Nuker abilities should be limited by line of sight

[UFOLoche]

12 minutes ago, Rann0n said:

I'm not trying forcing you to play how I want. I just post my feedback about how I see the game could be changed to become better. It's up to DE to decide whether to leave everything as is or make changes.

Can I just point out how ironic it is that the guy with the Umbra avatar wants LoS nerfs on everything else?  I wonder what ability isn't a nuke and would still be able to go through walls with this proposed nerf *coughexaltedbladecough*.

Lemme also point out something: LoS in this game SUCKS.  Have you ever popped Radial Blind and not blinded someone directly in front of you?  I have, and it still happens to this day, not as often, but it does happen.  It's annoying.  Stop trying to slap awful nerfs on something.

Instead, focus on buffing things that need to be buffed, how about we raise some awareness for frames and weapons that desperately need some love instead of trying to, once again, hamper other people's enjoyment?

Edited August 20, 2018 by UFOLoche

[izzatuw]

Tbh I'm pretty disappointed that everyone seems to want "balance" for the sake of "balance"

Ask yourselves a couple things before making a thread like this.

- Would it essentially change the core gameplay to something it potentially isn't? Some people like the power house capabilities WF offers no other game does. 

- Should realism be taken into account? Yes, no? Why? Why can a single bow arrow launch 5-6 enemies in a single line also launch them an extra 5-10 meters before they hit a wall?  

 

- How realistically would/does this effect gameplay? Reminder that Warframe maps are faaaar from the widest most open world. How consistent would this be to something that'd work like Avalanche or Rhino Stomp? Should LOS dictate that just because they're a wall behind the enemy should get zero, no damage? 

 

[(PSN)xXKing--GenjiXx]

6 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

Tbh I'm pretty disappointed that everyone seems to want "balance" for the sake of "balance"

Ask yourselves a couple things before making a thread like this.

- Would it essentially change the core gameplay to something it potentially isn't? Some people like the power house capabilities WF offers no other game does. 

- Should realism be taken into account? Yes, no? Why? Why can a single bow arrow launch 5-6 enemies in a single line also launch them an extra 5-10 meters before they hit a wall?  

 

- How realistically would/does this effect gameplay? Reminder that Warframe maps are faaaar from the widest most open world. How consistent would this be to something that'd work like Avalanche or Rhino Stomp? Should LOS dictate that just because they're a wall behind the enemy should get zero, no damage? 

 

Just by this response should just close up this thread because this basically covers it.

[(PSN)holysbackup]

Dumbest S#&$ Ive read in a while. Always so amazed when people want something in a non pvp gamed to be nerfed. Don't argue that's it's pvp because "it has pvp". It's not a pvp focused or driven game. It's called playing alone... I don't like the lazy aspect of nuke moves... Well don't use them... That's the Beauty of pve games. You don't have to use everybodies go-to build. If you don't like something, avoid it... Simple as that. 

[(PSN)xXKing--GenjiXx]

You know one thing I dislike about this is the fact that you only thinking about yourself and how it'll benefits you and how you play. Have you thought, "Hm, I wonder how my friends would feel if this was actually in the game?" The whole Loss thing is kinda applied to Mesa's Peacemaker but you want that handicap on ALL op frames? 

 

That's like a Lamborghini only going 100mph because it's too fast. That's the point because it's a very fast car. All op frames have a reasoning for being op. You put in Los on them and that takes away and makes them unplayable. DE already nerfted abilities but you, out of all people, want LoS. 

K. 👌

[(XBOX)Artakka]

2 hours ago, Crimson-Tenno said:

he isn't even talking about who is getting the kills, it's about lazy gameplay mechanics that should be removed.

I mean, it's not really that lazy. Nuke abilities are only "nukes" when you've put effort into min/maxing your builds. At that point, you've already spent so much effort building your warframe, I think you're entitled to a bit of laziness. There's a fine line between laziness and refinement however. That's why Ember got nerfed, and Octavia remains untouched.

[SnazzyZ]

3 hours ago, TempusShift said:

1) LOS is not easier to implement than altering range or power. Since the latter two are just variables, LOS is a whole set of calculations.

2) As said before nukes act like nukes should, destroy everything and don't care about what's in between. The abilities that go through walls act like they would irl rather than some defined restrictions. For example ember's world on fire can be avoided by hiding behind a wall as one would expect, but volts 4 (an electrical surge) cuts through everything.

