Could the Lanka be Given a Soft Reticule for Leading Shots? Perhaps Mil Markers at the Least.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

I feel that a lot of players don't really consider the Lanka as a valid option for long distance sniping because it's not hitscan with the projectile being comparatively slow to all the other snipers.

Please keep in mind, I'm referring to Lanka's ability to snipe long distance like the other snipers can.

If there were a soft reticule for leading targets, then it could make Lanka more reliable for long distance. The reticule would only make regular hits easier, but not necessarily headshots, as it would lead the midsection, but not the head.

A good example of this is the Plasma Repeater from Halo: Reach (though the player has to be an Elite to see the feature).

I understand that the Lanka is very strong for its Shot Combo. It lasts 6s & starts at 2 shots. However, this doesn't solve the Lanka's very weak long distance game, & really only causes it to be received as some weird type of heavy rifle.

Because the soft reticule would make long distance sniping easier with the Lanka, we need to consider some trade-offs if this change is made.

1. Nerf the Lanka's Shot Combo.
2. Make the soft reticule feature into a mod (this could allow the Lanka to keep its current Shot Combo). This mod could work on all non-hitscan weapons as well. Much like the projectile speed mods.
3. Both could be done together.
4. If we don't want a soft reticule at all, then we could restructure the Lanka's scope such that there are mil markers to assist leading. (I still at least like the mod idea)

I'm not going to deny that Lanka is very strong as a weapon. I am denying that it is strong as a sniper. Lanka's strength as a weapon comes from a combination of its base crit chance, scope-in bonus, & special Shot Combo. I am contending that, while these things grant Lanka over the top power, this doesn't necessarily mean it is good specifically as a sniper. Strong as a rifle, but weak as a sniper. It's an anti-materiel rifle with ineffective sniping capability. I find this a problem because Lanka is classed as a sniper, yet doesn't do very well filling that role for anything that isn't a Grineer dropship on the Plains. Against large targets like those dropships, Lanka is fine, but only because those targets are large. Against standard units, though strong as an anti-materiel rifle, it is weak as a sniper.

If in future updates we could get more large, lumbering enemies, I could accept Lanka's niche position, but we don't have that. That's more years of waiting if we are to expect that.

I'm asking for Lanka to be easier as a sniper, but not easy to the point of OP cheese (which, when considered as the anti-materiel rifle that it is, arguably already is to some). I'm asking for it to be less painful as a sniper.

Edited August 22, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Wrum]

that is not easy to program and wouldn't be worth it with for a single weapon. if they decided to do it for all non hit scan weapons it might be worth while but not just for lanka.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Wrum

[Andaius]

It's just something you get used to if you use it alot. I was the same with euphonia prime for a while. I got used to it and now can hit stuff on the plains fairly regualrly.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

19 minutes ago, Wrum said:

that is not easy to program and wouldn't be worth it with for a single weapon. if they decided to do it for all non hit scan weapons it might be worth while but not just for lanka.

Why would it need to be done for all non-hitscan weapons? I don't imagine Boltor becoming appreciably better from a soft reticule like the Lanka would.

& it wouldn't be that hard. Halo Reach did it with the Plasma Repeater (though you have to be playing as an Elite to see the feature).

Calculations needed:

1. Trajectory of projectile
2. Trajectory of the target

Only 2. & those only really need distance & speed to enable them. The soft reticule would position such that it fits a projectile trajectory that will intersect the target's trajectory.

Edited August 17, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Wrum]

im not saying that it cant be done, i'm saying it wouldn't be worth it for just one weapon. and i should have been more specific than all non hit scan weapons, what i meant was things like bows and the ogris that have a noticeable projectile travel time.

also the soft reticule would need to account for mods like heavy caliber that mess with accuracy.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

because it's not hitscan with the projectile being slow.

Slow? Is 200m/s slow? Are we talking about the same weapon?

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

28 minutes ago, Wrum said:

im not saying that it cant be done, i'm saying it wouldn't be worth it for just one weapon. and i should have been more specific than all non hit scan weapons, what i meant was things like bows and the ogris that have a noticeable projectile travel time.

also the soft reticule would need to account for mods like heavy caliber that mess with accuracy.

Ah. We could give Lanka a built in soft reticule, & make a mod that does the same as well.

