Making Semi-Auto (non-sniper) Rifles Viable, without power creep

[Seele]

13 hours ago, Shpow said:

Level 50 is a low level. A weapon clearing a level 50 is not impressive, at all. I said 50+ because it's what you said, so I took it to mean that 50+ was meant to mean 'high'. The very reason I mentioned things getting hairy past level 50 is because it's such a low level for a gun that's a semi-auto to become so weak. It wasn't a benchmark that should be hard to beat -- at all. 

Holy crap dude. The quote I posted from you first describing level 50 is your first friggin post in this thread. The OP.

I didn't pull "level 50" out of my ass.

13 hours ago, Shpow said:

I said 50+ because it's what you said

No you did not. I said 50+ because of what you said.

Now excuse while I continue to top score sorties with my Grinlok. Good day.

[Cicasajt]

i had a far better idea for this but it got too little attention

 

 

[csaszar]

OP is absoutely right that there is absolutely no reason to use semi auto rifles now.

We all use them for fun. Funny because my fav rifle is Tiberon prime with an awsome crit riven and i like to "fun" sniping with its semi. Around sortie level its not that much fun anymore and i tend to change for its status auto fire - alvays. Because thats the reasonable thing to do. Having fun with a wepon is nice its one of the reasons i play this game. But this game is also a cooperative game where you always compare yourself and your efficiency with your team mates.

On the other hand giving innitate 100% status - while it would be lovable - will simply shift the balance and we would be argue in an other thread how to make auto weapons more powerful.

Make that 100% into 50% and it could work maybe.

[Shpow]

18 hours ago, Seele said:

Holy crap dude. The quote I posted from you first describing level 50 is your first friggin post in this thread. The OP.

I didn't pull "level 50" out of my ass.

No you did not. I said 50+ because of what you said.

Now excuse while I continue to top score sorties with my Grinlok. Good day.

Easy on the aggro.

Yes, I'm aware of what I said. I said the single shots like the Veldt don't perform well past level 50 to show how weak they are compared to others in their range. Imagine it to be the Warframe equivalent of "couldn't find your way out of a paper bag".

So someone saying "I totally can find my way out of a paper bag" isn't actually impressive. 

[Seele]

5 hours ago, Shpow said:

Easy on the aggro.

Yes, I'm aware of what I said. I said the single shots like the Veldt don't perform well past level 50 to show how weak they are compared to others in their range. Imagine it to be the Warframe equivalent of "couldn't find your way out of a paper bag".

So someone saying "I totally can find my way out of a paper bag" isn't actually impressive. 

Don't get a victim complex just because you were wrong and called out on it.

Beyond that, I don't know what to tell you. I cede that semiauto rifles are not generally strong right now, but they aren't universally criminally weak.

I'm not trying to impress anyone, but you set the benchmark and I responded to it. I'm not one to sit in the simulacrum seeing what level heavy gunners survive 3 headshots of my rifle, but I'm secure that it's a higher level than "paper bag."

I can get behind a minor global buff to semiauto rifles, but your proposed buff, 100% status before mods, is ludicrous and I can't support it. There are a thousand potential effective, and less extreme, solutions.

[MageSkeleton]

i read some of this and sorry i'm not gonna get all technical, but has anyone suggested a fan concept for a Rifle and can switch from Semi-auto to Sniper? Or a Semi-auto mutalist rifle that actually does "hit scan" and a poison cloud follows after the shot being at a projectile speed?

And honestly, i like the idea of making all the Semi-Auto weapons so they can easily reach 100% status and again, i know i'm not contributing to the technical s of this conversation but weapons such as the Sybaris are actually "Burst" fire which means there's more shots giving a 20% status chance more of a 50% status change (if all shots of the burst hit) and weapons like the Hind having a high status chance would actually be OP compared to the Semi-Auto's like the Latron and the function of the Argonak and Stradavar really pointless to even make use of.

When DE gave us weapons like the Stradavar which can change from Auto to Semi-auto i was hoping we'd get a few more or that these would be well "built" and as they are i have rivens for both and for as much as i like being able to go from Auto to Semi-auto depending on ammo or situation these weapons are horrible and not even worth using as a Semi-auto weapon.

