Stravix
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Posts posted by Stravix
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You do not know what "exponentially" means. And considering there is a hard cap on it, doubly so are you wrong. And considering that, unlike any other stat, Efficiency starts off at 0%, even more so.
I guess you don't understand that range grows at an incredibly high rate, based on the range increase-to-surface-area ratio?
First, the hard cap is a band aid to fix the possibilities of things like lokis with 105% PE possibly GAINING energy on cast. The hard cap should be self evident that there is something wrong with the way in which PE is calculated. Yes, range also can be considered exponential growth for some abilities and I feel that should eventually be addressed as well, but since not all abilities that use range are AOE, range would need to be evaluated on a power by power basis and as such a quick fix, like the one I am suggesting, would not be possible. And last I say that your reasoning that PE is the only stat that starts off at 0% is a tad bit misleading, as bonus damage or duration starts off at 0% if you consider it as BONUS damage/duration.
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Building any pure stat has innate drawbacks overextend kills power strength and so on, but power efficiency does, in fact scale exponentially, as the number of cast per set amount of energy (the definition of energy efficiency) does increase at an increasing rate. Everything has drawbacks but atm duration is the easiest mod to recover both have the highest achievable amount and the most mods available to do so. If i am using exponentially incorrectly, please detail how. But unless you have more comments about my argumentative skills i would still ask you to remain on the topic of the scaling of PE and how to fix it. Thank you
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power efficiency: one of the most useful mods we have, the only time it deals more damage/has more effect than a pure power strength build is when you have so much efficiency that ults cost as much as unmodded 1s., i'd rather not have the only mod that scales properly regardless of the enemy type we go against get nerfed, if anything power strength would need a higher cap or have more affect to keep the "more damage per cast" as viable as cheap ults.
The problem of note is that power efficiency does not scale properly. I am not directly asking for a nerf to PE or saying that Fleeting is OP in and of itself, what I am saying is that PE scales much more steeply, by the numbers, than any other stat in the game and I feel that it is an issue which must be addressed, that is all. I am NOT in favor of removing it as others have said and would simply like a system in place that is universal among all stats in the game, warframe is close to that right now as everything scales linearly save for PE, if everything scaled exponentially I would be fine with PE scaling as such but seeing as it is the only stat in the game that does so i feel like there should be a change made. There currently is no hard cap on power strength such as the one on PE power strength will go as far as the numbers allow without a cap prior to that. What if they were to add a power efficiency perk onto the focus system, with the hard cap in place it would either simply replace a mod or be overlooked as it could already be at cap instead of furthering true power efficiency, thus restricting possibilities before they even can come out. Not a single person can deny how PE scales exponentially as opposed to every other stat and yet numerous people claim that they either a) need it for higher content or b) it is an unneeded stat as gear makes up for it, but very few people have commented on the topic of the thread which is how PE scales in a manner that is different from every other stat in the game and should be brought within the universal norm. Please keep the thread on that topic.
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common sense if you are getting PE you need at least one ability, stop nitpicking
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I don't know if you read what you typed, but it is not a compelling argument in any way. It is still four mods to get maxed efficiency without negative impact on stats. You basically dance around the point but come right back to "you have 4 mod slots left for abilities". Which is basically, yes, you use all your mod slots for efficiency, but reworded in a way that makes it seem like it's totally nothing.
Also, "mute point".
Except for the fact that it is pretty much nothing given up, 3 fluff mods are more than enough in any build, with 5 fluff spots there for anyone not using duration. But as I have stated numerous times that you continue to ignore, the point is not that FE is OP, but that the calculations for Power efficiency are out of line of the way every other stat in the game is handled and should be changed to reflect every other stat. plain and simple.
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Wow I just cannot let this one slide, it's such a bad argument.
"Countered by duration mods" means "Consumes two additional mod slots to bring it back up to normal duration" or "Reduce range significantly, and consumes another mod slot". And the constant "perma invis" responses you give are based on a wholly flawed premise. You seem to assume that 60% efficiency and -60% duration means you can just cast 2.5 times more, and it all equals out, right? Except for abilities that can't be overlapped. And have a cast time.
You're really lacking a compelling reason that Efficiency is as "bad" as you keep trying to convince everyone it is. Here, let's try it out. Name one frame that can take full advantage of ability spam at higher levels and has no reliance on duration for anything else at that same higher level.
And no; "Countered by duration mods" is not a valid argument. If it takes four mods to get full efficiency without affecting duration... yeah. Good luck with that.
without the use of narrow minded you are looking at comparing +57% duration and - 30% cost to +7% duration with -75% cost, most frames do not have cast times so significant that they are a major problem, and with the timers on the abilities it becomes a mute point tbh. I am also not saying the PE or FE is bad, simply the equation that determines what it does. at the moment the exponential scaling on it is unique and causes a significant amount of build stifling. and the argument for having 4 mods effect your powers is kinda silly, we have 10 mod slots, generally 2 are reserved for redirection and vitality, 2 for streamline and FE and on duration builds 2 for continuity and constitution. This leaves 4 mod slots for your ability(s) and fluff.