Accounting for accuracy should be easy. Just make it wider.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

On August 17, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Andaius said:

It's just something you get used to if you use it alot. I was the same with euphonia prime for a while. I got used to it and now can hit stuff on the plains fairly regualrly.

You snipe with Euphona?

This made me check Euphona in Simulacrum. Its slug moves just as fast as Lanka's projectile, except it has bullet-drop.

We shouldn't compare shotguns & snipers like this. They have completely separate purposes.

Edited August 21, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

On August 17, 2018 at 11:54 AM, (PS4)iQuedas said:

Slow? Is 200m/s slow? Are we talking about the same weapon?

That is slow for a railgun who's purpose is supposed to be sniping, yes. Very much so.

Compared to hitscan, it is slow. Compared to the average bullet, given that hypersonic ammo is the staple, it is slow. The speed of sound in dry 20°C air at sea level (or 1 atmosphere of density) is 343m/s. The Terminal Velocity mod only increases Lanka's projectile speed from 200m/s, to 320m/s. Lanka, for a railgun sniper, is hella slow.

Like I said though, I'm asking for a target leading soft reticule. To be honest, I don't care too much for the projectile speed.

Edited August 22, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Andaius]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

You snipe with Euphona?

This made me check Euphona in Simulacrum. Its slug moves just as fast as Lanka's projectile, & it has bullet-drop.

We shouldn't compare shotguns & snipers like this. They have completely separate purposes.

euphonia is a pocket sniper after all, in primary mode. I wouldn't say I shot at max scoped ranges but your a fair distance away when on the plains.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

5 minutes ago, Andaius said:

euphonia is a pocket sniper after all, in primary mode. I wouldn't say I shot at max scoped ranges but your a fair distance away when on the plains.

Yes. I'm referring to long & extreme long distance. Well past the point where Euphona's slugs would have arced into the ground.

Edited August 17, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[OvisCaedo]

long distance game is also a myth DE kept playing up to make people feel pre-emptively impressed with how "big" their awful open world map was even though virtually nothing will ever actually happen beyond about 100 meters unless you constantly move up to force spawns and then back out of range to try to tediously force longer distances to exist, which is also often not an option on many of the "stay in this circle" bounty/incursion missions which are the only combat related activity on the plains that actually has any reason or reward

 

anyhow also if you want to use a non hitscan long range weapon just learn to lead the shots. DE struggles to program almost everything, this kind of reticle would be a very questionable resource use.

Edited August 17, 2018 by OvisCaedo

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

22 minutes ago, OvisCaedo said:

long distance game is also a myth DE kept playing up to make people feel pre-emptively impressed with how "big" their awful open world map was even though virtually nothing will ever actually happen beyond about 100 meters unless you constantly move up to force spawns and then back out of range to try to tediously force longer distances to exist, which is also often not an option on many of the "stay in this circle" bounty/incursion missions which are the only combat related activity on the plains that actually has any reason or reward

anyhow also if you want to use a non hitscan long range weapon just learn to lead the shots. DE struggles to program almost everything, this kind of reticle would be a very questionable resource use.

And if PoE was fixed & enemies rendered out to 300-500m? Even at 100m the performance of Lanka, compared to the other snipers, is still questionable.

If you want PoE (& the inevitable Fortuna for that matter) fixed first then fine, but don't act as if this is an impossibility.

I do lead shots. Doesn't change the fact that a player is gambling at that distance. My point is that it's a real turn-off to find that a railgun sniper can't match up to the other snipers at the long distance game.

I went ahead & edited my OP for an extra option if you want to see that.

Edited August 17, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Zi-Sui]

Before they fix the PoE enemy range limitations they should fix most of the PoE bugs. God I've been to plains a lot and the last time I checked the abandon mission, UI bugs, drone getting stuck and hostage wandering off when you hack the collar were all there. And some others too.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

12 hours ago, BoarWarrior said:

Before they fix the PoE enemy range limitations they should fix most of the PoE bugs. God I've been to plains a lot and the last time I checked the abandon mission, UI bugs, drone getting stuck and hostage wandering off when you hack the collar were all there. And some others too.

I'd say so too. As well as making it more engaging & better integrated. I'm just mentioning Lanka for a QoL improvement. For sure those issues are more important.

[Eirshy]

Here I thought we were just gonna adjust the reticle to have mils so it'd be easier to actually line up a shot based on distance.

