control there's the corinth... Which could really benefit from "timed" explosions instead of the air burst... But I digress.

This is what developers do. They look at their weapons. They look at the ones they want to be great, like the staticor, the lanka (for eidolons), the tigris prime.... They pick the weapons that they want to feel good, but deliberately keep them from being "great", some of these are the pyrana prime, the ballistica prime, so on, weapons that could have been outstanding, but were deliberately kept just short of the "great" mark...... And then they leave everything that's not in the "great" or "good" list to be mastery fodder trash. Because if they make everything equally good, they won't have something to buff later when people get bored to death with the game in order to bring them back. 

Metas are created deliberately by developers so they don't have to work, and so that they have something they can buff later to draw interest from people who had left the game. You see it in every live game. You see it in WOW, you see it in Destiny, you see it in Division, make a few weapons great, make a few weapons good, make everything else trash, then change the good weapons to great, the trash weapons to good, and the great weapons to trash when you want to get people back interested in the game.

Every weapon you see will have it's day in the sun.... Just know that in many cases that day in the sun has already past and it's being left to die cold and alone on the mr fodder pile.

*Edit. I'm not saying the ones I listed are the only good weapons in the game. I'm listing some examples that most fans will tell you are weapons that are very strong in the right scenario, and pointing out that the reason those weapons are so strong when other weapons are soo weak, and some weapons that could be incredible are not for purely arbitrary reasons, is because it's that way deliberately. That's not a good thing, but it is the fact of the matter. 

I think you're missing the point.

Yes, not all weapons of a class are great. My problem is that none of the semi-autos are. They're rubbish at a class-level.

 

If you're 'trash to great' cycle were true, then the Tigris P is way past it's sell-by. I also fundamentally disagree with this, you're far better off adding new content that shifts the meta to be more equal for distribution to appeal to as many people as possible. Plains are fun for people that like frames good for roaming, snipers, stealth, etc; spy missions for stealth+covert lethality builds; eidolons for damage buffers, healers and focus schools; timed defence or survival for CC and damage frames, ESO for AoE DPS frames.

 

Beams got nerfed because they used to dominate the meta, but now they're good and in equal standing to other weapons. Quality shouldn't be what affects class (which is why dual daggers are getting range buffed) but rather taste, and that's what Warframe is -- a game to satiate your tastes. If your tastes aren't being met, you don't have fun. If there's no new content to enjoy using, you don't have fun. 

 

Yes, a lot of low MR weapons from the old days are worse now, and a lot got buffed a bit recently, but there's a very discernible tier of quality and application. Hence primes or wraiths and so on. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

On 2018-08-18 at 4:06 AM, (PS4)Echo_X said:

Something unfortunate that you will come to realize in this type of game is that the developer picks winners and losers.

Are all thrown weapons going to be good or even usable? Point of fact, almost none of them are, but the staticor rocks. Are all beam weapons going to be incredible? No, but a few are. Are all shotguns going to have their own little niche carved out for them? Nah but for status there's the tigger prime, for crowd there's the arca plasmor, and for a kinda middle ground between on point damage and crowd control there's the corinth... Which could really benefit from "timed" explosions instead of the air burst... But I digress.

This is what developers do. They look at their weapons. They look at the ones they want to be great, like the staticor, the lanka (for eidolons), the tigris prime.... They pick the weapons that they want to feel good, but deliberately keep them from being "great", some of these are the pyrana prime, the ballistica prime, so on, weapons that could have been outstanding, but were deliberately kept just short of the "great" mark...... And then they leave everything that's not in the "great" or "good" list to be mastery fodder trash. Because if they make everything equally good, they won't have something to buff later when people get bored to death with the game in order to bring them back. 

Metas are created deliberately by developers so they don't have to work, and so that they have something they can buff later to draw interest from people who had left the game. You see it in every live game. You see it in WOW, you see it in Destiny, you see it in Division, make a few weapons great, make a few weapons good, make everything else trash, then change the good weapons to great, the trash weapons to good, and the great weapons to trash when you want to get people back interested in the game.

Every weapon you see will have it's day in the sun.... Just know that in many cases that day in the sun has already past and it's being left to die cold and alone on the mr fodder pile.

*Edit. I'm not saying the ones I listed are the only good weapons in the game. I'm listing some examples that most fans will tell you are weapons that are very strong in the right scenario, and pointing out that the reason those weapons are so strong when other weapons are soo weak, and some weapons that could be incredible are not for purely arbitrary reasons, is because it's that way deliberately. That's not a good thing, but it is the fact of the matter. 