"Spam more" might looks great on paper but there are many outside factors as well that are no where near constant. Teammate can easily remove the need for a maxed efficiency. A well prepared team might not even bother with streamline and just drop gear so they have one more slot to use for something else. Only some frames really require it like Desecrate bot, Permastagger build Banshee or Absorb abusing Nyx.
Don't just tunnel vision the whole thing in order to remove the 75% efficiency build. Any nerf to one of those mods is a nerf to every other build not abusing maxed efficiency.
what mod would you pick up to fill that slot that is not easily able to go into the build anyway, give a full build that will not use PE at its arbitrary cap that could not easily be improved by doing so (no trinity or mag as those have been discussed) Using gear to try to make up for 1.5x energy costs have to be countered by something extremely worthwhile. So what is it?
Burt I do digress. This tread is not to be made in rage as to how "PE breaks the game," but simply in noting how the scaling mechanism for PE is inherently flawed giving it undue strength and can no longer support further growth due to a arbitrary and needed cap.
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Not really though. The thing is, these power are already somewhat in line.
Nekros : I play with only FE with 60% PE and I can still spam desecrate just fine while also use my Terrify and SotD. I don't need the 75% build since I also abuse rage + life strike and equilibrium. desecrate = energy orb everywhere.
Loki : He wouldn't want much PE. Radial disarm is permanent. Reduction in Duration will gut the Invisibility duration.
Nova : M prime needs duration for it to go far. With the spell not really being spammable, I actually see some people use only Streamline then get some duration mod so the Mprime will affect almost the whole map instead. Even those abusing the negative power build to speed up the infected won't really get FE for again, the sake of its range.
TBH, anyone in general that abuse Rage combo wouldn't really bother with 75% energy if they choose to. Instead, they will just go with FE if they don't suffer from the duration reduction and add in the range followed by power.
The only stat that can somewhat be considered to be weaker than all the other stat atm when not used on a frame with personal or team buffs, is probably the power stat because the scaling in the damage game is meh and all moves are used for their CC instead where the power mod will rarely affect it.
Loki: Max PE at the cost of some duration is easily countered by duration mods, leading to perma invis, a more spammy RD is a better RD because it would allow you to disarm more people.
Nova: Max PE at the cost of duration will only sightly hurt her overall range, a -50% amoung +157% is less than a quarter less overall range loss to make the ability used 3 times as often, plus that kind of silly range isn't needed on ANY map.
Nekros: By ignoring that last 15 PE you effectively multiply all of your energy costs by over 1.5x and use the excuse of rage to say that you don't need it. Any time you have to force taking health damage to keep your energy pool up, regardless as to wether you are a healing frame or not is incredably risky at higher tiers.
The main problem with PE as I decribed in my original post was that it was the only stat in the game which scaled exponetially as opposed to linearly, thus making the last few percent of PE the most powerful and as such make it too good to pass up.
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I absolutely DISAGREE.
Given the fact that we have energy leeching enemies, magnetic guys that completely take you back to 0. Power Efficiency is a survival necessity.
You aren't ALWAYS going to have energy drops. You aren't ALWAYS going to have Flow. No matter how much you store, you will run short because enemies can take it all away. Imagine getting disrupted late game with 40+ minutes on the survival clock, NO energy left and you know you can do only one thing. Pray for one energy drop from the next enemy you kill so you can skill and get the crowd back under your control. Without power efficiency, getting your energy taken means you are, in the words of Vor, 'Another dead Tenno'
So the only way that PE should change, is if enemies cannot EVER take energy away from you, only then would it make sense to change the mechanics.
Clearly you have had zero experience playing ANY late game content. I don't know how many times the entire team has relied upon multiple-casts of my Radial Disarm, followed by Invisibility just to get them through a section. Or when I'm a Nekros and I have to take damage just to resupply my energy for desecrates to resupply my team, because my Shadows need to be kept up so everyone can have a little more space to breathe and recover.
So what if Streamline/FE is a mandatory combo. You do realise you don't have to make it mandatory at all? You don't have to hit the 75% cap?
I have made plenty of builds that drop my efficiency for even more power (Valkyr, Mag, Ember, just to name a few). Every tool that we have in the game is useful at present and it is about how you use the mechanics that decides whether or not hitting the 75% cap is mandatory.
But know this, even if you take PE away, or alter it, or do something to it. Players will find a nice way to abuse it again. That's what we do. We create builds, we work with them and we alter our play-style. That is how a real end-game player or shall I use the word, pro, plays. Enjoy the game, don't sweat the small stuff, don't suggest changes to mechanics, report all detrimental bugs and wait for official instructions.