Never mind, not in favor. Enemy pathing isn't something you can have the game easily guide you on- you have to be able to read where they're actually going and how their path is going to "adjust" because of it- largely before the AI knows it's going to do that adjustment. And while you don't typically need to account for vertical drift (unless bows or Euphona Prime), there's actually a slight horizontal drift. Try firing the Lanka past 300m and you'll notice the shot drifts noticeably towards the camera.

The gun would also have to guess which target in the horde you're actually wanting it to track, and then accomplish that without any clutter or excessive effort to use. 'nother reason it's kinda a non-starter.

 

I realize you're console, and thus struggle with the lack of being able to "use" controller aim assist with it, but that's literally the "price" of using an imprecise first-order input for a zero-order task. Not really much that can be done on that.

 

t. Someone who has been sniping Osprey with the Lanka from over 100m out since u8-9.

Edited August 20, 2018 by TheBlueJelly

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

11 hours ago, TheBlueJelly said:

Here I thought we were just gonna adjust the reticle to have mils so it'd be easier to actually line up a shot based on distance.

Never mind, not in favor. Enemy pathing isn't something you can have the game easily guide you on- you have to be able to read where they're actually going and how their path is going to "adjust" because of it- largely before the AI knows it's going to do that adjustment. And while you don't typically need to account for vertical drift (unless bows or Euphona Prime), there's actually a slight horizontal drift. Try firing the Lanka past 300m and you'll notice the shot drifts noticeably towards the camera.

The gun would also have to guess which target in the horde you're actually wanting it to track, and then accomplish that without any clutter or excessive effort to use. 'nother reason it's kinda a non-starter.

I realize you're console, and thus struggle with the lack of being able to "use" controller aim assist with it, but that's literally the "price" of using an imprecise first-order input for a zero-order task. Not really much that can be done on that.

t. Someone who has been sniping Osprey with the Lanka from over 100m out since u8-9.

The game would not be literally telling players where the enemy is going to be. That's not how trajectory works. You're describing precognition, yet I never asked for that nor have I described it that way. If I did at some point, it was only in relation to enemy unit velocity, not enemy AI pathing logic.

Trajectory IRL only takes acceleration, velocity, distance, reflections, gravity, & resistance. Since this is Warframe, we only need velocity & distance.

When targeting a crowd, usually one would stop worrying about individual enemies. Instead they would consider the crowd a large target of multiple enemies to be hit. Collateral damage. Only a capture target would be a worry, but even they're too busy running away to wind up within a horde for a meaningful amount of time. Either way, the soft reticule would fade out for crowds so that is doesn't clutter the interface. It's hard to miss crowds anyway.

Yes, I know a controller is less accurate than a mouse. I'm not attempting to close that gap. I'm trying to make the Lanka more like a sniper, & less like a heavy rifle. Most players, including me, only use Lanka to abuse it's special Shot Combo, but that doesn't make it a better sniper per se. Just a better gun.

If you go back to my OP, you'll see the 4th option I included since everyone thinks a soft reticule is such a bad idea.

Edited August 21, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Eirshy]

10 hours ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

The game would not be literally telling players where the enemy is going to be. That's not how trajectory works. You're describing precognition, yet I never asked for that nor have I described it that way. If I did at some point, it was only in relation to enemy unit velocity, not enemy AI pathing logic.

Trajectory IRL only takes acceleration, velocity, distance, reflections, gravity, & resistance. Since this is Warframe, we only need velocity & distance.

When targeting a crowd, usually one would stop worrying about individual enemies. Instead they would consider the crowd a large target of multiple enemies to be hit. Collateral damage. Only a capture target would be a worry, but even they're too busy running away to wind up within a horde for a meaningful amount of time. Either way, the soft reticule would fade out for crowds so that is doesn't clutter the interface. It's hard to miss crowds anyway.

Yes, I know a controller is less accurate than a mouse. I'm not attempting to close that gap. I'm trying to make the Lanka more like a sniper, & less like a heavy rifle. Most players, including me, only use Lanka to abuse it's special Shot Combo, but that doesn't make it a better sniper per se. Just a better gun.

If you go back to my OP, you'll see the 4th option I included since everyone thinks a soft reticule is such a bad idea.

