Rewarding Exploration More

[goozilla]

Or you could make it an entirely different mission type. There's honestly no point in exploring in Extermination, Spy, Rescue, and Assassination, except sightseeing.

 

The reason why it works in PSO2 is because of the loot system and map types. You GET what find immediately, regardless if you fail the mission overall or not. There's also spawning events, and the high drop rate meter from kills. There's really no point in sticking around for that in any of the missions when we could just go to Kappa/Kiste/Xini/Valefor/Venera and spam ults.

Edited May 8, 2013 by goozilla

[TgSid2001]

Absolutely do this! There's nothing more frustrating than playing with higher level or pay-to-win players who think they have to beat the level in under 5 minutes... ESPECIALLY when I'm trying to level up new weapons, frames or farm for resources or levels. 

 

 

Simple solution.

Online (Open)-Anyone, default setting.
Online (Speedrun)-Only paired with other people in this mode, just for speedrunners. Maybe throw in a time limit.
Online (Explorer)-Same as above, 'cept maybe with a bonus for total extinction or exploration.

I'd like this since my moood varies. Sometimes it's "Oh my god, get this mission OVER!" so I'd click speedrun. Other times, "I want to really sit back and PLAY this game!" so, explore.

Don't know how hard it would be to program, but I'd like to see something like this.

 

I think this is a fantastic idea! However, why not just do away with the "default" mode and make the exploration mode the default? You would add incentive to explore/exterminate every enemy in a given level, rewarding those who enjoy that play style. And then for Speedrun Mode, you could get better rewards at the end of the match by completing the given objectives in under a set amount of time. The times could be tiered as well, for rewards for gold, silver and bronze times.

 

Heck, you could even make the rewards between modes different - which would give players a good incentive to try playing the game outside their comfort zone. Which, in my opinion, makes for a more well rounded, more skilled player community and also means more challenges and more fun.

 

Another consideration could be to actually design levels around speedrun/racing game play. Right now, while fun, I don't really see a lot of practical application for wall running or back flipping off of crates while in combat. I find it much easier to run from cover to cover (which is usually in the form of crates, pillars or boxes) to avoid excessive gunfire. I don't see a lot of levels that have a lot of secret areas and tactically advantageous positions which are only accessible by wall running. Maybe another consideration for the speedrun/racing play style crowd would be to design levels that emphasized these sort of fast paced maneuvers?  

[Drakontis]

And yet again, I find myself being able to post on two sides of the same coin, mostly because I've been speed running today.

 

Usually, I take my time to kill things, open lockers, etc. I like finding materials I need and etc. I usually like killing enemies and exterminating everything I can find. It's very rare that in a NORMAL game setting I will run ahead of my teammates to the extent that they are dropped behind me so far they don't get EXP or can't keep up. I like the minimal teamwork and help with heavy units. More often than not, I get left behind a little. If I'm playing Rhino, no problem. I can tank most anything in normal games. However, there have been times when I DO rush in normal games. Usually it's because it's a "NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE F#$% THIS NOPE" situation where me or my team is swarmed and I just don't have the energy, ammo or ability to take that group of enemies on. So I run, I run hard, I run fast and I GTFO of that mofo before my butt is dead. I've done this a few times and missed out on some materials or some mods, but I survived and that's what counted to me. 

 

ON THE FLIP SIDE, however, I have done some speed running. Namely today I was doing so on Mercury on the Vor level. I was doing so because I wanted to get in and out quickly and repeatedly. Sure, I could have switched to my heavy frames and run it solo (and I did successfully solo one round for the heck of it with a level 6 Nyx), but then I couldn't help people. I figured at least if I'm doing it, I can keep my room open and people can follow behind and grab the stuff when the boss is down. I didn't get any complaints, but there may have been some peeved people. But having that freedom of choice worked for me in that case because I could do what I needed and get out. I got my mats and mods along the way with minimal problems. And that's how I liked it. And odds are, there were a few newbies in the game who got EXP, Mods, Materials and progress from my running without having much of a struggle. 

