Ceroneous
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Posts posted by Ceroneous
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23 hours ago, Proslackernifty said:
First, I'll say no thanks to all your suggestions. But especially no thanks to bosses taking 20-30 minutes. How long would it take to farm some of the frames if bosses took 30 minutes? I don't want to think about it.
Then there's this part...
Everyone would stop playing. This would actually kill the game faster than you can run a lith fissure. I can't even imagine what would have to be implemented to stop players from running through missions, but it would be stupid.
Not saying old content that is especially meant for fast in an out gameplay should just stop players from getting in and out ,but rather if new content or modes are introduced the could just make maps smaller with more complex rooms etc. I admit IDK what the hell I was on when I was saying 20-30mins, the only way stuff like that happens is if the content is so engaging/rewarding that people would be fine running it. Also Maybe rewards should be changed to so that there would be less tediousness in farming for stuff, I mean for Warframes we already gotta wait like 3 days +RNG for a lot of frames.
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On 2019-09-28 at 8:31 PM, Uhkretor said:
Misunderstanding what I'm saying and then making up whatever comes to your mind about its meaning because you didn't understand what I said properly isn't helpful to the discussion...
You said you wanted a meaningful discussion, and since this is a forum and we all write our thoughts here, you should probably make an extra effort to understand what people are saying.... even if you have to read the stuff once at least, instead of skimming through it, and you have to actually think about what that person said from multiple perspectives... If you think that your perspective is the only one that actually matters here, then your thought concerning your perspective is as stupid as assuming outright that I'm replying with stuff about me or my preferences... Which I'm not, as I stated before.
I'm seeing this from a "player base sphere" perspective. I'm not including the "common ground" player base spheres because those can adapt to the situation pretty fluently.
If you've read my other replies then at no point in my responses am I disregarding what others players are saying, many people have pointed out extreme or irrational ideas on my original post. They have successfully turned some of my opinions around such as reforming a huge system and instead of that introducing new elements while adjusting the game in places where the are needed. Your replies are good to see since I originally only viewed the "players skipping content" issue as an environmental issue. Also please correct me or clarify if I'm wrong ,but you think it's a player community issue where some people just decide playing it another way isn't worth the investment due to the amount of freedom we have on maps/mission?
On 2019-09-28 at 8:31 PM, Uhkretor said:On another note, I personally think that you're probably wasting your time since [DE]'s most likely already ahead of you on the matter and you're letting others know about you wasting your time... Its your time to waste, obviously, and you thought out some positive things but~.... you're already late to the party with your suggestions, if you gave any (I think you gave some)... After all, they've been sitting on the Emissary content for a year and half now (or more), I wouldn't be surprised that they already implemented new proper challenges on the new content.
They might very well be already taking care of those things ,but I wanted to see what the community views were on my ideas and sometimes it's necessary to just put a perspective out there even if it doesn't have all the answers or the whole picture. Hopefully there are challenges on content that we all can enjoy, and keep in mind I failed on my part to provide the context of my situation where I have been gone for like half a year after burning out on nightwave/void relic content. Also I realized later that the game we got today wasn't build overnight so that older content isn't necessarily representative of what could be coming our way etc.
On 2019-09-28 at 8:31 PM, Uhkretor said:Concerning the discussion and your personal hurry to shut me up by stating that I'm not having a meaningful discussion... As long as the discussion is meaningful to me, and "meaningful" is subjective AF!, you're going to have me here, one way or... another.
Also btw I am not here to shut you up Idk where you could've interpreted that, I originally thought you were chalking me up as some "complainer", but you've proven me wrong about that idea because you have a valid perspective. Ironically enough I do desire content that is challenging and rewarding that's the whole reason I made the post, I am against the whole zooming through the map gameplay ,but it's still environmentally the fastest method for repetitive content on older content (IMO including some open world content). Whether or not I'm right about any of my ideas, etc. is being pointed out by people like you or others with different perspectives/ideas because I'm not here to continually spout some half baked ideology.
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4 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:
... I can't really say this any other way...
... You're the one skipping them though... I'm not. And as you, and anyone else that decides the same, willingly choose to zoom through enemies and ignore them, so is the choice of using other cheesing methods... Like Saryn/Prime.