Due to the erratic movement of the AI, simple trajectory wouldn't really be the most useful of things. However you are correct that it would be much simpler to implement and a lot less.... idk, cheap? So I'll drop the hard against down to a meh against, since I'd still like to see mils added instead (essentially "option 4"), and don't think any nerf would be necessary with that. Largely I don't want anything that would warrant a nerf, largely because doing so would be punishing me (and others) for adding something I (we) don't need/want. As-a-mod might be fine, I just feel like it would see very little use due to being basically a crutch mod.

Velocity, distance, and horizontal drift. Don't forget the horizontal drift lol

On the contrary, it's very easy to miss on crowds, especially if you're prioritizing targets (which you should be doing, since your target switch rate is so low). The issue with switching it off when n>m, is you don't change the calculation requirements, you only change the rendering requirements. Having to maintain the trajectory calc for the entire crowd so it can pop back in as soon as n<=m can be expensive, given how large crowds in this game can be. May or may not be an actual problem, however, depending on if they can just tie it to a value already stored by the physics engine.

 

The Lanka is the best sniper because it's the only one that can breach 100% crit chance cold. It is thus the only one that has a minimum per-bullet headshot multiplier of 17.6x. Every other sniper has a minimum headshot multiplier of 2x. The actually usable shot combo (without Harkonar) is just gravy.

Didn't mean to sound attacking on the aim assist bit btw, I was thinking you were wanting the aim assist stuff to also apply on that leading reticle. Added more to your intent than you, well, intended.

Edited August 21, 2018 by TheBlueJelly

[Acerbus]

Nyet, rifle is fine

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

3 hours ago, TheBlueJelly said:

Due to the erratic movement of the AI, simple trajectory wouldn't really be the most useful of things. However you are correct that it would be much simpler to implement and a lot less.... idk, cheap? So I'll drop the hard against down to a meh against, since I'd still like to see mils added instead (essentially "option 4"), and don't think any nerf would be necessary with that. Largely I don't want anything that would warrant a nerf, largely because doing so would be punishing me (and others) for adding something I (we) don't need/want. As-a-mod might be fine, I just feel like it would see very little use due to being basically a crutch mod.

Velocity, distance, and horizontal drift. Don't forget the horizontal drift lol

On the contrary, it's very easy to miss on crowds, especially if you're prioritizing targets (which you should be doing, since your target switch rate is so low). The issue with switching it off when n>m, is you don't change the calculation requirements, you only change the rendering requirements. Having to maintain the trajectory calc for the entire crowd so it can pop back in as soon as n<=m can be expensive, given how large crowds in this game can be. May or may not be an actual problem, however, depending on if they can just tie it to a value already stored by the physics engine.

The Lanka is the best sniper because it's the only one that can breach 100% crit chance cold. It is thus the only one that has a minimum per-bullet headshot multiplier of 17.6x. Every other sniper has a minimum headshot multiplier of 2x. The actually usable shot combo (without Harkonar) is just gravy.

Didn't mean to sound attacking on the aim assist bit btw, I was thinking you were wanting the aim assist stuff to also apply on that leading reticle. Added more to your intent than you, well, intended.

Calling it a crutch mod is harsh. If endless level & armor scaling were replaced with a single baseline standard, all mods, including the mandatory mods (raw damage, status, crit, & multishot), could be balanced such that all mods could be considered for their respective QoL buffs. If you go to the Plasma Repeater example, I actually remember the soft reticule being a boon where without it the AR would easily begin outperforming at closer distances, but it was still more difficult since users had to actively adjust the hard reticule over the soft reticule.

I haven't experienced horizontal drift yet. I'll have to test. Though, I'm really only considering 100m+ as a starting point, not 300m+.

Yes, if one prioritizes single targets within a crowd, they are still just as likely to miss, but my point is that the miss will just hit another target by virtue of being within the same crowd. By target switch rate, you mean target acquisition? I'm not understanding why anyone would worry about specific targets unless they are a tank unit, a capture target, or they just really like headshots. The collateral hits from punchthrough will shoot up the Shot Combo faster than single target prioritization. A player shouldn't worry as heavily when targeting hordes. You're losing me on 'n' & 'm' since you didn't specify what they are, but the idea is that the trajectory tracking only does 1 enemy at a time, not 10. Even if the calculator continuing to run when the reticule fades is a problem, we can make it so that when it fades out, so does the calculator, until lone enemies are targeted again.

Again, Lanka's Shot Combo doesn't solve its poor distance game, & doesn't necessarily make it a good sniper. It makes it a good gun, but not necessarily a good sniper.