3) there are abilities in the game that are line of sight that shouldn't be, i.e. octavia's abilities don't make sense to be los because that isn't how sound works. If you face speakers the other way you can still hear whatever music you are playing.

4) all of the nuke frames have their issues, the biggest being it makes them super glassy which is why they have to stand in the corners as to avoid getting downed. Another is that many of the builds aren't easy to achieve so are accomplishments in their own right (I've had to put 7 forma into frost to make an onslaught machine). Then another is that these builds work in very fiew game modes mostly defense and onslaught where you can stand in one place, they are entirely impractical for captures, rescues, assassinations, etc. Also as mentioned before most nuke frames are heavily capped by energy (i.e. my frost nuke only has the base 150 energy so I can only cast a few times before I have to wait)

5) Instead of complaining about a game "letting you be lazy" stop being lazy. That is 100% on you not on the game to change around you to suit your personal whims.

1 - LOS is already something that have implemented as you’ve stated with Octavia. 

2 - my issue with nukes is not the fact they are high damage, but how spammable those abilities are. That’s what this thread is about, changing the “sit in the corner press 4 and win” playstyle. It’s not a healthy style of play as it’s almost no play at all. 

3 - also sound is not inherently omnidirectional and loses a lot of its kick when obstructed, a speaker is exponentially louder when it’s facing you unobstructed then away from you or through objects. 

4 - I’ve stated before, being squishy does not mean anything when enemies are dead before even coming into your room, energy management is a mute point as there are a plethora of ways to never run out of energy and no those ways don’t require much of any effort. 

5 - instead the the option to be lazy should not be available. If your idea of addressing an issue is shoving it under the rug than all you’re doing is wasting people’s time. 

[SirArlen]

This is a horrible idea. Have you ever dealt with sortie level enemies? Especially the bombards n the heavy gunners, their ehp is INSANE, plus they could be spawned as a energy leech eximus with required NO line of sight to leech all of your energy. Oh, you say something about arcane energize? Oh yeah, that set of arcane is very cheap and available to every player I'm sure. If you want line of sight required for nuke frame, the first thing to tackle is the enemy scaling, then the dumb energy leech eximus. After that, if nuke frame required line of sight to operate, I'll be totally fine with that

[Commander]

I disagree. This is a co-op game, not competitive. Your lack of self-control does not warrant a change to the game. I have Volt, and I use him and I have his range mods, and I use him on Hydron in particular (just about the only place I like to use him) and for everywhere else I play Loki, Ash, Oberon, Umbra, Nekros. In other words, if you play the game to have fun, like any logical human being would for something that is a essentially a waste of time (a video game), you wouldn't really care what other people are using, and therefore would not need an "incentive" to not be "lazy."

[SnazzyZ]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)Young Boy HT said:

I mean, it's not really that lazy. Nuke abilities are only "nukes" when you've put effort into min/maxing your builds. At that point, you've already spent so much effort building your warframe, I think you're entitled to a bit of laziness. There's a fine line between laziness and refinement however. That's why Ember got nerfed, and Octavia remains untouched.

Octavia doesn’t pass through walls and is a much smaller range, and at no point in the game are you entitled to hit autoplay. If you don’t want to actually play then simply don’t get on until you do. 

[SnazzyZ]

4 minutes ago, SirArlen said:

This is a horrible idea. Have you ever dealt with sortie level enemies? Especially the bombards n the heavy gunners, their ehp is INSANE, plus they could be spawned as a energy leech eximus with required NO line of sight to leech all of your energy. Oh, you say something about arcane energize? Oh yeah, that set of arcane is very cheap and available to every player I'm sure. If you want line of sight required for nuke frame, the first thing to tackle is the enemy scaling, then the dumb energy leech eximus. After that, if nuke frame required line of sight to operate, I'll be totally fine with that

Yeah cause Octavia suffers so heavily from needing LOS :v 

[Soketsu]

OH NO ! HE'S HIDING BEHIND THE WALL, MY SOUND HAS NOT EFFECT ON HIM !

I guess we will create meme from this idea x)

If you do think it will force players to more actively play, then It make me wonder if you did really see how a veteran tenno can adapt such change within a week.

 

I'm sorry if you find this offensive, the last guy I try to debate with here, use most of my will to discuss, but If you are really ready to discuss and understand each other, I'm winlling to try.

