Sinner

I wish we could get a response about their decision from this point after all this discussion has been made. It's really frustrating to have all these different points shared and literal math shown on why 30% is too low as well as how it impacts the accessibility for open world bosses and just be left with no response, nothing but silence from DE about the complaints. They get all this credit for being one of the most communicative dev teams and yet I still feel very left in the dark on their entire process and ideas, even moreso about nerfs like this.

What's crazy is you also don't need DR for trash mobs and the damage you gain for the demolyst is worse than roar on the vast majority of loadouts.

Great then you can go ahead and use your subsumes and I'll make my arguments for buffing the damage on eclipse. If you don't want to do hard content then you don't need to optimize your damage or overall setup. It's fine if you don't want to, but that's no reason to nerf other people's builds. Also why are you searching up my own usage rates? Just cuz I have like 20% playtime on volt doesn't mean I don't have playtime with health tanking. Very few frames can health tank to the 1000s and that's with a lot of struggle and loadout synergies to keep themselves alive so a 75% DR wouldn't make it any more viable since by then even 1 round would scale their damage beyond what any amount of DR less than 100% could provide. You seem to want to attack me or other players playstyles because we do harder content than to actually talk about the issues where this change matters but you're so focused on lower levels that it's not even a helpful discussion.

Because in this game it is much easier to avoid getting hit or avoid the damage altogether than it is to try and survive hits. That's why DR is bad but gloom is very good, since enemies shoot at you very slowly and you get like a year to react to everything around you. For world bosses, eclipse is there to help 1 shot targets easier so you can be faster at these things like PT shields and eidolon limbs. Reducing the multiplier lower than 120% here hurts these metas very hard. For normal missions, there were strategies to keep eclipse at certain light levels like using invisibility in a bright spot since for some reason becoming invis locks in the amount of light your character has, or by heat proccing yourself, or by using certain abilities with high particle effects turned up. This is very character specific so it wasn't really worth bringing up, but it's a factor. Being able to kill targets faster like demolishers or eximus is one of the best ways to stay alive and get energy orb drop rates. Since it's a weapon damage multiplier, it's whole identity is around just raw damage gunplay so this nerf basically kills an entire playstyle.

You can't use both DR and damage at the same time, you have to pick 1 at a time. Again the fact that the damage from the ability was and still is the main factor does not change with the 75% Dr offered from choosing to not use the damage. The ability to swap between these 2 stats should not be valued so highly that we have to nerf the damage of the ability this drastically because a lot of setups depended on this damage buff being such a high multiplier. Clearly they realize this with mirage herself since that is left at 200% (which is good, no complaints there). And even if the DR was this strong, by nerfing the damage you quite literally lock in the fact that the subsume just IS a Dr ability and nothing more since if I wanted damage then I would use roar 10 times out of 10, but if the ability to swap is so valuable then maybe the 75% is too strong so that should be nerfed to 30% as well. It's the same thought process just with the focus flipped. Being able to swap the buff is functionally useless since the player would either want 1 or the other all the time, and if they wanted to swap between them then we already have that system balanced with energy costs and a full body 1s animation. That alone should be enough reason to give us a respectable damage buff of 75% or more. It's also heavily worth pointing out that player DR in this game quickly becomes more and more useless the higher the level the enemy goes. Simply going into SP conjunction survival or even the new SP netracells thing that they are bringing with the update would be enough to still 1 shot you after shield gate through that DR, and if you modded health and armor then you still die very quickly since this is a hoard shooter (although sometimes it doesn't feel that way). This is all just to say that while yes it is giving DR as an option, not only do a handful of people not care about the ability to swap between DR and damage, but the DR is also literally useless in higher level content and thus should not be considered valuable enough to be worth judging. Eclipse IS damage.

