Raidose
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Posts posted by Raidose
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· Atlas’s Landslide and Rhino’s Charge now have a 0.8x energy multiplier per successive hit.
· Valkyr’s Ripline now has a 0.5x energy multiplier per successive hit.
I'm sorry, but..... what? Is this actually penalizing players for being efficient? Also, this update removes the utility options of SEVERAL warframes against bosses. Seriously, what the heck? What is the point of picking a warframe if you guys want them to affect our play style less and less? I'm especially upset at the Loki thing. Loki's disarm SHOULD affect bosses in some way. It's his only real utility skill. What good is Disarm if it doesn't DISARM? Hell, several already ignore his Invisibility. Why was this a thing?! And his swap-teleport no longer seems to reliably stun enemies, or even reliably SWAP with things! I can't tell you how many times I accidentally teleported a Grineer Napalm from about 30m away directly onto my face, only for them to stomp me into the ground like a nail. Literally.
Also, upping the over-all graphics, while kinda nice, was not really necessary. Game already looked pretty good as is. Really hoping this doesn't affect the performance for me or my friends. Plus, wasn't there more pressing issues? Like, maybe finally re-balancing all the old Prime frames to have upgraded stats like all the newer ones? Or maybe adding some scaling to Ember and Mesa? New weapons and frames, shinier shiny things, some new tile-sets, it's all nice. But isn't this becoming a bit of a Bread-and-Games type deal? Can we please fix some things that the community has been griping about for the longest time? Don't take this for hate. It's not. The hard work you guys do is amazing. You crank out updates faster than nearly any other game I play, and usually with more in them. But I can't help but feel that hard work's going in the wrong direction. -
In the end, my base argument is that Loki needs something. I just gave possible ideas. So far none of those suggested have been bad and I'd love to have any of them. And yes, if Switch would dump my aggro onto some other poor schmuck, then being knocked down the minute I turned Invis would not be so damn annoying.
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There's a fine line between creative use, and abusing a fault in the AI. In those moments where your in a rather bland room with no real terrain values, it would sure be nice to know your decoy could stand on it's own for three freaking seconds for you to do something.
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Is it weird that I liked the Gorgon more so than the Soma? The higher base damage scaled better with Serration. And a single, not even fully upgraded Fire rate mod solved any issue with the wind-up.
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I remain that Decoy should not be dependant on abuse.
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We're not always fighting Grineer, and even when we do, that doesn't mean there's always some abusable terrain nearby. Loki shouldn't have to rely on the power of METAL BAWKSES.
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You can't take cover from Napalm, heavy knock downs, Railer moas etc.
You mind telling that to the ones who keep saying "Decoy is fine, just put it behind boxes"?
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Invis shouldn't be Loki's only good move. Back when Mag was considered to be a one-trick pony, they buffed her. Why should Loki be different? His Decoy has no reason not to be buffed in some way. His Switch-Teleport feels to much like a chess move in a game of rugby, and should offer something else other than a possible lucky save. Troll-factor be damned. Radial Disarm simply makes melee units out of ranged ones, which happen to be melee units who are still fairly deadly. I don't know about you all, but I can take cover from bullets.
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^ I'm in total agreeance with chimp. My only issue with Invis was that Melee seems downplayed in his game compared to many of the guns. This game is starting to play too much like Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer when it should feel more like Tenchu; or at least Ninja Gaiden.
Another thing that I just noticed is that the Devs have removed the option to have your character swing where he's facing as opposed to where the camera is aimed. This, I feel, has really hurt melee a lot. I'm starting to get worried about the many appearing option for "controllers" instead of keyboard and mouse settings. I fear we PC players may be getting shafted to make Warframe more cozy for the PS4 crowd. -
It's the same on mouse, dude. I despise it. I can't kill crowds anywhere as well as I use to.
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You can cast Invis while airborne. Use that to preserve momentum and hence avoid enemy fire.