First and foremost, do not insult a player for proposing a mechanic change on a game that is in beta. This is our job, to look at the game and try to find ways to improve/balance it in ways that DE may have overlooked. Secondly, every warframe ( save for trinitiy, and mag) benifit more from having PE maxed than any alternative. My point is to simply bring PE back in line with all of the other warframe stats that are out there ( duration, strength and range). Doing so would still let players keep bering spammy if they wish, while not punisihing those who choose not to build that. This would also allow DE to further pursue any other mods that could have power stats on them, ie Constitution, without having to worry about the mods loosing effectiveness due to unneeded and arbitrary caps.
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Steamline - FE combo is now dead since Streamline will barely add anything to it.
Also, this will just force people to use Rage- Quick thinking - Flow and Equilibrium combo more instead. We will always move from one alternative to another just to abuse this infinite energy for as long as possible.
And maybe drop some gears around.
Streamline would then add just as much as any other basic warframe abilty stat, a linear scaling 30%
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Just want to clear up how your system would work before giving my opinion.
So with your new efficiency calculation, the maximum possible efficiency with maxed Streamline (30%) and Fleeting Expertise (99%) would be 129%?
An ability that costs 100 energy normally would then cost 43.7 energy?
Yes, that would be correct
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Also, as stated by others, efficiency isn't on every build (contrary to what you claimed), since Duration and Range are both needed on some builds. for example, my Mirage and my Loki both use high-duration builds for their powers (since, typically, I end up getting all my used power back before the end of the ability's duration).
But with those abilities you get more time per point of energy by using fleeting, loki can stay perma inviable due to fleeting, Valkrs have 40s+ ults that cost 25 energy becasue of fleeting. ATM, fleeting isn't the problem per se, it simply made the real problem, how power efficiency is calculated, come to light
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I like this, save one thing: Fleeting, under that system, would give you 99% efficiency. That means one orb = 25 rhino stomps, or 50 iron skins, or 100 rhino charges. With siphon, forget orbs. And even if you have blind rage maxed, you get 74% efficiency anyway. It doesn't solve the problem at all, if anything, it makes it worse.
I say raise the cap to 50, keep streamline as is, and lower fleeting to five ranks, +8 efficiency per rank if that were the case.
However, energy is a precious resource, needed for channeling and QT, which my Valkyr and Loki avid use of. Taking this into consideration, why not:
1) Make efficiency lower as the ability gets more powerful (doubles)
2) Maintain the cap
3) Increase the effectiveness of channeling and QT (this means decreasing the energy drain of melee utility while increasing Focus Energy by 20%, and making QT about 60% more effective).
This allows utility mods requiring energy to be more useful, while also preventing ability spam - but not affecting the current performance of other energy-dependent abilies.
Did you read about changing the calcuations for how PE was handled, +99% PE wouble make 1 energy stomps, it would cause 51 energy stomps...
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I am not suggesting a removal of PE, simply a rework as it is the only stat in the game to scale exponetially and as such having it at anything other than maxed is a waste. Doing so is a mandatory lock of two more mod slots, and with two already locked down with redirection ( or steel fiber if Valkr) and vitality, too many of the mods slots are being filled with needed mods. A simple change to the way PE is handled will make it suefull, without being needed.
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So, one thing that has been bugging me so far is how the power efficiency stat is currently being handled. As of right now, both fleeting expertice and streamline have been added to the list of mandatory mods for any mid-late game player. This is becasue, unlike every other stat modifier in the game, power efficiency scales exponentially instead of linearly. For example; if you were to add 50% power efficiency you would be able to cast your abilities twice as often, but by adding half more, you can now cast them four times as often. This makes maxing out power efficiency a must for any later build warframe, thus leaving Blind rage with almost no usability. As it stands a pure power efficiency build will do more damage per energy than a build that has both efficiency mods with both strength mods. 2.20 / 0.65 = 3.52 < 4 = 1 / 0.25
This needs to change. a simple rearrangement of the way power efficiency is calculated could bring power efficiency in line with every other stat. As is power useage is determined by; Base Cost * (1 - Power Efficiency)
In order to make the graph of ability uses per set energy a linear one one would simply need to modify the equation to be; Base Cost / (1 + Power Efficiency)
If such a change were made two other small changes would also have to be implemented; firstly the arbitrary 75% cap on power efficiency would need to be removed and fleeting expertice should be brought in line numerically with the other corrupted mods at 10 ranks for +9% Efficiency and -5% Duration per rank
Any feedback / suggestions / counter-arguements?
EDIT: Due to the comments talking about how if DE were to remove PE it would break certain things I say, do you see anything here about removing PE, this is a thread on how to rework to calculations for balance sake, not a rage thread saying that it should be removed. Thank you.
Power Efficiency; Why It Is Broken And How It Can Be Fixed.
in Warframes
Posted · Edited by Stravix
If you feel i do not understand something why not try to explain, instead of insulting me continuously. At the moment, you are simply looking as if you are trolling because you are not actually contributing and actually providing basis for your claims. I have given my evidence that supports my claim that PE is currently scaling disproportionately compared to the other stats. If you would beg to differ, then by all means do so, but with proof, be it numbers or some other concrete method of conveyance.