... On the other hand, I'm doing exactly the opposite... Why? Its not because I'm trying to find purpose on the available content. Its because getting rid of them pays more from a mission, and also get paid by my time spent on a given mission.
Which is usually called "revising/reworking content"... Like what happened with Jupiter, remember that one?
. Also, it doesn't quite matter what [DE] does, people always ignore enemies. When ignoring isn't an option, they nuke the entire map and leave 99% of the drops behind... The game was slow enough back on Parkour 1.0, and people asked for "SPEED!", to slow it down would imply taking out bullet jump, which would be a regression somewhere to Parkour 1.5, in which we would have the same result as Melee 2.99997, which basically is a regression to Melee 1.0, but with stances working on Quick Melee.
I'm sorry, but~... What's your point again? Because what I'm seeing is someone complaining that old maps need to be reworked, without actually saying it outright.
You may not be skipping or cheesing maps ,but the conversation isn't about you or your preferences. The thing is the fact that people that you even acknowledged are easily cheesing maps by skipping through says there is an issue w design (including saryn). If you are satisfied with your pay and I am not satisfied with mine that is where our conversation ends. It does matter what DE designs because if the objective is to kill 100 enemies people will stay to kill 100 enemies for the reward that's why it matters to rework enemies, and it's unrealistic to rework all the maps of course, but the old map (and new) design helps promote cheesing. All I'm asking for is better design, if I was just complaining then it would be "Warframe sucks, the gameplay sucks, maps suck, DE release better content". I have provided some examples and possible solutions to the issues I see about it. Hell, I see people in here with better ideas than me about how to improve the game. Overall the game isn't horrible, it's not in a crisis, if old maps (gas city, spy vaults,etc.) get reworked awesome.
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14 minutes ago, Goodwill said:
Ehh... I agree with your stance, but I think you may have gone too far in the other direction without considering some inbetween options.
I do agree Warframe could be "slowed" down. But by that, I don't mean arbitrary blocks like your standard single-player mission based game. I would rather parkour required more skill rather than how mind-numbingly easy it is now. Maybe make it that you could run past maybe 1 or 2 enemies, but any more would gun you down if you tried to ignore them. Or give enemies tether grenades. You'd think with how long they've fought the tenno, tether grenades would be standard issue by now. Maybe make it that enemies are quicker to lock down a tile making it that if you want to move fast, you have to both move fast and undetected if you don't want to be locked in.
I understand all of these are annoyances but it doesn't make sense for the enemy to let you through easily. They know of our speed and countermeasures should be introduced. However, if this will slow down the mission, rewards also need to be looked at to factor in the increase mission time. Make side objectives that give you bonus rewards. Complete mission undetected? More credits. Sabotaging the facility or ship? More bonus credits. Finding the leader of that enemy contingent and capturing him? Never enough credits. You can easily fit a lot of side objectives into a single node. However that player may have chosen that node for a focused objective (certain material or needed to complete for event) and can choose to ignore side objectives.
Bosses should most definitely not take 30 minutes to kill unless you are running underleveled and inneffective weapons. I think the kill time for normal bosses, 10 minutes max for the average player is reasonable. Considering you were referencing MHW, you should know that depending on the skill of the player, a hunt can be under 5 minutes on average. Under 3 for a skilled and lucky player, and if you are trying to speedrun, under 2 minutes.
I also think your topic is a bit too broad and some of the points you brought up deserve their own threads.Agreed, a few people are taking the MHW line a bit too literally when I haven't mentioned trying to turn it into that game lol. Warframe is it's own game and yeah I like your ideas about enemies finding countermeasures for the Warframes speed and power. Maybe it's less slowing the game down in general and instead finding spots where we need to adjust to allow more room for enemy diversity.
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49 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:
... I do have a counter point, but its as much of your interest as enemies you find on a given map since you, or anyone else that does the same thing for that matter, willingly chose to zoom through the map ignoring enemies...
Encounters are rewarding, provided you don't aim solely for those 5000 credits.
You get paid proportionally to the amount of work you do... If you do nothing other than aiming for those 5000 credits, then you only get those 5000 credits.
... so~, what's your point again?