And what do you do when it runs out in the middle of a crowd? Also, Swap Teleport is not an escape card, considering it requires an enemy to do so. Since most ranged enemies group up, you're just landing in another crowd. A friend of mine actually had a good idea; What if Swap Teleport had an AOE confusion where you jump to?
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Because once it reaches a certain level, even enemies with stun batons can potentially 1 to 2 shot you if you mistimed invisibility. Also Invisibility is still vulnerable to CC as well so I rather keep them at arms length if I could.
^ This. This is my issue with Radial Disarm in difficult levels. It will not save your team when they need saving the most. It will not save you when you need saving the most. Those high lvl Corpus and Grineer will still fight and kill you with their little shock-sticks. Same goes for your team. And all those who say "he's nearly invincible".... I really don't know what missions you play, but AOEs still hit you. And I do not care how good you are, at some point your Invis is going to timeout when you really don't want it to, and the second you hit the button will be too late to save you. Invis does not make you unkillable. Far from it. I've found myself having to put considerable distance between myself and teammates because of their constant setting off AOE enemies. Also, if you still think your unkillable, try being surrounded by Toxic Ancients. Loki is far from untouchable, and as the one frame that should have a "get-out-of-jail-free" card somewhere in his loadout, he really doesn't.
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While I admit I haven't tried the Ichors, if those are the only weapons Loki is good with, then there's an issue. Even with a suped-up Orthos, Fang, Dual Ether Blades, Reaper, Scindo, or Fragor the T3 enemies are still an issue. I always use invis before swapping, making this maneuver cost 75 energy. Know what happens? The enemies finish the attacks meant for my teammate which I just saved, hitting me. Invis doesn't protect you from the enemy "accidentally" hitting you. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but even with the decoy behind a box, any enemy that is either melee (will go around/onto the box) or has some kinda AOE (Napalm Grineer) will still wipe the decoy. We all know what Radial Disarm does, so stating it's effects is not really helpful. Yes, corpus and Grineer are slightly easier to deal with when you take away their pew-pew guns, but they are even easier to deal with if stasised with a Rhino stomp or Vauban's Stasis grenades, or are weakened by Nova's Molecular Prime. Calling people an idiot doesn't make you seem smart or credible, it just makes you look like a jerk.
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Deejay, name one way he's useful in Tier 3. Decoy gets 1-shot, swap teleport might save your friend but sacrifices yourself, invisibility is alright but melee right now is a distant second fiddle to any decently modded gun (Unpotatoed Braton is more efficient than a forma'd, potato'd Ether Reaper. Also, headshot damage) so if melee got better than I could live with this, and Radial Disarm not only doesn't affect any melee enemies at all, the enemies only become slightly less of a threat. 100 energy for slightly less of a threat? Not very efficient. If they made this move only 75, I'd shut up. If they gave it some other effect, I'd shut up. If they made it useful against infested, melee enemies, and/or bosses, I'd shut up. But they didn't. In fact, they made it worse. Now Osprey are unaffected at all. Are you really going to tell me that was a step in the right direction?
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Hack, no one else needs to disarm the enemy. Logically, the orders goes, from most useful to least: Dead enemies, stunned enemies, distracted enemies, majorly weakened enemies, slightly weakened enemies. Radial Disarm gets rid of guns, but it doesn't protect you from the melee mob, which still does pretty good damage. Snow Globe at least slows melee users. So, yes, Loki is the only one who disarms, I'm not saying others can do that. What I am saying is that others don't really need to. You want a "unique snowflake"? Fine, show me another Frame that focuses on debuffs. I fail to see how this would change how Loki is played at all. I've even asked random people in matches what they think, and about 7/10 (trolls and @$$holes not included) agreed with me that a debuff wouldn't hurt at all. Generally, the ones that said Loki was fine were not playing Loki.....
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HackShield, while your suggestion for how to use Radial Disarm works, that's 175 energy you just spent to do something you could have done with Nyx's Chaos. The Debuff would make it much more team friendly, as that melee clump you just made still has the same health it use to. Also, no one has really said anything about Loki's usefulness against bosses.