[Tetsmeha]

Speed running exists because there really isnt a good way to keep pacing. This suggestion might work, but if a party was exploring then decided halfway through to just rush the rest of the level, then having different online categories would be pointless. You can't and shouldn't enforce the way players should play the game.

In a similar MMO called Spiral Knights, pacing was controlled by a party button, where every single member of the party had to stand on a giant button to move on or trigger an important ambush. Right now we have double lock doors where only two people have to open the door at the same time. I just think we need to have doors that waits until everyone is at the threshold before opening.

 

+1 for SK

 

Those party buttons actually work. Me and my friend destroy and explore entire levels for 30 minutes just so that we don't lose any money or materials when we get on the button.

 

But I think the difference between spiral knights and warframe is that you spent money in SK to go to the tier 3 dungeons. That gave people the incentive to farm back the money spent by actually killing the mobs.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Tetsmeha

[Baigan]

Well, when saying that you don't get as much by speed running, you are going against the credo of the "speed runners". One could argue that the time you spend investigating one ship 100% you could run two or three other ships. Some people want to reach the objective, for several reasons. Random mission bonus, alert reward, maybe trying to kill a boss for it's drops again, credits, the list goes on.

 

I like some of the ideas presented here, specially the lobby modifications, and the intrinsic rewards.

 

Some people are really into stealth, but stealthing an entire mission would be probably the slowest way to achieve anything, and the less rewarding, since you got barely any experience from kills outside from normal enemies (no waves of opposition), nor any drops besides what you got from containers. Adding the mentioned rewards for doing certain criterias would be an welcome change to this. Maybe even add rewards for speed running.

 

- Exploration.

- Timely fashion.

- Obliteration.

- Stealthy.

- Perfect? (no life lost?) :p

 

Getting combinations of those would be really interesting, maybe getting all five even possible to an insanely coordinated group.

 

Another incentive for exploration would be making those treasure rooms actually have a chance of dropping something nice (you know those dead ends with 2-4 lockers) like some significantly extra amount of materials (at least 10 times the regular amount, or the very rare ones dropped in that system, like control modules, orokin cells, neurodes...), a hefty amount of money (5k+), or a guaranteed -rare- mod (any uncommon or common mod would hardly justify the hassle of looking for it otherwise).

Edited May 9, 2013 by Baigan

[Furyion]

agreed but with hidden traps and loot or other

[Pave]

I just reminded of this: Why in the heck every single door within Corpus-maps aren't equipted with lasers? Let's think of this: Big problem with cameras and laser-barriers is that both can be easily ignored in most of the cases.

So why not make the laser-barriers completely inpetratable and increase the amount of surveilance-cameras? It's isn't necessarily "party-button"-solution ala Spiral Knights, but certainly could help to certain degree fighting against harmful rushing.

 

I actually also like the system in Spiral knights, in which you can simply drop-off the party and continue by yourself, if the party you're playing with isn't fun to play with.

Some references for party system in Spiral Knights, for those who haven't played it: http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Party

 

As for for Extermination-mission, I'm actually saying they're mainly "waste of time" for me, due the lack of mobs. So yeah, exploration in this maps isn't as rewarding. And I'd say it needs completel re-work, as mentioned by some others already.

 

Now, maybe there could be two kinds of missions in the end: Ones that reward you clearing missions as fast of possible (ala Phantasy Star Universe-levels in most of the time, like "blitz" or something similiar), and others reward you the longer the mission takes.

The balancing thing would be that the "blitz"-missions wouldn't necesarily have that many pick-up possibilities, and the rewards would be gained via "grades" (similiar fashion as in various other time-trial-missions, where kills and such would work as multipliers). And for the "time-comsuming missions", with back-tracking and such (extra-objectives, defence, etc.), the longer time the missions takes, the better the paycheck (mainly exp and credit-wise); this way "getting stuck" would be actually more rewarding (Monster Hunter Portable/Freedom 3 kinda falls into this category with extra monster encounters, both unannouced and annouced-post-primary-hunt).

