Shotgun Damage Dropoff Should Be Less Severe

[MECT_HET]

Someone already posted the ranges for the Hek, Sobek, and Strun. The first two are 20 meters and the Strun is 15.

Also I can tell you from personal experience that if you're hitting 1s that's because either your shotgun doesn't do enough damage per pellet to do more than that at range or its being reduced by enemy armor or resistances. Personally my Tigris does mid double digits even at the end of its falloff and can't go lower than that, so it's already capped too.

Test this stuff before you post asking for it.

have you ever faced a meaning of a word "example"? I've just pointed the main direction where I think DE could working on, but the ACTUAL values is up to them.

[nekrojiji]

because rifles fit into the role of being competent at basically all range(except extreme range). as for being able to "snipe" with rifles, yea, some rifles are accurate enough to snipe, but they DONT have pinpoint accuracy, which actual snipers do. snipers also come with better zoom. not to mention snipers also have better damage per hit/burst damage.

 

 

Soma and Gorgon have pinpoint accuracy on the first shot.

[LukeAura]

This *was* balanced when it became an issue and the recent weapons have been balanced around it. You just don't like their balancing choices but that doesn't make them bad or less valid decisions, especially when you can't actually put together a coherent argument for *why* these things are bad beyond "I don't like them, fix it!"

According to you it was balanced. According to most people falloff sucks.

And as far as I've seen in patch notes it has not been touched ever since introduction. So Yes, I'm rather inclined to believe their current implementation of fall off is less valid than if they were tweaking it over a period of time according to user feedback. 

 

And no, others said that they don't like it. They're supplying the argument. 

I'm just offering the solution that isn't increase spread. Which is to adjust fall off numbers so they're more acceptable/reasonable to everyone. 

 

[Fulmir]

I agree that shotguns should be used at close range.

 

But if shotguns have the damage per pellet inverslely proportional with the distance, than why automatic rifles have no damage falloff?!

 

Why have snipers if we can "snipe" with automatic rifles?!

 

If there's a damage falloff on shotguns ..... why not on autoamtic rifles!? (so autiomatic rifles still have more effective range than shotguns but less than semiautomatic/bolt-action rifles)

Pretty much what leonvision said. Rifles are a jack of all trades weapon group (for the most part) and don't excel at super long range or very short range. Giving them bullet drop-off isn't really required for them to fill this niche. You could certainly give them bullet drop-off to push them more out of the domain of the sniper rifles but I'd rather see an attempt at buffing the relatively small category of sniper weapons first.

 

It really baffles me that you think shotguns would magically become rifles just because they're actually somewhat effective at medium range.  There'd still be a world of difference, even when it comes to automatic shotguns.

 

It's a good point that assault rifles lack falloff, which makes them impede on the territory of sniper rifles, which are already horribly weak, even the powerful ones like the Vectis and Lanka.  The Lanka was recently given innate punch through, which was really just a lazy bandaid solution of giving it AoE.

 

But I don't want to give assault rifles falloff, because it's really not a good mechanic.  Even if sniper rifles are mediocre, there is a difference in gameplay between sniper rifles and assault rifles.  And there would be one even if shotguns lacked damage falloff entirely.

 

Making the falloff more gradual wouldn't make them rifles any more than assault rifles are sniper rifles just because of the game's compressed distance.

It would likely crowd out some of the closer-range rifles though, making them obsolete in favor of the new longer-range shotguns. Your idea of where the falloff should be would make it irrelevant in a large portion of circumstances.

 

have you ever faced a meaning of a word "example"? I've just pointed the main direction where I think DE could working on, but the ACTUAL values is up to them.

Lets see... You didn't phrase what you were saying like it was an example. You used exact numbers and listed off exact things you wanted done, all of which are already moot. If you meant to give an example then phrase it like an example or general idea rather than being so specific (and then getting angry when your points are refuted)

 

Soma and Gorgon have pinpoint accuracy on the first shot.

Because plinking with those is totally better than a sniper-rifle...

 

According to you it was balanced. According to most people falloff sucks.

And as far as I've seen in patch notes it has not been touched ever since introduction. So Yes, I'm rather inclined to believe their current implementation of fall off is less valid than if they were tweaking it over a period of time according to user feedback. 

 

And no, others said that they don't like it. They're supplying the argument. 

I'm just offering the solution that isn't increase spread. Which is to adjust fall off numbers so they're more acceptable/reasonable to everyone. 

 

"Most people" aka a few people you've talked to. Personally I like falloff how it is where shotguns are higher damage but more specific in their niche. Are you going to magically make both of us happy with your solution or does my opinion just not matter because I disagree with you?

[LukeAura]

 

"Most people" aka a few people you've talked to. Personally I like falloff how it is where shotguns are higher damage but more specific in their niche. Are you going to magically make both of us happy with your solution or does my opinion just not matter because I disagree with you?

Well my solution is to adjust fall off numbers and with the rate this topics seem to come back up in the forums, and the support they tend to get each time, I highly doubt it's just a few. 