I actually wouldn't mind multi-decoy, or infact many of the suggested changes. The thing is, none of these changes will ever happen so long as people keep swearing Loki is completely fine. Swap Teleport could be used to save a friend, but isn't Mag's Pull better? You save the teammate yourself, and you don't land in the middle of a freaking clump. The enemy-friendly-fire thing is nice. Though I think it should force the aggro of every enemy that was already aiming at Loki onto the target for the short duration of the confusion as well as protect Loki from targeting until either the effect wears off or he starts swinging. That would make this sooo much more useful, swapping that damn Napalm out of the cluster, letting him get shot up while you slip in amongst the crowd, completely free to kill the ever-loving crap out of the enemy without their big guardian stomping on you.
Also, I would be fine with just "no knockdown" for 1 or 2 seconds when casting invis. I'm just tired of having to wait till I freaking get back up to start swinging.
Still no one's mentioned my idea for the overall melee fix..... -
I love how people keep going on about the damage even though I said I would give up those ideas freely for some debuffs instead.
Chimp, I see where your coming from, but the issues remain. Decoy does not offer any "few precious seconds". I have seen this thing get wiped by a Napalm's fireball that hit 5 feet away from it. Even if the detonation didn't inflict damage at all, a stun, stagger, shield or armor strip would make this much more tactical. Loki is suppose to be mischief-incarnate. As it stands, he really isn't.
Once again, the 1 second invulnerability thing when popping Invisibility is simply to stop being knocked down every single time your not 50ft away from the fight. I'm almost convinced activating it aggros you. I've been charged by shielded A-holes from several yards away, who will track you through your invis. The same goes with Scorpions and their damn spears to the genitals. And I'm sorry, but if you think your invincible, you've never once fought anything with a big shockwave move. Or maybe you've had the good fortune to not have a teammate come in while your hacking them down and set them all off. That has wiped me sooooo many times. I have enough to watch out for, I shouldn't have to abandon my fight because another player wants a slice of my pie.
The decoy + swap trick in nice, for costing 50 energy and taking way longer than any emergency escape plan needs. I'm sorry, but I don't think many people are such brilliant tacticians that they never get caught off guard. That's Loki's biggest shortcoming when it should be his strength. A true trickster should be able to troll the enemy and get out of most tight spots rather easily. Also, this stunt takes very precious seconds for the decoy to spawn, and then you have to pray to God that you didn't cast it too far away. If they buffed Swap Teleport's range and did the friendly fire/aggro the enemy thing, then I'd be fine with this move. It'd be nice to just spam it and have the enemies wiping themselves out. That would feel very trickster-ish. But it doesn't, and as long as people keep swearing it's fine, it never will.
And finally, once again at Radial Disarm. I will repeat myself once more: I will drop all mention of inflicting damage of any kind if this thing would just offer a nice debuff on top of the disarm. Let me ask you this, what does Loki do against Bosses to help his team? Decoy? Nope, gets wiped too fast. Swap teleport? Maybe if you meta game and drop the boss off a cliff, and deny everyone loot. Invisibility? Doesn't help the team at all. In fact a friend of mine brought up an excellent point, calling it rather selfish as it only saves yourself and leaves everyone else high and dry. Now, I get Loki is squishy, but I shouldn't have to resort to this kinda thing alone. Better to have actual distractions with a decent amount of duration. Also, what's stopping the Boss from AOEing the utter crap out of you? Unless you solo only, your team will be your death sooo many times. So what's left? Radial Disarm doesn't work on bosses. That's why I'm suggesting the debuff. That way Loki does something to help, and it makes it effective against everything. No more feeling like you wasted a mod slot in infested runs.
I'm going to ask an honest to God question here, to all those who say Loki serves perfectly fine as a support class as he is. How? How does he help better than some other Frame? Is Decoy better than an Iron Skin Rhino who can fight back and move? Does it save your @$$ better than Saryn's Shed, which combines two of your moves in one? Is swapping an ally out better than healing them with Well of Life or Polarize Shield? Is it better than simply wiping the whole group of enemies, or putting them in Stasis? Will Invisibility ever really help your team beyond a risky revive? Will it hurt them more than help, seeing as your dumping all your aggro on to them? Will taking away ranged weapons with Radial Disarm be better than making them pointless with Snow Globe, which also helps against melee attackers? Will it save your team better than Shadow of the Dead taking all their aggro?