[SnazzyZ]

5 minutes ago, Bird_God said:

I disagree. This is a co-op game, not competitive. Your lack of self-control does not warrant a change to the game. I have Volt, and I use him and I have his range mods, and I use him on Hydron in particular (just about the only place I like to use him) and for everywhere else I play Loki, Ash, Oberon, Umbra, Nekros. In other words, if you play the game to have fun, like any logical human being would for something that is a essentially a waste of time (a video game), you wouldn't really care what other people are using, and therefore would not need an "incentive" to not be "lazy."

The issue is not “hey that guy does more than me” I don’t care who does the most, but more often than not I’ll go into a defense and a main equinox will just sit on the pod without moving once and killing enemies on the spot as they spawn. Nukes need to be less unconditional and less spammable. I don’t care about the damage they do. 

If you’re so lazy that you want to put in that little effort, why are you playing in the first place?

[asimiteni]

10 hours ago, Rann0n said:

I like it when a GAME lets me be powerful. I don't like when the game lets me be LAZY. Is spamming 1-2 buttons while sitting in the corner the WHOLE POINT of Warframe? I doubt it. And as far as I'm aware, devs don't like this style either and are trying to dispose of it. Take recent melee tweak for example.

I don't want warframes to be less powerful. I want passive gameplay become much less rewarding than active gameplay.

 

Well then dont be lazy. Play as you like and let others play as they like.

And anyway i dont think there are frames so powerful that they can kill high level/waves that easily with aoe skills and even if there are, not everyone is skilled enough to use them. I mean play as you like, nobodys stopping you, you might as well handicap yourself with not using anymods and play to make it "intresting" and active play for you.

[Commander]

36 minutes ago, PolarFall said:

The issue is not “hey that guy does more than me” I don’t care who does the most, but more often than not I’ll go into a defense and a main equinox will just sit on the pod without moving once and killing enemies on the spot as they spawn. Nukes need to be less unconditional and less spammable. I don’t care about the damage they do. 

If you’re so lazy that you want to put in that little effort, why are you playing in the first place?

I just told you why I'm playing, I have fun with the game. Volt is a frame I enjoy, and most of my loadouts are built around speed and power, and I have one for range that I use for leveling. For plenty of other missions, even defense, despite Volt debatedly being the most efficient choice, I'll play Ash, or Loki, or something else. The fun doesnt necessarily come from the arbitrary grind that is leveling every weapon that I dont want to use to 30 when I dont like how it plays, or using forma on things. I can appreciate Warframe gets you to try new things, but it becomes monotonous.

If your issue is "I dont get to kill anything because [frame] kills everything"  then run solo or with people you know.

Also based on the way some of these abilities work, Volts in particular, nerfing them based solely on LoS would trivialize them. So, it's a bad idea. All is as it should be. If theyre going to add something, I think they should add a smarter, more tactical faction to fight against IMO. One that sets traps for you or creates unfavorable positioning for you deliberately instead of walking in single file lines towards the cryopod and other objectives.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Bird_God

[Darox985]

5 hours ago, PolarFall said:

Equinox banshee ember volt saryn. 

Ember is basically useless past level 50 enemies. Even with the damage doubling, her range gets low enough she'll get shot and die before her 4 even targets enemies; her damage type is also awful vs Armor, even at that low of a level.

[Emperrier]

Dear DE,

 

Other people are having fun. I don't like it, please fix.

[ZackNeutron]

I smell salt on this thread, cuz OP can't get killz cuz of other player nuked them 1st.

Am I right, huh?

Sorry to be rude, I become sick of this kind of people. Always complain something he didn't like but the majority loves it.

[Pizzarugi]

11 hours ago, kyori said:

I think the real only problem you face is... other players kill more than you. I’d advise play solo if so, or recruit a group that doesn’t contain any op frames. 

Other players kill more than me. Yep, that's gotta be it. Absolutely can't be because I don't want to play this game like a space-age roomba that vacuums up drops and nothing else, or AFK at a defense objective in a team of 4 while ONE PERSON clears the entire level by themselves. Nope, that can't be it.

Also, can we stop suggesting players play solo or use recruitment chat just to run one mission which will likely disband afterwards? It's irrelevant, and it's you deliberately trying to avoid a problem. Press-4-to-win is indeed an issue this game has in its current state, especially when DE insists that all game content needs to stay in the stupid star chart that only goes up to level 40-60 at best. And don't tell me about Elite Alerts that is being developed right now, doing a level 80+ mission once every hour does little to fix this.