If we want to take an average from all players then I don't even think a majority of players have the helminth system to begin with. And I bet the players who do have it, only a fraction of them may have even subsumed mirage on and another fraction probably haven't ever subsumed eclipse. It doesn't require mapping out what areas have it and what doesn't to the degree your thinking because open worlds are actually really hard to find dark areas at all. The light areas are quite literally the entire surface of the map that isn't directly shaded by a cliff, and those shadows are small and don't even switch you to DR. In terms of all areas that do provide light, you are getting a solid amount of damage much higher than 30% especially if you average them together so I do think 120% is a fair estimate if you purely want to go off of averages. The value I expect to see is more around 75-90% since I think this is more in line with where a strong damage buff like this should be if we let the subsume keep the ability to swap between DR and damage.

ME ILL ASK FOR IT. SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE SAID THE DR IS IRRELEVANT. Anyone who thinks eclipse would be a good DR ability then please look at null star or gloom. Both of them are much better for health tanking. We could do something like chromas 2 where chroma himself can change the element while subsumers can only preselect their element with an emissive color.

Ok so let's discuss it that way then. A lot of people who are subsuming eclipse know exactly what tilesets or areas they are going to be in to get the buffs they are looking for. For fortuna and plains, this buff was very high, like 90+% of the listed buff so around 130% at the worst. So for PT and eidolons we are losing a ton of damage unless this is buffed to like 120%. For the people who were using it outside of places they know have good lighting, it's still primarily focusing on the damage buff which did fluctuate a lot but lighting in this game is very wild. You would go from DR to damage by walking down a lit hallway. If you want to average the damage buff around 0% when you don't have it and 150% when you have the max, then maybe it does average to 30% but that's not being honest since we aren't putting any weight whatsoever to where people are choosing to be when they use the subsume. If you also weight it by playtime with the subsume on the build then we should be weighing it near 120% since there are a lot of people using it for eidolons and PT and archon hunts constantly which are all very well lit. Either way in the end this still comes down to the issue of if this subsume is even worth using in its proposed state and that has been graphed for us showing us that roar is always better on most weapons or at worst literally equal to it. So we can easily definitively say 30% is wildly WAY too low to even consider.

It's also worth remembering that even if we do average the light levels of where people are at in missions, most people who are subsuming eclipse onto a frame were doing so with a specific place in mind too. Both fortuna and plains of eidolons gave a huge % light level meaning we were getting around 130-140 of that 150% subsume just about everywhere we stood. It was simply just a really really strong buff and thats what we wanted. Even with how strong it was in those scenarios there were still other subsumes that competed like in archon hunts where xatas whisper with phenmor is still popular or just simply roar to give allies more damage. If it was competitive with other subsumes at 100+% then that just won't be true if it's 30%

Any change like that just means you are making a worse roar. This makes absolutely no sense to heavily nerf an ability just to turn it into a slightly altered version of another. Even if they did function similarly, people would still choose roar due to the longer duration and better multiplier due to it being faction damage and thus double dipping on multiple different things AND working on abilities. Eclipse's entire purpose was an alternative to roar as a selfish but stronger weapons buff that required an augment just to not even be as easy to use as roar.

Ok so you literally just want player power to be nerfed at all costs. You are not making serious recommendations. If you want fundamental changes then you have to start with enemies and how armor scales before touching warframes since builds are entirely just a result of how these systems work

Just because they don't want to shield gate or because they just really wanna health tank doesn't mean that they WILL use eclipse at all, or that they PREFER to use the DR form of the ability. You can bring up people who don't want to follow popular methods of survival but those same people are also not going to use this same exact subsume or even care for the DR from the ability either. The vast majority of players are using eclipse for the damage buff even when they are looking to health tank because everyone knows that killing enemies is better than trying to tank their attacks. If they want to stance dance then that's great, that sounds badass, but guess what? We already have something that's balancing around this mechanic and that's called energy costs and animation times. If they want to stance dance then they now have to generate enough energy to afford being able to do this and they need to be able to work around those cast times that are a full body animation so you can't even shoot while using it.