I'm not trying to be a $&*^, I'm being serious here. Practically every Frame has one or several moves that aid their team more than Loki's whole arsenal. The only thing Loki has that others can't touch is his speed, and who the hell actually enjoys rushing levels? I know I don't. As far as Invisibility for melee damage goes, a lot of you have explicitly said Loki isn't meant for that as much as Ash (even though a lot of you have used melee DPS to defend this same power), so then where does that leave Loki? He can't support on a large scale against many opponents as well as other frames, and "isn't meant for melee dps while Invis". Oh, and for those of you that say Nukes lose effectiveness, might I remind you that Nova's Primed State increases how much damage an enemy takes, which actually does scale well. Also, it doesn't matter if Rhino can't Nuke forever. And two frames with Nuke moves could just both do it. Especially high energy frames. Sure, it takes two, or maybe even three, but the difference is the enemy is dead. The disarmed guys aren't really affected by Loki's Disarm anymore, so all Crowd Control goes out the window right there.
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One quick edit here. Keep in mind that practically every Frame in the game is suited to wiping out the enemy and being in combat. The fact that Loki isn't is unique, sure, but it's not very helpful. His powers shouldn't be used to kill the enemy, I agree with that fully, but what they should do is make the squishy Loki frame much more safe to do so himself. Either by covering his team's @$$ with a decoy that has some survivability or disrupting factor, his own @$$ with an invis which doesn't require planning five steps in advance of a fight that's constantly changing, while still having means to help get both him and his teammates out of the fire if the heat starts looking really bad. -
^ Ancients, too. Also, Napalm Grineer 1-shot decoys even behind the ever mighty METAL BAWKSES.
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I do agree that Loki is not about damage, hence why I have that listed as a footnote, a minor thing that maybe could weed out some weaklings. The main thing I wanted to focus on was debuffing, increased survivability dependent on powers, and better CC as well as support.
Also, the decoy behind cover trick is nice and all, but what if you want to distract some melee opponents? Say, Ancients? Or maybe that huge-@$$ melee mob of Grineer you just made? Even with their cattle prods, five Grineer Heavies tend to hurt. A lot. -
*Looks around* I was gone for like.... 35 minutes, and all this sprang up. Anyway, I did see a few ideas here, and I do like the one about the decoy being an actual hologram with no hitbox. While I still think my armor-stripping debuff explosion gave Loki some more utility, I also liked the shock-stun someone else suggested. Though I think it's been said enough that Decoy is absolutely not fine, as pointed out by TwiceDead. Unless you like wasting 25 energy on a distraction that lasts 0.4 seconds on T3 Defence. And if that's the case..... idk what to say, really.
The Invincibility thing was more to stop the ever annoying "homing shield charge" and Grineer Scorpions constantly harpooning you in the crotch the moment you become Invisible. I'd be fine if it were reduced to 1 second, so long as I'm not constantly wasting the first five seconds of the ability getting up off the ground.
The idea from SortaRandom about the swap teleport would actually make this move much more practical, though I still think it'd be sort of downplayed by Loki's playstyle. Loki is the Warframe that doesn't want to be targeted. A possible fix might be a very short aggro buff on the enemy you swap with. The swapping with an exploding barrel seems a bit impractical. Your being shot at, you don't have much time to find an object that is likely out of sight and takes some searching to find. Also, there's the fact that some people seem to have taken a liking to the idea of actually teleporting where you want. Truth be told, I always found it much more practical to drop a decoy in sight of the clump puppy-guarding my teammate while I creep over there in Invis. Same cost, seeing as swapping into a crowd of enemies without Invisibility is sorta like suicide. That, and your leaving the downed player's fate up to other likely random players, who may not give two craps or even notice.