I'm willing to settle with mil markers. We can start there. Though, I'm still pretty sold on the soft reticule, at the very least as a mod.

Edited August 21, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

30 minutes ago, Acerbus said:

Nyet, rifle is fine

Exactly. Fine as a rifle, but not fine as a sniper. XP

It is superb as a rifle, but if you tell me it's superb as a sniper, well... Vectis Prime begs to differ.

[Eirshy]

1 minute ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Calling it a crutch mod is harsh. If endless level & armor scaling were replaced with a single baseline standard, all mods, including the mandatory mods (raw damage, status, crit, & multishot), could be balanced such that all mods could be considered for their respective QoL buffs. If you go to the Plasma Repeater example, I actually remember the soft reticule being a boon where without it the AR would easily begin outperforming at closer distances, but it was still more difficult since users had to actively adjust the hard reticule over the soft reticule.

I haven't experienced horizontal drift yet. I'll have to test. Though, I'm really only considering 100m+ as a starting point, not 300m+.

Yes, if one prioritizes single targets within a crowd, they are still just as likely to miss, but my point is that the miss will just hit another target by virtue of being within the same crowd. By target switch rate, you mean target acquisition? I'm not understanding why anyone would worry about specific targets unless they are a tank unit, a capture target, or they just really like headshots. The collateral hits from punchthrough will shoot up the Shot Combo faster than single target prioritization. A player shouldn't worry as heavily when targeting hordes. You're losing me on 'n' & 'm' since you didn't specify what they are, but the idea is that the trajectory tracking only does 1 enemy at a time, not 10. Even if the calculator continuing to run when the reticule fades is a problem, we can make it so that when it fades out, so does the calculator, until lone enemies are targeted again.

On calling it a crutch mod.... The difference between a crutch and a mechanic is quite simply whether the benefit is something that is traditionally a player skill. As an example, in a game like Monster Hunter, the iframe-boosting special is usually considered a "crutch" in most fights, as you can derive all of its benefits from a mix of better positioning, attack reading, and dodge timing instead. In this case, it would add an assist for hitting a target at long range that could instead be estimated by the player via intuitive distance estimation (or precise, there's a rangefinder on the scope) and both estimation and prediction of movement.

As such, it is providing assistance on something that can be naturally handled by simple player skill. Headshotting a sk8rboi when he slid behind a crate 100m out is something that you can "easily" do right now (in a recent Ambulas sortie 3 I did two in a row). It's a crutch mod plain and simple.

 

On the drift, it's most obvious at longer distances but you can "notice" it at really close distances too. The reason is the camera shows like this: | but the warframe is on one side of that line and, since the projectile has a barrel to spawn from on said warframe, the projectile has to travel like / or \. I forget where the cross-over point is. Bit of very '13, but here's a video demonstration from way back in the day. The fundamental functionality of it hasn't changed, so the vid is still actually relevant. IIRC it's a little less bad now, though. Unfortunately didn't throw a waypoint, but iirc that shot was something like 100-200m.

On prioritizing, you should be. That charger is a problem, but nowhere near as dangerous as that Ancient Healer. Same with that Lancer and that Bombard (or worse, Napalm). And on the lanka that headshot is a free 4x you'll likely need at higher levels.

On confusion in that paragraph.... Target acquisition / target switch are basically the same thing. Variables, n was the number of enemies within the search cone (typically n is an input count), and m was the arbitrary limit on when it stops showing the guide. You're describing M=1, I was originally thinking of suggesting m=3 or so. On calculations, the way something like this works, for it to be snappy and useful, you need the calculation to already be available when you need to render. However, there's likely some physics property you can run through a formula (which you'd need to run anyways for distance and drift to be accounted for) to get close, and since this is just an estimate not an actual predictive guide, close is good enough.

 

3 minutes ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Exactly. Fine as a rifle, but not fine as a sniper. XP

It is superb as a rifle, but if you tell me it's superb as a sniper, well... Vectis Prime begs to differ.

And the Vectis Prime would be wrong.