[Drakontis]

The problem I have with increasing the amounts of laser doors or with completely taking rushing out of normal games, is that it doesn't give you the choice of a tactical retreat if you need one. There have been times in normal games where something happens and I'm just not seeing my team fight through. A 4 man game equivalent number of enemies versus a 2 or 3 man group attacking all at once with crossfires, grineer rollers and etc while I only have a low level frame who isn't quite up to speed? Yeah, I don't think we're gonna have a good time of that and it may be best to run. Taking out that option is detrimental. 

[XDeathCoreX]

Just call them Speed Demons because they sacrifice others for their own gain.

[Ryanshow]

Dunno if this has been mentioned yet but Why not just have extraction be opt out?

 

You've got 2 speedrunners who have been standing at extraction for the full minute and it asks you if you'd like to extract with them. If not they leave on their merry way and hosts migrate and you can continue.

[TgSid2001]

 there have been times when I DO rush in normal games. Usually it's because it's a "NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE F#$% THIS NOPE" situation where me or my team is swarmed and I just don't have the energy, ammo or ability to take that group of enemies on. So I run, I run hard, I run fast and I GTFO of that mofo before my butt is dead. I've done this a few times and missed out on some materials or some mods, but I survived and that's what counted to me. 

 

 ... Sure, I could have switched to my heavy frames and run it solo (and I did successfully solo one round for the heck of it with a level 6 Nyx), but then I couldn't help people. I figured at least if I'm doing it, I can keep my room open and people can follow behind and grab the stuff when the boss is down.

 

 ...I got my mats and mods along the way with minimal problems. And that's how I liked it. And odds are, there were a few newbies in the game who got EXP, Mods, Materials and progress from my running without having much of a struggle. 

 

I don't think the gripe about "speed running" applies to people that need to run away in order to survive. That happens, it's called a "retreat." If you stay with your party, but run back the direction that you and the party cleared, then no one's worse for wear. Regroup, get your shields back and get some melee kills to recoup your ammo, energy and life. No harm done. 

 

What upsets people about "speed running" is people selfishly running through a level, abandoning the rest of the party and gathering all the non-shareable loot for themselves. Not only does it take away from a person's online experience of the level overall, but the folks that get left behind get less loot (even the shareable loot disappears after a delay) AND they're more likely to get swarmed and killed or stuck behind objects... all because a few people had different plans.

 

Really the issue is less about the 'speed' at which you complete levels, but rather it's more about flaws in the drop system - and the selfish folks that exploit them. 

 

And you're not doing anyone looking for loot or drops any favors when you do your speed runs online. People who come in after you don't collect credits from objects once you've already collected them. And depending on when a player gets added to your mission, some of the other loot may have expired and the xp is minimal. The only real advantage you give another player by flying through a level is allowing them access to the next zone and whatever credit reward is at the end of the mission... which is arguably a really good way to power level through the star systems. Bad for farming, good for getting mission credits and opening up star paths. 

 

 

+1 for SK

 

Those party buttons actually work. Me and my friend destroy and explore entire levels for 30 minutes just so that we don't lose any money or materials when we get on the button.

 

But I think the difference between spiral knights and warframe is that you spent money in SK to go to the tier 3 dungeons. That gave people the incentive to farm back the money spent by actually killing the mobs.

 

I guess this is a solution, but it's incredibly heavy handed and arbitrary. A group (if well organized and coordinated) could search two parts of a level simultaneously, as in the "searching for data" missions.  I think it would be a more elegant solution to change the loot system to work fairly, rather than build in obstacles to compensate for the flaw.