And as far as the Radial Disarm, I could give up both the stagger and exploding guns for the Debuff. 50% Damage from all sources would at least make Loki a lot more welcomed in higher difficulties. I mean really, usually one of the first things I get asked when being recruited is "what other Frames do you have?" This has happened since as long as I've been able to do Tier 3, and has not gone away with any of the recent patches.
Lastly, no one has brought up my quick-fix for underpowered melee. Is that a good thing? Bad? I don't see how it could be bad. Guns would stay just as shooty as they are now, still capable of wiping out whole crowds just like they do, but those of us who prefer swords and giant hammers could know that we are not obsolete. -
Alright, here's hoping for good responses.....
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Alright, I know I'm encroaching on some really, really, really touchy ground here, but as a primary Loki player I believe this needs to be said. Loki does taper off near high level areas. It's becoming almost a trick to be recruited for T3 missions whenever I mention Loki, and even his ultimate does kinda get outdone Vauban with stasis. No point in disarming the enemy if they're locked in place and/or killed instantly. Invisible Melee builds fall short to a Rhino with a uber-modded Ignis. Swap teleport is generally challenging to find a use for at all, let alone a good one. You're no closer to your target, you've placed an enemy by your team mates and you right next to a clump of them. And of course, Decoy gets 1-shot at high levels, making it a huge waste of 25 energy. While I will not say he is useless, he is definitely being outclassed by many other frames. Every Frame has had it's major tweak at some point, some more than once, so I think it's time for Loki. I came up with a list in another thread for possible changes, and was suggested to make a thread explicitly about it. So, here goes.
Decoy: Everyone agrees this scales horribly. Boosted health is a must, but I had another idea to make Loki more of a trickster. What if the Decoy exploded on death? That's a hell of a lot more worthy of a God of Mischief. It doesn't even have to be a lot, maybe just enough to 1-shot the lowly canon fodder and knockback, with maybe a debuff on top. My top vote: no armor for 15 seconds. Throw this at a boss, let it get stomped, then unload. Good times.
Swap Teleport: As I said, this is so situational it's not really helpful. Yes, you can save your ally, but even if you pop Invis before diving into the fray, I've ended up insta-gibbed the moment I swapped by the enemy simply finishing the attacks meant for my ally. The only use I ever see for this is when you're with friends, and that's singling out one target. Still not very helpful. Those of you who disagree with me are free to say why, but I'd much rather have another "Oh Snap!" button than something that makes me feel like a Chess player in a game of Rugby.
Elusive Leap: This is my alternative. I've noticed that the aiming for setting up a decoy seems actually pretty good (at least for me). So, why not have a move that works almost the same, except reversed? Instead of setting up a decoy where you aim, why not warp to where you aim and drop an exploding decoy in your place? Loki instantly gets both maneuverability and survivability in one cost-effective move. I would personally recommend having Loki be invincible while this is being cast, because what good is a panic move if you die while casting it? You don't need an escape until you're already in trouble. Also, I would very much like for this to be an independent decoy from... well, Decoy. Setting up two of these things would increase Loki's support and CC. Look deep into your hearts, fellow Loki players, and tell me you wouldn't enjoy leaping around the map, being as much of a pain-in-the-@$$ as possible to the enemies. Or, maybe when you realize all-too-late that the Ancient you just ran up to is actually more Green than Yellow as you first thought. Also, tied up with Fireblades while being shot by a Sniper? Not anymore, sweetheart!
Invisibility: Not much is needed to fix this as far as the move. My only problem with it is being Scorpion'd or Shield-Bashed the moment I activate it. Highly annoying. If I could tweak anything, it'd be a small window of invincibility upon activation, no more than 2 seconds. That's it. If someone would like to tell me how 2 seconds of no-damage is OP, I'd love to hear it. This also lessens some of Loki's squishiness so long as he has the energy to spam, and does make us Melee DPS fans a bit more comfy in the thick of things.