Semi-auto feels like something you want in something like a spy mission or maybe an exterminate where you want it silenced and "one shot one kill". Often times there are enemies like Bombards where even if you hit them in the head it takes multiple shots to take one down anyway which brings me to my last point of why you would use a Semi-auto rifle instead of a sniper. When you want to "shoot and move" in a close quarter area a regular Semi-auto rifle gives you vision of your area while allowing you to effectively "snipe". But then when you do have map size such as PoE suddenly the Sniper rifle doesn't have enough zoom. Considering we got the Baza which is an Auto silenced rifle things do not look good for the Semi-auto rifle. i would had thought DE would have at least given us a Semi-auto silenced pistol that was reminiscent of the Latron but the closest we have is Lato, Aklato, Lex, and Aklex.

after all, this is a game where you "shoot it until it's dead" and Auto fits alot better than Semi-auto.

Edited August 23, 2018 by MageSkeleton

[Shpow]

On 2018-08-21 at 5:44 PM, Seele said:

Don't get a victim complex just because you were wrong and called out on it.

Beyond that, I don't know what to tell you. I cede that semiauto rifles are not generally strong right now, but they aren't universally criminally weak.

I'm not trying to impress anyone, but you set the benchmark and I responded to it. I'm not one to sit in the simulacrum seeing what level heavy gunners survive 3 headshots of my rifle, but I'm secure that it's a higher level than "paper bag."

I can get behind a minor global buff to semiauto rifles, but your proposed buff, 100% status before mods, is ludicrous and I can't support it. There are a thousand potential effective, and less extreme, solutions.

Why is it extreme? You have a slow firing weapon with OK damage. You probably still can't catch up, DPS wise or kills-wise, with something like an ignis, but at least a heavy unit you attack could take more damage.

 

Full 100% before mods would be OP on a fast gun or a beam maybe. It isn't on Melee (twin Basolk) so why would it on a semi-auto? 

 

Besides, why not move away from having compulsory 60/60 mods?

[Seele]

7 hours ago, Shpow said:

Why is it extreme? You have a slow firing weapon with OK damage. You probably still can't catch up, DPS wise or kills-wise, with something like an ignis, but at least a heavy unit you attack could take more damage.

 

Full 100% before mods would be OP on a fast gun or a beam maybe. It isn't on Melee (twin Basolk) so why would it on a semi-auto? 

 

Besides, why not move away from having compulsory 60/60 mods?

I'd much sooner support nerfs to the lazy, easy-mode, "hold LMB win game" weapons like Ignis and Amprex than a buff like this to semiautos.

There are many, many weapons which pale horrendously to the outputs of those weapons, including other automatic primaries. It's just not a fair comparison. Would you want double daggers to get 100% base crit because they can't keep up with the DPS of Atterax?

Your solution is extreme because it would limit design space. Every future semiauto rifle would also have to be 100% status. So, DE could never make a new semiauto rifle with a particularly high status chance as its sell. All that would matter is raw damage output, so as they make more semiauto rifles, each new one would either be the single best semiauto rifle, or not even worth using. Where members of other weapon classes can be considered crit, status, hybrid, or the much rarer raw DPS, semiautos would be relegated restrictively to hybrid, which would be evaluated by crit and base damage alone. So they'd all end up feeling / playing pretty much the same and only the one with the objectively highest DPS would be at all relevant.

Granted, there are very few semiauto rifles in the game currently and I wouldn't anticipate a massive surge of developer initiative even if this insane idea was put into effect. It wouldn't be an immediate catastrophe, but it would hurt the game in the long run.

[Shpow]

2 hours ago, Seele said:

I'd much sooner support nerfs to the lazy, easy-mode, "hold LMB win game" weapons like Ignis and Amprex than a buff like this to semiautos.

There are many, many weapons which pale horrendously to the outputs of those weapons, including other automatic primaries. It's just not a fair comparison. Would you want double daggers to get 100% base crit because they can't keep up with the DPS of Atterax?