 

Well, when saying that you don't get as much by speed running, you are going against the credo of the "speed runners". One could argue that the time you spend investigating one ship 100% you could run two or three other ships. Some people want to reach the objective, for several reasons. Random mission bonus, alert reward, maybe trying to kill a boss for it's drops again, credits, the list goes on...

 

...Some people are really into stealth, but stealthing an entire mission would be probably the slowest way to achieve anything, and the less rewarding, since you got barely any experience from kills outside from normal enemies (no waves of opposition), nor any drops besides what you got from containers. Adding the mentioned rewards for doing certain criterias would be an welcome change to this. Maybe even add rewards for speed running.

 

- Exploration.

- Timely fashion.

- Obliteration.

- Stealthy.

- Perfect? (no life lost?) :p

 

Getting combinations of those would be really interesting, maybe getting all five even possible to an insanely coordinated group.

 

Another incentive for exploration would be making those treasure rooms actually have a chance of dropping something nice (you know those dead ends with 2-4 lockers) like some significantly extra amount of materials (at least 10 times the regular amount, or the very rare ones dropped in that system, like control modules, orokin cells, neurodes...), a hefty amount of money (5k+), or a guaranteed -rare- mod (any uncommon or common mod would hardly justify the hassle of looking for it otherwise).

 

And that's exactly the problem. Some people feel that it's more efficient to run 3 levels quickly, than take their time and reap all the rewards they can from 1 or 2. Which is FINE. Some people like to play that way, then they should.

 

However, the two can't really coexist in the same level. Either you're keeping up with the speed runners, looting everything and ignoring monsters. Or you're swarmed by 4 player's worth of enemies, while you pick up the scraps and get stuck at impassable barriers. So either you fix the UI so people can be grouped according to their play style (which you can NEVER control.. griefing would be ridiculous) or you fix the loot and security camera systems.

 

Alternatively, you make the levels much larger with more 'easter egg' rooms and hidden areas. However, this isn't much of a fix because the moment players discover that the best rewards are in these areas, then speed runners will natural include them in their routes. That's just human nature.

 

The problem I have with increasing the amounts of laser doors or with completely taking rushing out of normal games, is that it doesn't give you the choice of a tactical retreat if you need one. There have been times in normal games where something happens and I'm just not seeing my team fight through. A 4 man game equivalent number of enemies versus a 2 or 3 man group attacking all at once with crossfires, grineer rollers and etc while I only have a low level frame who isn't quite up to speed? Yeah, I don't think we're gonna have a good time of that and it may be best to run. Taking out that option is detrimental. 

 

Sure, run. That's not the issue (see the first section!). The issue is when you are retreating deeper into the level. All this does is leave the impossible fight to fewer players, while the speed runner who ditched everyone grabs the loot and leaves. Speed running is NOT the same as running away. Speed running is running forward through the level, providing little contribution to the party's success, while gaining most of the reward. It's not tactical, it's selfish. 

 

My solution is to just make it so drops don't ever time out, allow credits to be shared across the whole party, through the whole level and have security camera detection (and all the consequences of it) more localized so you're not permanently blocked. Alternatively, there could always be an option to hack a console to disable security sensors in the immediate area.

 

That's my opinion anyway. 

[Andazeus]

Dunno if this has been mentioned yet but Why not just have extraction be opt out?

 

You've got 2 speedrunners who have been standing at extraction for the full minute and it asks you if you'd like to extract with them. If not they leave on their merry way and hosts migrate and you can continue.

 

I actually really like this idea. Exploration and speed running are two distinctive, yet completely valid playstyles and this solution would make for an interesting approach that allowed both to fit their style. I just think it is important that the game should never punish you for playing one or the other style.

[vieuxchat]

An exploration bonus would be a great idea... if there would something to explore. After a while you know every tile. They added some secret passages in some tiles, but there's just some more lockers and that's all.

So, there's no point in exploration.