All shotguns are goid save for the beam ones. Hek/vaykor... Superb. Drakgoon? Killer especially with mag...  Kohm, excellent... Their all good

[Dreddeth]

I don't think any of us will be actually getting through to the OP at this rate. Seems he's off in his own little world where everything needs to be the Lenz.

Because of this stubborn contrarianism, there's plenty of back and forth but no actual progress. I suggest we move on and let this thread act out the final stages of its life cycle, wherein everyone interested in polite discussion is put off by the OP being so sanctimonious and hostile, and the thread dies.

Or, perhaps those inclined could change tack and demonstrate why his proposed fix of giving semi-auto rifles 100% status before mods is, at the very least, the exact kind of power creep he claims to be avoiding. I wouldn't expect him to listen, though, because he clearly doesn't care what other users have to say.

[Seele]

On 2018-08-14 at 2:38 PM, Shpow said:

They feel cool to use at low levels, but past 50 it gets hairy

 

11 hours ago, Shpow said:

 

That's an anecdote, however, and level 50+ is not that high at all.

While yes, it is anecdotal, there's a difference between "this one time" and "consistently throughout years of active gameplay."

I also used the benchmark you provided me yourself. I don't know when exactly the point my Grinlok becomes inefficient is, nor when I would or should feel compelled to switch off semiauto on my Tiberon.

[Shpow]

2 hours ago, Seele said:

 

While yes, it is anecdotal, there's a difference between "this one time" and "consistently throughout years of active gameplay."

I also used the benchmark you provided me yourself. I don't know when exactly the point my Grinlok becomes inefficient is, nor when I would or should feel compelled to switch off semiauto on my Tiberon.

Level 50 is a low level. A weapon clearing a level 50 is not impressive, at all. I said 50+ because it's what you said, so I took it to mean that 50+ was meant to mean 'high'. The very reason I mentioned things getting hairy past level 50 is because it's such a low level for a gun that's a semi-auto to become so weak. It wasn't a benchmark that should be hard to beat -- at all. 

Let me try explaining my big issue in a nutshell.

Guns exist, in games, as a point of relation to each other and not to the enemies since enemies scale in health so absurdly. The use of a weapon is shaped, in the user's mind, by the following: 

1. The Aesthetic/Form: Visuals, sound, reload speed, firing speed. This is the 'conceptual' shape of the weapon that feeds off of what we imagine a certain weapon to be 'like'. Shotguns have spread and kick and aren't too fast, machine guns have dakka, you get my drift. 

2. The Performative: How does the weapon perform for its rank, its 'level'? No one could play a weapon with negative fire rate or zero damage, it has to be able to interact.

3. The Metanarrative: Where does the weapon, or class, fit in the inventory? In a combination of items 1 and 2 we can actually perceive the weapons identity. It's fine to have MR fodder as long as it isn't class-wide. It's okay to have a 'weaker' class, too, as long as it isn't purely made up of MR fodder because there will be players that enjoy the category 1 of the weapon's identity but find category 2 lacking. That weaker overall identity reduces said player engagement overall, which is a concern, but I suppose as players is secondary to the fact that  they perform worse than all their peers.

Semi-autos suffer incredibly in terms of category 2. This is an objective matter, not at all one for debate. Compared to sniper rifles or autos the semis opt for either less fire rate or no zoom in order to have less DPS, sustained or otherwise. As fun as they might be, they feel objectively weaker than weapons of similar rank and only have category 1 going for them. That's not enough for people to play them. That's a problem for DE, theoretically.

5 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

I don't think any of us will be actually getting through to the OP at this rate. Seems he's off in his own little world where everything needs to be the Lenz.

Because of this stubborn contrarianism, there's plenty of back and forth but no actual progress. I suggest we move on and let this thread act out the final stages of its life cycle, wherein everyone interested in polite discussion is put off by the OP being so sanctimonious and hostile, and the thread dies.

Or, perhaps those inclined could change tack and demonstrate why his proposed fix of giving semi-auto rifles 100% status before mods is, at the very least, the exact kind of power creep he claims to be avoiding. I wouldn't expect him to listen, though, because he clearly doesn't care what other users have to say.

2

I'd rather not devolve this into mudslinging. Semi-autos are weaker inherently in terms of stats and function in the gameplay. As such they're just there as props or for low level missions. 

 

Whether or not it would end up being, unintentionally, powercreep is something you never even bothered to discuss. That'd be a better argument to have, an actual constructive one rather than straight up pretending that semi-autos are 'in a good spot.'