Lanka is 525 x4 x4.4 = 9240 minimum per-bullet cold headshot of pure electric

Vectis Prime 350 x2 x1.4 x1.6 = 1568 minimum per-bullet cold headshot of physical mixed

A sniper that doesn't reliably kill on a cold hit is not a sniper, it's a DMR. The Vectis Prime is just the king of the DMRs. If you have a crit chance riven, then the Vectis Prime can compete, but without guaranteed crits from a cold start, the Lanka is in a whole 'nother league. And that's without considering the fact that the Lanka is capable of pure Corosive and pure Radiation- the two strongest elements against heavy targets.

_{Lanka assumes 8x zoom, Point Strike, and Vital Sense.}
^{Vectis Prime assumes 6x zoom, Charged Chamber, and an implicit Depleted Reload.}

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

47 minutes ago, TheBlueJelly said:

On calling it a crutch mod.... The difference between a crutch and a mechanic is quite simply whether the benefit is something that is traditionally a player skill. As an example, in a game like Monster Hunter, the iframe-boosting special is usually considered a "crutch" in most fights, as you can derive all of its benefits from a mix of better positioning, attack reading, and dodge timing instead. In this case, it would add an assist for hitting a target at long range that could instead be estimated by the player via intuitive distance estimation (or precise, there's a rangefinder on the scope) and both estimation and prediction of movement.

As such, it is providing assistance on something that can be naturally handled by simple player skill. Headshotting a sk8rboi when he slid behind a crate 100m out is something that you can "easily" do right now (in a recent Ambulas sortie 3 I did two in a row). It's a crutch mod plain and simple.

On the drift, it's most obvious at longer distances but you can "notice" it at really close distances too. The reason is the camera shows like this: | but the warframe is on one side of that line and, since the projectile has a barrel to spawn from on said warframe, the projectile has to travel like / or \. I forget where the cross-over point is. Bit of very '13, but here's a video demonstration from way back in the day. The fundamental functionality of it hasn't changed, so the vid is still actually relevant. IIRC it's a little less bad now, though. Unfortunately didn't throw a waypoint, but iirc that shot was something like 100-200m.

On prioritizing, you should be. That charger is a problem, but nowhere near as dangerous as that Ancient Healer. Same with that Lancer and that Bombard (or worse, Napalm). And on the lanka that headshot is a free 4x you'll likely need at higher levels.

On confusion in that paragraph.... Target acquisition / target switch are basically the same thing. Variables, n was the number of enemies within the search cone (typically n is an input count), and m was the arbitrary limit on when it stops showing the guide. You're describing M=1, I was originally thinking of suggesting m=3 or so. On calculations, the way something like this works, for it to be snappy and useful, you need the calculation to already be available when you need to render. However, there's likely some physics property you can run through a formula (which you'd need to run anyways for distance and drift to be accounted for) to get close, and since this is just an estimate not an actual predictive guide, close is good enough.

And the Vectis Prime would be wrong.

Lanka is 525 x4 x4.4 = 9240 minimum per-bullet cold headshot of pure electric

Vectis Prime 350 x2 x1.4 x1.6 = 1568 minimum per-bullet cold headshot of physical mixed

A sniper that doesn't reliably kill on a cold hit is not a sniper, it's a DMR. The Vectis Prime is just the king of the DMRs. If you have a crit chance riven, then the Vectis Prime can compete, but without guaranteed crits from a cold start, the Lanka is in a whole 'nother league. And that's without considering the fact that the Lanka is capable of pure Corosive and pure Radiation- the two strongest elements against heavy targets.

_{Lanka assumes 8x zoom, Point Strike, and Vital Sense.}
^{Vectis Prime assumes 6x zoom, Charged Chamber, and an implicit Depleted Reload.}

Vectis Prime fires faster, doesn't require charge time, reloads faster (though more often), & is hitscan. You are taking flat damage without factoring fire rate for DPS. Comparisons such as this only work properly with copied builds, but you have 2 different builds.

Lanka, as a weapon (not a sniper), is leagues above Vectis Prime. This is true, though not as a sniper, but as a rifle functioning at shorter than sniper ranges. You may be missing that point.

On prioritizing, you described CQC, short, & medium range situations. Remember again, we're talking 100m+ here. The only threats should be sniper units (with any other firearms just being peashooter nuisances; sniping Infested don't yet exist), the environment, or heavy ordnance (orbital weapons, ships, & air support). A Bombard or Napalm can be easily dodged assuming they are seen, if they even fire towards the player at such long distances in the first place. A Charger is too far out to close the distance fast enough, or even detect/register the player.