Ok so now those frames who have armor strip can continue to run eclipse to 1 shot. The builds that used eclipse instead of an armor strip are now jumping ship back to armor strip so they can continue to 1 shot. You see how these changes don't help with gear viability but instead hurt it? You railroad us into 1 option because of this nerf. True damage is only really accessible from slash procs which means only slash weighted weapons or primaries with HM or melees with really good stances can let you choose to not use an armor strip. Guess what subsume they used for these weapons? Roar cuz of it's double dip mechanic. So now what if im playing a frame who has a good armor strip so I wanted to kill with raw damage? Well guess what now we are using roar again cuz it's the same 30% but has a longer duration. Heat inherit is a very difficult mechanic to utilize and is not something that most people want to be trying to build around unless they specifically want to be challenging themselves. The other multipliers you mention are all things that are already used or are so niche that you have to go out of your way for.

Because once standard health + armor isn't enough to prevent you from being 1 shot, an extra source of 90% Dr gets out scaled in 2 rounds or less of further scaling. Either way the best way to reduce damage received is still just simply by avoiding it or by shield gating it so the DR is still not worth discussing.

Because faction damage is squared for DoT effects and roar also buffs abilities. If the build uses slash procs, heat procs, toxin procs, electric procs, or abilities at all then roar will be a stronger multiplier even if you already have a primed bane mod slotted on the weapons. Faction damage is just that good. And like you said, stacking multipliers does kinda supercede everything but that's mainly because the multipliers we get are in huge quantities. Faction damage isn't offered in such large amounts while also being effectively 2 multipliers thus twice the value.

The challenging content in the game RN is open world bosses where eclipse is the meta subsume and we get like 90+% of the listed value

How would you not notice a difference in damage? We are talking about either a 1/5th to 1/3rd nerf in a total damage multiplier. That directly means our damage is getting nerfed by equally that much. Right now we are so strong as players that by nerfing our access to tools, you are only railroading us into a smaller selection of weapons that are able to perform at the same level, thus hurting build diversity. If you remove damage buffing abilities from helminth entirely then congrats you are now left with xaku using felarx for simply level cappingand you have killed buff stacking as a playstyle entirely. That is not a helpful change whatsoever and is completely blind to your previous claim that we can still 1 shot level cap despite the eclipse nerf. Not many weapons can, but #*!% weapon damage amirite?

Even on a health tanking setup, null star is a better source of DR and even then, why not use gloom for a way to Regen health and keep enemies from hitting you? The fact that it's easier to avoid getting hit than it is to simply survive damage is one of the most important things to remember when balancing numbers in this game. As soon as you hit SP levels, any amount of DR less than 100% becomes useless in 10 minutes. Those players may use health tanking and want to rely on DR, but because of how this game functions, the simple fact that you can get DR should not be a reason to significantly reduce the damage bonus. Maybe what should be changed is the inability to have both the damage buff and the Dr at the same time, and make the most recently cast version just remove the old one. That way we can balance them around the different buffs in isolation and not use both, because we never had access to both before either

While the paper values are nerfed this hard, it's also worth mentioning that in almost no areas were we getting even 130% from eclipse in normal missions. So it's fair to nerf it if the value is being untied from lighting. In that same vein, people were still subsuming eclipse knowing that this damage buff is still a valuable one and stronger than roar for their specific setups. Almost nobody is taking this subsume for the DR it provides and in a lot of cases this DR is useless even if we could have both at once due to how high the enemy damage is. Having eclipse at 100% is about where we were before this whole discussion for average damage in most missions, and 75% damage is a reasonable nerf imo.

While I agree that eclipse would require a nerf if it stops scaling with external factors, 30% is too much of a nerf. If we compare directly with roar, then eclipse will ALWAYS be worse than roar unless you specifically want to damage crates and inanimate objects. Roar is faction damage so for most weapons, it is both an equal damage boost and also applies again to DoT effects. This is also before mentioning that roar is an AoE buff for allies that lingers on anyone in range on cast. Eclipse requires an augment mod to buff allies and also only buffs these allies while they remain nearby. It's multiplier is also not double dipping on these DoT effects so there's literally no reason to be using it. The only way this eclipse gets subsumed is if you are expecting to get roar from another ally. I would like to suggest something between 50-100%, maybe 75% total which would be exactly half the original maximum buff of 150%