Shouldn't the onus be on the people who abuse these nuke powers to play solo? Clearly they have no need for a full team since they can do everything 4 people can do, so why don't they play solo? Is it because you know for a fact that enemy spawns in solo are complete garbage, and yield nowhere near as much loot compared to a team, so you have to piggyback on their presence just to maximize your grind at the expense of your teammates' fun? And nobody is going to waste 10+ minutes spamming recruitment chat just to find a team to run a single mission, it's unrealistic, and it's an attempt by people like you who don't want to admit that the game has balance issues.
 

 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Pizzarugi

[ZodiacShinryu]

38 minutes ago, Darox985 said:

Ember is basically useless past level 50 enemies. Even with the damage doubling, her range gets low enough she'll get shot and die before her 4 even targets enemies; her damage type is also awful vs Armor, even at that low of a level.

Maybe you should stop using WoF as her main source of damage. It has never been her most powerful source since her first rework anyway.

[(PSN)hereticSky]

I just want to point out that pressing 4 to win is strongly discouraged in ESO which is essentially a caster frame playground... But please, try to stay on top of those efficiency past wave 4 with your "active gameplay".

Also, I detest this term of "active gameplay". You don't know how long and what effort it took me to able to min max my caster frames, but you are quick to judge me for lazy gameplay? 

I've not played equinox beyond mr fodder so i can't tell you anything meaningful about it but the other three caster frames being mentioned I've played extensively.

Ember: yes, ember is essentially a cast 4 and forget, but due to the rework, demands a playstyle that requires you to move, a lot. Because that decrease in range is balanced by the increase in strength.

Volt: the passive warrants movement, one of the very skills is to increase movement. If you're not moving around, you're not doing yourself justice. Furthermore, the rework made it so the damage falls off after certain range for discharge. So if you want to be efficient, you move around the tile set.

Saryn: all I'm going to say is if you don't manage your spores and your toxic lash, you'll lose a lot of dps. And if you're using her for just miasma, you're already losing out on dps.

At the end of the day, if you consider Warframes to be classes, this is an incredibly versatile and diverse game with a plethora of classes. But you want to play it in one specific way (which by the way you haven't disclosed yet, what in your opinion is "active gameplay", you merely bashed casters) and I think you're wrong.

[taiiat]

10 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

And this is why I really dislike corrupted mods, they're probably the main culprit for this even being a problem in the first place.

Blind Rage is the only fair corrupted mod imo, since efficiency is important to every ability.

i agree in principle, due to it being concerningly easy to bypass the negatives of Corrupted Mods.

uhhh, Efficiency is the easiest dump stat these days? there's so many ways to just have tons of Energy always. so running low Efficiency is a pretty popular way to get free Stats.
Efficiency is important if you're not abusing the built in 'cheat codes', but.

[Case1]

Nukers aren't an issue, whiners seem to be tho.

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i agree in principle, due to it being concerningly easy to bypass the negatives of Corrupted Mods.

uhhh, Efficiency is the easiest dump stat these days? there's so many ways to just have tons of Energy always. so running low Efficiency is a pretty popular way to get free Stats.
Efficiency is important if you're not abusing the built in 'cheat codes', but.

See previous post on the matter, I honestly forgot to take into accout Zenurik and such.

As said, I run Wukong who has 2 channeled abilities, not like I ever make use of Pizzas and Zenurik.

It used to be the fairest, back before focus. If you were going to dump efficiency you had to have Pizzas ready to spam constantly, or a Trinity on hand. Anything less and your build was crippled.

I'd love it if they just removed them tbh, perhaps have a hidden modifier in the Elite alerts where no Corrupted mod works and then watch as people (including me) freak out and try to adapt.

[(PSN)CelticMilitia]

I must disagree in principle on this. Well I get where you are coming from and I myself agree that I do not enjoy this style of play it is not my or yours or anybodies place to tell others how they must play the game. If someone enjoys stitting in the corner and killing things 10 walls away with  one to two button presses that is just as valid as a more active playstyle. It is not anyones place to tell them they are playing "wrong" if they are having fun. If that playstyle bothers you or it infringes on you having fun then you can always as some have pointed out, not play with that style of player but to say we need to change how people choose to play the game because you or me or anybody does not enjoy that type of playstyle is just not cool. We should be glad the game offeres many different playstyle we should not be encouraging less.

Edited August 20, 2018 by (PS4)CelticMilitia