On Vectis Prime's inability to 1HKO, what level is this at? Sortie level? We're getting back into the issue of level scaling with this point. At what ranges are you engaging enemies with your snipers?

On crutch mods. When I stated that mods should only be considered for their QoL buffs, & how it would require nerfs to the mandatory mods. As a hypothetical, which would you choose? 20% more total damage (nerfed version of a raw damage mod), or a mod that makes headshots easier? I would choose 20% more total damage if I were a shorter range player, but the headshot assist mod if I were a marksman type player.

Edited August 21, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Eirshy]

1 hour ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Vectis Prime fires faster, doesn't require charge time, reloads faster (though more often), & is hitscan. You are taking flat damage without factoring fire rate for DPS. Comparisons such as this only work properly with copied builds, but you have 2 different builds.

Lanka, as a weapon (not a sniper), is leagues above Vectis Prime. This is true, though not as a sniper, but as a rifle functioning at shorter than sniper ranges. You may be missing that point.

On prioritizing, you described CQC, short, & medium range situations. Remember again, we're talking 100m+ here. The only threat should be sniper units (with any other firearms just being peashooter nuisances; sniping Infested don't yet exist), the environment, or heavy ordnance (orbital weapons, ships, & air support). A Bombard or Napalm can be easily dodged assuming they are seen, if they even fire towards the player at such long distances in the first place. A Charger is too far out to close the distance fast enough, or even detect/register the player.

On Vectis Prime's inability to 1HKO, what level is this at? Sortie level? We're getting back into the issue of level scaling with this point. At what ranges are you engaging enemies with your snipers?

VecP has a depleted reload cycle time of 0.57s, Lanka has a charge time of 1s, or 0.625s if Speed Triggered; reload is every 10 shots for 2s. Applying that 2s reload cost per-shot you're at 0.825s per speed triggered shot- just under 45% more time spent per, for a minimum damage that is nearly 6x higher before accounting for type matchups (which absurdly favor the Lanka).

Additionally, the charge time is typically spent lining up the shot. So it's not exactly wasted time.

But if that wasn't enough.... You are literally arguing DPS over TTK_max in the sniper role.
I honestly nearly just highlighted that part of your post and replied: w e w l a d

 

On prioritizing, no I didn't- you are inserting range where there was none before. I described a couple of different "crowd" situations where you've got a selection of targets moving towards you and need to pick an order to pop them. You're describing a "perfect" sniping situation which almost never comes up. One in which the enemy is also unaware and is at "Open World" distances.

On not oneshotting, 60, eidolons. Lanka can't either without crazy buffs that can also take the VP that high, but that's the foe I know the level of off the top of my head that can't be oneshotted. However, depending on whether you went coro or radi, bombards or hgunners (respectively) should stop being oneshottable on worst case rolls (double no crit, or worse, single no crit) somewhere before 80.

As for what ranges am I engaging enemies with my snipers... Visual range. Whether that's 5m or 500m depends on the map.

Vectis Prime is the better rifle, not the better sniper. It trades the Lanka's flex-tape-rending damage for a significantly better snap shot. Is that 300m shot easier with the VP? Yes. But I've been using the Lanka long enough I still have an accuracy rating significantly over 100% on it from back when its damage type was "Serrated Blade". That 300m shot, so long as I'm not cold, typically lands the first time. Because of that, when I bring the VP over the Lanka, it's typically because I require mobility more than power.

And even then I'd typically bring my Tiberon Prime (or even my Strad or Arg, both have rivens) instead, as it's actually a proper rifle, but has a fast-enough TTK_avg against heavies to serve in a non-stealth "light sniping" role.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

On crutch mods. When I stated that mods should only be considered for their QoL buffs, & how it would require nerfs to the mandatory mods. As a hypothetical, which would you choose? 20% more total damage (nerfed version of a raw damage mod), or a mod that makes headshots easier? I would choose 20% more total damage if I were a shorter range player, but the headshot assist mod if I were a marksman type player. 

20% more total damage because I don't need nor want inaccurate assistance.
lol

Edited August 21, 2018 by TheBlueJelly

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

8 hours ago, TheBlueJelly said:

VecP has a depleted reload cycle time of 0.57s, Lanka has a charge time of 1s, or 0.625s if Speed Triggered; reload is every 10 shots for 2s. Applying that 2s reload cost per-shot you're at 0.825s per speed triggered shot- just under 45% more time spent per, for a minimum damage that is nearly 6x higher before accounting for type matchups (which absurdly favor the Lanka).