My point is that we are literally skipping enemies/content without having a reason to participate in it, literally parts of the map have no other reason to exist and therefore is often just ran through. I'm not promoting that all content should be revised nor am denying that willful choice isn't a part of skipping areas, instead I'm saying that perhaps new content should be more purposeful, and allow room for more strategic decisions so as to not allow for cheese (AKA skipping past) basically. I believe that filling that space where we run through with purposeful map design and engaging unique enemies/situations can be beneficial.
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48 minutes ago, Daliena06 said:
I'm gonna say no to 30 minutes to fight ONE boss. That is a long-ass battle against a single opponent, and a real pain if you mess up (especially if combined with other ways to slow things down) because you can't just pop right back in at the start of the boss fight, you'll be clearing the entire level again.
And also, no thank you to Nox-style enemies being made more common until DE stops making weapons that can't headshot. My Arca Plasmor cries sad little tears every time I run into one.I am not promoting tedious battles or Nox style enemies just situations where we can be more engaged and less shoot first all the time. But yess I agree I may have been too generous about the complete time for boss fights lol.
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37 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:
I disagree. We have plodding, damage-phased, sponge enemies already that compensate with indiscriminate AoE damage and Mob Spawn Spam.
What is needed are enemies that are as fast and mobile and deadly as Warframes.
The most obvious comparison for me are those NASTY midsized tan, tick-like Orbs that pop and go nuts trying to kill you. They are infinitely more fun to fight than Orb Mother.
The NW Season 2 boss flirts with this.
Old school Manics that had a pounce finisher were a great example. (RIP nerf)
When is the last time something in the game ran at you and it gave you pause?
That quick dude in the summer squirt gun fight? 😆😆😆
I like that, thanks for adding to the discussion, gave me another perspective about another direction new content could go.
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15 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:
~ Complains about content not important ~
~ Willingly chooses to zoom through the map ignoring enemies for the 5000 credits ~
I also reinforce the idea that encounters are not rewarding therefore creating circumstances where WE speed through every map. Please don't cherry pick, looking for a respectable discussion, if you have a counter point bring it up it might change my mind.
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BTW guys to clarify I'm not comparing the two, I'm just making observations that I've noticed about the state of the game and I'm not saying changes gotta happen to all content I just mean I think some ideas should be incorporated or experimented with into new content.
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While playing MHW I started to realize how multilayered and engaging the content was on that game and that is because the strategy, skill and struggle to improve that makes the time investment worth it. After taking a break from Warframe due to the horrible relic farm for the Rhino unvaulting in 2018, I honestly haven't opened a relic ever since and I've realized why no matter what DE releases it will never matter the way it is atm. The main problem with Warframe content is the unimportance of the enemies, objectives and rewards. Literally most players including me don't bother to kill enemies on a majority of maps, we just zoom through maps to complete the objectives as fast as possible for 5000 credits. What Warframe needs is to slow the game down drastically, so that each map can be utilized to it's fullest. DE needs to give players a reason to strategically think, develop skills, and not run through the map carelessly. Gameplay IMO should be revamped so that enemies aren't just fodder, and get killed by overpowered weapons.
Ways to make content matter:
---Slow down pacing of the game by introducing stronger complex enemies that require skill development to defeat
(basically make it so bosses take around 20-30mins to beat with abilities and situtations that players have to learn to overcome that boss)
(good job on the ropalyst boss, but it needs another step further)
---Give rewards that matter and bonuses based on objective completion
(EX: Kuva rewards as a bonus for completing an objective)
---Introduce unique mechanics and situations for maps
(EX: Maybe there could be something like turrets that a team can utilize to take down a boss)
-Make rifles and other weapons matter
(EX: Make weapons like staticor have like 3 AOE charge blasts and needing to cool down after 3 uses to discourage spamming )
(Basically make multilayered weapons, they are just to simple and strong atm)
---Multilayered enemies
(Enemies are like the Nox and bombard should not be fodder, unique mechanics like shooting the helmet for increased damage is a good start)
(EX: Noxes, Noxi? should be absolutely scary to face, make them tankier and require helmet breaking to kill, bombards can have weak spots in their armor)
(Of course if enemies get stronger than the amount we face should adjust for balance)
---Make encounters with a sense of importance
(Each room in a map should be dangerous, at no point should players just run by enemies, maybe introduce room objectives and better rewards)
(Maps don't have to be so big either with this change)
(Include traps possibly, special buffs, room specific special weapons,etc.)