The only thing that would really make this better is if they fixed the issue with Melee being extremely obsolete to the ridiculous DPS of guns. I actually came here to suggest something for that, but here I am! So might as well see how the reaction is. Why not double or triple melee weapon's damage? Hear me out a second, guns have soooo much range and DPS, so why not make swords a contender again? We are ninjas, right? So why not try to counter a guns insane damage-per-second with insane damage-per-hit. I mean, Serration gives 165% damage to full-auto machine guns, or throwing knives that already hit as hard as Orthos. So, there's my easy quick-fix to melee. Reply to that as you will.
Radial Disarm: Okay, this move is a very nice concept, when you don't consider the moves of others. Despite some snarky responses, I don't believe the solution is another "kill everything in sight" move. Stick with what it was, but make something that shines in T3 missions better than Rhino and Mag spamming their moves. 1, instead of "disabling" their guns, why not make them explode in their hands? A small scale aeo blast that knocks back and maybe, in tight groups, might be enough to weed out the week guys, while the knockback gives you a few seconds to do.... something. Either run like hell or charge up a good opening swing. But this doesn't help against things like Bosses or Infected, does it? So, why not give it a Debuff? Say.... 50% more damage taken from all sources? Combine this with a armor-stripping decoy, and Loki now becomes a handy tool against both infected clumps and bosses.My ultimate goal here is to both preserve what Loki is already good for, improve on it, and open up some new options. Whether you like to melee DPS, support, CC, or Debuffer (not sure how many frames can honestly claim to cover that role), Loki can be these. He also becomes more of the trickster he was advertised to be, as well as the Survivor. The player who managed to escape the team-wipe, only to come back and rev everyone, saving the game. I really to want to here suggestions or comments, but please don't reply if you have nothing but some smart-@$$ comment like "You don't know how to play Loki". I've been playing for 2 months now on him alone. I think I get the gist of it.
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The smart alec thing was directed at AbsolutionZero. I do apologize for not being clear about that, Delgear. Though, could you quote where you said exploding clones? I may have missed that, but I could swear that it wasn't mentioned.
@RocketRider: I might just do that, though I am worried about being reported for spam. Not sure how things are on this forum, but been on a few where Forum Nazis would report you for quoting yourself from any other thread as the main topic. -
Delgear, no offense, but your suggestions involved moving clones that fight and a change to practically all his powers, as well as making him a "tank".
Loki :: Good god this suit is garbage even for a starting suit it has one ability that even keeps it in the relative ballpark in damage and its still way down at the bottom of the ballpark, loki needs a rework something fierce i have several ideas for it but at this point i sold it to make more room for warframes that do something they are as follows ::
Allow the loki to make Phantasms of itself that attack and do melee damage (low damage like saryn 1) and gather threat on one target for its 1, let its 2 be a ranged minion that does the same both perhaps targeting whatever the loki has targetted when conjured, make them move and use cover and avoid people within a given range (use dodgeroll jump on things ect.) make 3 still swap teleport so the loki can switch with a clone but don't give it a cast animation, and the ultimate should summon 2 more minions and enrage all minions making them do more damage and if they are killed they detonate. this option would put the loki in the midrange dps caster role.
Another option is to completely forgo the damage role on the loki and make it a "Tank frame" however it would implement a completely new style tank class by using illusions to tank the enemies instead of the loki itself using the same 1 and 2 from above and swap teleport a simple change to the ult and the effect of each clone can completelty change the end result make the ult still conjure 2 more taunting clones but it heals all the illusary clones and makes them all taunt everything in the area for a few seconds before reverting to thier innitial AI of taunt and kite or in the melees case taunt and chase.
I'm not saying mine are better than yours, but I am saying that they involve far less drastic changes. I only replaced one move, the others I simply added to. Unless someone would like to explain otherwise, I don't see how my suggestions would hinder Loki at all. Every Warframe has had a major tweak at some point, as I've already said. Why can't Loki? I will not object criticism, so long as there is more said than some smart alec reply.
Update 18.5: Sands of Inaros
in PC Update Notes
Posted
Yes. This.