Additionally, the charge time is typically spent lining up the shot. So it's not exactly wasted time.

But if that wasn't enough.... You are literally arguing DPS over TTK_max in the sniper role.
I honestly nearly just highlighted that part of your post and replied: w e w l a d

On prioritizing, no I didn't- you are inserting range where there was none before. I described a couple of different "crowd" situations where you've got a selection of targets moving towards you and need to pick an order to pop them. You're describing a "perfect" sniping situation which almost never comes up. One in which the enemy is also unaware and is at "Open World" distances.

On not oneshotting, 60, eidolons. Lanka can't either without crazy buffs that can also take the VP that high, but that's the foe I know the level of off the top of my head that can't be oneshotted. However, depending on whether you went coro or radi, bombards or hgunners (respectively) should stop being oneshottable on worst case rolls (double no crit, or worse, single no crit) somewhere before 80.

As for what ranges am I engaging enemies with my snipers... Visual range. Whether that's 5m or 500m depends on the map.

Vectis Prime is the better rifle, not the better sniper. It trades the Lanka's flex-tape-rending damage for a significantly better snap shot. Is that 300m shot easier with the VP? Yes. But I've been using the Lanka long enough I still have an accuracy rating significantly over 100% on it from back when its damage type was "Serrated Blade". That 300m shot, so long as I'm not cold, typically lands the first time. Because of that, when I bring the VP over the Lanka, it's typically because I require mobility more than power.

And even then I'd typically bring my Tiberon Prime (or even my Strad or Arg, both have rivens) instead, as it's actually a proper rifle, but has a fast-enough TTK_avg against heavies to serve in a non-stealth "light sniping" role.

20% more total damage because I don't need nor want inaccurate assistance.
lol

DPS is what determines TTK. DPS is determined by raw damage per projectile, fire rate, reload time, & for charged weapons, initial charge up. I mention DPS because if one wants to determine TTK on a specific enemy, it's entirely necessarily to know this. When the enemy is going to die on the first attack, TTK is more important because DPS becomes unnecessary as the enemy dies on contact. If the enemy doesn't die on the first attack, DPS is required to calculate out a projected TTK. DPS & TTK quite literally go hand-in-hand. TTK just goes solo for instagibs. At no point did I say that DPS was more important than TTK. I was, however, pointing out a flaw of logic. You compared a Vectis Prime to a Lanka even though both had two completely different builds. That's a faulty comparison.

On prioritizing, maybe you didn't mean to include range, & yet, you worded the situation as such. "That Charger is a problem". Who's problem? Is it the objective's problem, or the problem of a teammate engaging in CQC? It's certainly not the sniping player's problem, as they're not the one getting hurt. I highly doubt that a location other than PoE exists (besides Fortuna) that allows an engagement of 500m to take place.

You say that Lanka is the better sniper because it's TTK is low (enabled by stupid high DPS... btw). I say Vectis Prime is the better sniper because it can actually reach out & hit faraway stuffs. In cases where Vectis Prime actually 1HKOs, it's the better sniper. In all cases, Vectis Prime still reaches out & touches the enemy. Saying that Lanka is the better sniper because it has higher DPS (again, the whole reason it has a low TTK) is nonsensical when you're only engaging the enemy at standard rifle ranges, not sniper ranges. Is Opticor a better sniper than Vectis Prime now? What rules are we playing by here?

Hold on. Maybe I should describe Lanka as something other than a rifle. Calling it just a rifle discounts its immense power. 'Anti-materiel rifle' should work. Still no good at fodder sniping though. I personally like popping the dropships on PoE. The dropships can actually be sniped because they're such big targets. Good luck on sniping anything else past 100m. A real sniper would actually be good at that. Am I asking too much? I don't think so.

I don't care about Tiberon Prime. We're talking about snipers.

20% more damage in all cases? Do you grasp the concept of "playstyle refinement"? Because I don't think you do. Assistance for accuracy is meant to extend the effective range of weapons for marksman type players. I basically stated that already but you must've missed the point again.

"w e w l a d"    <<<<   I'm liking the snark that stems from frustration.

Edited August 22, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom
Note to self: *Try* to diffuse argument if it goes further.