Your solution is extreme because it would limit design space. Every future semiauto rifle would also have to be 100% status. So, DE could never make a new semiauto rifle with a particularly high status chance as its sell. All that would matter is raw damage output, so as they make more semiauto rifles, each new one would either be the single best semiauto rifle, or not even worth using. Where members of other weapon classes can be considered crit, status, hybrid, or the much rarer raw DPS, semiautos would be relegated restrictively to hybrid, which would be evaluated by crit and base damage alone. So they'd all end up feeling / playing pretty much the same and only the one with the objectively highest DPS would be at all relevant.

Granted, there are very few semiauto rifles in the game currently and I wouldn't anticipate a massive surge of developer initiative even if this insane idea was put into effect. It wouldn't be an immediate catastrophe, but it would hurt the game in the long run.

Why? They feel good and at Sortie level (or higher) will be adequate. They're S#&$e against sentients (as would be 100% status semi autos) and are what fun guns feel like for a horde shooter. They aren't the best against bosses and have range limitations. The beam rework was great, what you're asking for is to unbalance them. 

Thing is, flamethrowers and the like are really good at CQC and hallways. That's their design. Semi autos are good at popping single targets.

As for double daggers and crit, if their damage is as remains as is their reach it would give them a niche. Frankly, the Twin basolk are similarly small in range but range is the major limiter, not actual damage, and having the range on them buffed like DE said they will is definitely a gamechanger for them and their stance. 

It doesn't really limit design space. It opens modding space which in turn opens design space. Have a semi-auto with only an element on it and no slash or anything, or have one with different, non-combined elements if it's possible, maybe make one that works like the Hystrix (the weapon the Veldt launched with, ironically). They could make one with lower damage than the others but the bullet 'fragments' affecting an AoE with that smaller damage. They could have different speeds with different crit multipliers, chances, or damage numbers. They could make a double-barreled one, a non-hitscan one that works like the Judas Bullet from the MCU, the lightning gun from Unreal Tournament, they could have a mutalist version, one with a shield at the front to block 75% damage, one that is super high damage but slow on reload.

 

There are choices. 

[Seele]

1 hour ago, Shpow said:

Thing is, flamethrowers and the like are really good at CQC and hallways. That's their design. Semi autos are good at popping single targets.

What they're good for is clearing out giant mobs of enemies. 90% of Warframe content is doing just that. As you point out yourself, semiautomatic rifles are inherently disadvantaged for it.

Now if Ignis was only good for clearing out the trash and couldn't do much against more powerful enemies, that would make sense to me. However all of its stats are so bloated and it can utilize things like Hunter Munitions to chew through bosses, so there's no content where it's just totally inappropriate. If it was a balanced weapon I would not routinely have my pickup group slots be filled with Saryns Prime wielding Ignis and Atterax. Same thing every time. They're too good at what they do and people take the easy way out.

Now because semiauto rifles are so poorly suited to the mass casualty combat Warframe showcases, I concur that they should be very good at what they are good for, especially since these other weapons can get by or even still thrive outside of their element. I actually don't hate the earlier suggestion to reclass our current semiauto rifles into sniper rifles so that they could enjoy the inherent punch-through, which is what allows sniper rifles to manage in the current environment (as well as their generally very good stats, but that's besides the point). Unfortunately Tiberon Prime would fall through the cracks here, but I maintain that semiauto Tiberon Prime is completely fine and in no need of any improvement.

The other solution is for DE to add more content with fewer but tougher enemies, which seems unlikely. Horde mulching makes all the right neurons in our instant-gratification-craving heads fire off. It's why we're all still here. Beyond that, the game's content perhaps most suited to semiauto rifles and snipers - the Plains, with its long sightlines - is still easily enough handled by just zipping up to the enemy and blasting them with a beam, auto rifle, or 4 button, since enemies don't tend to engage you from particularly long range either.

I've had the most success with semiauto rifles by trying to shore up their poor crowd clearing ability with punch-through and/or gas/electric status builds. Of the two I would rather see free punch-through than free 100% status, which I really hope the more you read it as we go along here the more you realize how ridiculous it is.