Un less they add something like "catch them all" about Orokin parts that are hidden in tiles : the more you found before getting to extraction, the more affinity/credits/whatever you get.

[Pave]

Actually, this has been done way before Warframe. In fact, Wolfenstein 3D is the first game I can remember doing something liike this with the post-stage score-screen, so something similiar could be done here too.

[Meltina]

 

And you're not doing anyone looking for loot or drops any favors when you do your speed runs online. People who come in after you don't collect credits from objects once you've already collected them. And depending on when a player gets added to your mission, some of the other loot may have expired and the xp is minimal. The only real advantage you give another player by flying through a level is allowing them access to the next zone and whatever credit reward is at the end of the mission... which is arguably a really good way to power level through the star systems. Bad for farming, good for getting mission credits and opening up star paths. 

 

 

 

And that's exactly the problem. Some people feel that it's more efficient to run 3 levels quickly, than take their time and reap all the rewards they can from 1 or 2. Which is FINE. Some people like to play that way, then they should.

 

However, the two can't really coexist in the same level. Either you're keeping up with the speed runners, looting everything and ignoring monsters. Or you're swarmed by 4 player's worth of enemies, while you pick up the scraps and get stuck at impassable barriers. So either you fix the UI so people can be grouped according to their play style (which you can NEVER control.. griefing would be ridiculous) or you fix the loot and security camera systems.

 

 

My solution is to just make it so drops don't ever time out, allow credits to be shared across the whole party, through the whole level and have security camera detection (and all the consequences of it) more localized so you're not permanently blocked. Alternatively, there could always be an option to hack a console to disable security sensors in the immediate area.

 

 

 The thing is it is horribly ineffeicent to farm by exploring you get much more resources by doing mobile defense than you would by looting every crate and locker. Assassination missions are farmed for the boss drops as everything else is better farmed in defense missions.The only time it is worth doing the other missions is to rush them for the credit reward or to open the star map.

 

I do agree lazer doors need to be local.

 

Also they had the best soloution in the void. Treasure vaults. Exploring side paths got  you to rooms with 4-9 mods in them and usualy rare mods too. Except to run the void you need to pay money or farm hours on end for keys. Oh and look best ways to farm keys are rushing raid missions. wave 5 defense is a good one too.

[vieuxchat]

I thought about something : the void keys could be real keys in mission and hidden in hidden places (lots of tiles have such secret places)

[Tetsmeha]

Void mission barrels can drop mods so in a way they kind of reward exploring more.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Tetsmeha

[TgSid2001]

 The thing is it is horribly ineffeicent to farm by exploring you get much more resources by doing mobile defense than you would by looting every crate and locker. Assassination missions are farmed for the boss drops as everything else is better farmed in defense missions.The only time it is worth doing the other missions is to rush them for the credit reward or to open the star map.

 

I agree! The fact of the matter is, there's probably more incentive to speed run, especially in a group because the more people in the mission, the better the loot quality and drop rate. But it's just not fun for the folks who like to take their time. 

 

A quick and dirty fix would be to fix the drops and doors (for those of you just joining us, see above). Plus make extraction optional, as mentioned by Ryanshow and Andazeus.

 

A better fix would be to do the above mention stuff AND expand the levels to include secret rooms and rare goodies IN EVERY LEVEL that EVERYONE can share. 

 

I think that would satisfy both groups of players and keep them from stepping on each other's toes. 

[Pave]

Funny idea was indeed to have secret rooms similiar to what various roguelikes and Wolfenstein 3D-like games had. Not necesarily destructable walls (E.G. LoZelda-series) on space-ships (but on ground-bases, maybe; spaceships could have loose panels or something similiar).

 

Granted, the mentioned system certainly ain't going to be a easy thing to implement. But with the variety of "raw" rooms avaible and adding some precedual generation within the rooms itself, this could be very likely done (Evolution Worlds and Dark cloud are some more "simple "major"-titles off my head)