For all we know fall off currently makes a significant portion of people unhappy/unsatisfied. 

My solution might keep you happy. And might make us happy. 

It's better than doing nothing. And can always be reversed.

[leonvision]

Soma and Gorgon have pinpoint accuracy on the first shot.

 

false and false.

[NikolaiLev]

Soma and Gorgon have pinpoint accuracy on the first shot.

 

The Soma does.  The Gorgon used to, but not anymore, unfortunately.  It really should.

[Fulmir]

Well my solution is to adjust fall off numbers and with the rate this topics seem to come back up in the forums, and the support they tend to get each time, I highly doubt it's just a few. 

For all we know fall off currently makes a significant portion of people unhappy/unsatisfied. 

My solution might keep you happy. And might make us happy. 

It's better than doing nothing. And can always be reversed.

The number of people who actually bother with the forums is pretty small in general. DE can get more accurate stats from in-game usage statistics. I guarantee you that's how they decided to adjust shotguns in the first place. You can't look at a mildly popular forum topic as a good measure of the popularity of a specific view unless you get absolutely massive numbers of people weighing in in one direction, and I mean hundreds or thousands not the few dozen this stuff gets.

 

The Soma does.  The Gorgon used to, but not anymore, unfortunately.  It really should.

Not sure why this matters since unless you're fighting way under-leveled enemies for your weapon you won't kill in one shot anyway.

[NikolaiLev]

 

Not sure why this matters since unless you're fighting way under-leveled enemies for your weapon you won't kill in one shot anyway.

 

Really, I was just correcting him so the argument isn't side-tracked.  Not sure what his point was in the first place.

[bobafetthotmail]

At a guess shotguns will remain somewhat stronger in some situations but Melee will have other advantages like incapacitating the enemy more effectively, higher survivability, and not requiring ammo like shotguns do.

Unless stunlocks get severely nerfed or can be avoided by parry or whatever, shotguns will be significantly better just because allow you to stay out of that range.

 

 

If you pushed out their range and nerfed their damage you'd have rifles in all but name. Not gonna happen that would just be making everything bland again and DE have shown that they don't want that.

Shotguns have more pellets = x4 or more to proc chances per shot. That's already a big difference.

But anyway, shotguns at the ranges they are effective at do share similarities with rifles.

Unless you are shooting birdshot anyway.

[Fulmir]

Unless stunlocks get severely nerfed or can be avoided by parry or whatever, shotguns will be significantly better just because allow you to stay out of that range.

Assuming DE are going to get the melee update wrong isn't really a productive assumption for the purposes of this discussion. That said, this isn't a bad point, maybe you should go contribute it to whatever discussion is going on with regards to said update.

 

 

Shotguns have more pellets = x4 or more to proc chances per shot. That's already a big difference.

But anyway, shotguns at the ranges they are effective at do share similarities with rifles.

Unless you are shooting birdshot anyway.

"at the ranges they are effective" is sort of the point here. If you push the ranges out into what is currently fairly solid Rifle territory you're going to end up making some rifles obsolete, or, I suppose the rifles could make the shotguns obsolete if you dropped shotgun damage enough along with the range increase.

[bobafetthotmail]

"at the ranges they are effective" is sort of the point here. If you push the ranges out into what is currently fairly solid Rifle territory you're going to end up making some rifles obsolete, or, I suppose the rifles could make the shotguns obsolete if you dropped shotgun damage enough along with the range increase.

The main issue here is that the game's average combat ranges are well into solid shotgun territory as well, the "solid rifle territory" is only in SOME boss arenas, SOME tiles of Phobos and Corpus Gas City and the forest tileset they showcased at Cicero event. "solid sniper rifle territory" is nowhere to be seen.

 

While keeping shotguns as "melee" like most other games do is not doable because we have already a melee system (or will in the future anyway).

 

Besides, this is more a fundamental issue, if you use too little stats to differentiate weapons it gets very hard to make more than 3-4 really different weapons, most will be very similar but with a few more/less numbers here and there. There are quite a few rifles that are obsoleted by other rifles (Soma and Braton Prime tower over anything else in rifle category), and if we had not Damage 2.0 all rifles would be nearly all the same and only the DPS would differentiate them.

 

I said it in another thread about this, shotguns used in real life are much more tools than weapons, there are tons of weird loads for them to turn a shottie in a door breaching tool (rifles would simply punch a hole in the lock and kill anything standing behind the lock, those loads blow off the whole lock and stop), mini-grenade launcher, tazer rounds, rope-throwing loads and whatever else.

 

Rifles focus on damage and significantly longer ranges.

 

So the main difference between them in-game where we don't get to shoot on anything beyond 100 meters and we need less stuff competing with melee, should be mainly trick shots.

Shotguns get higher chance to do trick shots (higher proc chance), get dedicated trick mods (like the Thunderbolt for bows) and whatever.

 

Of course if they make more tiles where weapon ranges are longer, weapon range can be used again to differentiate shotties and rifles. Falloff and spread are artifical limitations at the ranges they put them.

Edited January 17, 2014 by bobafetthotmail