Conclusion: Warframe is unique of game course ,but as it is players are just too powerful, and content has to be absurdly difficult too even survive us. That's where it becomes tedious such as the Wolf of Saturn Six's huge HP pool and other issues like maps not having engaging encounters, and rewards to warrant playing the content. Overall the game isn't really being played right now, content is just being cheesed, hell I can't even remembers maps on the star chart since us players have just ran through most of it.
I do think there's a lot of positives in the game like the story quests, customization, and so on ,but I can't remember when I actually cared about taking down enemies.
What does everyone else think? -
While playing MHW I started to realize how multilayered and engaging the content was on that game and that is because the strategy, skill and struggle to improve that makes the time investment worth it. After taking a break from Warframe due to the horrible relic farm for the Rhino unvaulting in 2018, I honestly haven't opened a relic ever since and I've realized why no matter what DE releases it will never matter the way it is atm. The main problem with Warframe content is the unimportance of the enemies, objectives and rewards. Literally most players including me don't bother to kill enemies on a majority of maps, we just zoom through maps to complete the objectives as fast as possible for 5000 credits. What Warframe needs is to slow the game down drastically, so that each map can be utilized to it's fullest. DE needs to give players a reason to strategically think, develop skills, and not run through the map carelessly. Gameplay IMO should be revamped so that enemies aren't just fodder, and get killed by overpowered weapons.
Ways to make content matter:
---Slow down pacing of the game by introducing stronger complex enemies that require skill development to defeat
(basically make it so bosses take around 20-30mins to beat with abilities and situtations that players have to learn to overcome that boss)
(good job on the ropalyst boss, but it needs another step further)
---Give rewards that matter and bonuses based on objective completion
(EX: Kuva rewards as a bonus for completing an objective)
---Introduce unique mechanics and situations for maps
(EX: Maybe there could be something like turrets that a team can utilize to take down a boss)
-Make rifles and other weapons matter
(EX: Make weapons like staticor have like 3 AOE charge blasts and needing to cool down after 3 uses to discourage spamming )
(Basically make multilayered weapons, they are just to simple and strong atm)
---Multilayered enemies
(Enemies are like the Nox and bombard should not be fodder, unique mechanics like shooting the helmet for increased damage is a good start)
(EX: Noxes, Noxi? should be absolutely scary to face, make them tankier and require helmet breaking to kill, bombards can have weak spots in their armor)
(Of course if enemies get stronger than the amount we face should adjust for balance)
---Make encounters with a sense of importance
(Each room in a map should be dangerous, at no point should players just run by enemies, maybe introduce room objectives and better rewards)
(Maps don't have to be so big either with this change)
(Include traps possibly, special buffs, room specific special weapons,etc.)
Conclusion: Warframe is unique of game course ,but as it is players are just too powerful, and content has to be absurdly difficult too even survive us. That's where it becomes tedious such as the Wolf of Saturn Six's huge HP pool and other issues like maps not having engaging encounters, and rewards to warrant playing the content. Overall the game isn't really being played right now, content is just being cheesed, hell I can't even remembers maps on the star chart since us players have just ran through most of it.
I do think there's a lot of positives in the game like the story quests, customization, and so on ,but I can't remember when I actually cared about taking down enemies.
What does everyone else think?-
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Excalibur Umbra's lightning energy colors aren't working correctly for his howl, one of the lightning arcs is using his default.
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Gara Zamariu Tennogen helm energy colors don't match, it appears blue for the small crystals hanging on the helmet.
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Nekros Energy colors aren't working properly, they are blue instead of pink,etc.
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I've spawned twice in the floor where the stage rises and I'm not quite sure what causes it, I did notice that it happened to other players too. It's also important to note that /unstuck doesn't spawn you up top for the boss fight, instead it spawns you below which doesn't allow you to continue on with the mission.
Scarlet Spear rewards looked very expensive on devstream
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by Ceroneous
Yeah, one way to balance rewards would probably be to diversify what you get for running a mission, like endo for ground and kuva for space; so that newbies/middle tier players run the ground more often and vets run the space mission.