[Flexibility] Bring All Frames To Nova Tier Without Buffs

[ThePresident777]

Stopped reading here. I skimmed the rest.

 

How about no. I really do not think you get the intracicies of game design at all. Despite the logical arguing, I refuse to go further with somebody who doesn't understand something, and tries to generalize it into something it isn't.

 

Nerfing doesn't increase difficulty. Game balance does not center around TTK at all, saying so is dumb. Nerfs and buffs exist for a reason, and it is painfully obvious that you don't know why, or just don't care. I am willing to wager on a 20:80 split. 

 

Balance is not detrimental to the consumers sanctification. It is actually beneficial. Think about how many people are dissatisfied with nova, and how many people enjoy nova.

Now I want you to consider something, is making nova the non-goto-choice for anything and everything relating to damage because she grossly outclasses her piers really going to make nova players not enjoy the game?  Maybe it might happen in the extreme circumstance, but I highly doubt it.

Do you know what does make users quit supplying money to the developer? Gross imbalance and bad game design. 11/10 times this will kill a game from the majority of audiences, and this is a fact. 

 

There is a reason the main principles of game design are present today. Can you take a guess as to why?

Its because we discovered them making games. The techniques present today for creating successful games were taken from games that sold.

Balance happens to be a part of this, yet you try to discredit it as a consumer-base killer, when it is quite in fact the opposite.

 

I am sure you have read why balance is equally important in PvP and PvE games. Imagine if chess replaced every pawn in the game with queens for white. Now from your viewpoint, what should happen is that because a (presumably) large sect of players enjoy playing as white in this version of chess, what should happen is that black is given the same treatment, rather than white being scaled down. White being scaled down is better for the game, imagine the clusterfuck of 18 queens on the chess board at once. Do you really think anybody can call that a respectable game?

 

You're not going to consider my point of view but you expect me to keep recycling your tired old blind bias?  No thanks.

[Cwierz]

Cwierz, Pres, do you guys fight on every thread or is it just me? 

I think this is the third time I've seen you get in to these. 

Maybe you should take it elsewhere before you start derailing this thread. 

Teleport, I think one of the biggest changes to this would be just to start more of the flip before he teleports so he can make use of the stun time. But I also think it might be necessary as well as dropping any aggro on him with merely a second roughly where he can't gain it back. Nothing too redefining, but enough he can actually feel like he's getting in and assassinating someone with it. 

 

Verbular debate that can sometimes get a bit rough around the edges. We have differing opinions, we are giving feedback about the same topic, it is bound to happen.

 

Also, teleport needs to be free aiming.

Like really, it needs to so badly you don't understand.

 

I shall now type up why-

 

Ash is a warframe, that instead of possessing a niche, mixes previously existing niches in a very inneffiecent way. His powers do little to complement each other, and his playstyle is rudimentary at best. There is nothing definable about what separates a good ash player, from a mediocre one which is present in most frames that we have in the game.

 

In his abilities, smoke screen is obviously the most used, no debating that number. Shuriken fits the theme, but could probably use some more. Blade-storm has some problems with it that I feel require a new thread to be addressed with. Teleport, is accepted as the least slotted, least used, most inefficient ability on his kit. 

 

But have you ever considered why?

 

Is it because it is hard to aim? No. Is it because it needs damage? No. Is it because of the aggro he receives? No. It is none of those things. Why it will always remain this way, is the presence of smoke-screen on his kit. Right now ash is stuck between the odd place of a stealthy(no stealth in this game lel) offensive role. When this is the case, smoke screen fits these roles very well. It provides a healthy boost to melee damage, and can let you engage in various stealthy activities. What does this have to do with teleport? We will get to that.

 

Right now, if you want a stealthy warframe in general, banshee with a shade or loki are generally better. If you want a warframe that focuses on damage, it would be much better to bring something like a mag, nova, or ember along. The niche of stealth offense in this game is very limited, simply because of how unpractical it is in a team setting, and how little relevance it has in solo considering how loki can do it better.

 

If we want ash to start to not be overshadowed, we need to give him something that gives his kit potential. Much like how Loki has decoy. What better ability is there to do so with than teleport? Teleport, has to potential to give ash a unique playstyle by making it free-aiming. Anyone who played dishonored should have the general idea of a free-aiming teleportation. (Granted levels there were designed with it in mind) It opens up new ways of playing, and allows for further kit depth.

 

With a free-aiming teleport Ash now has something that other frames do not posses (or at least well) that allows for varied gameplay. Of course, this wouldn't be the only thing required, but it is the best starting point for making ash what he should be.

[notionphil]

With a free-aiming teleport Ash now has something that other frames do not posses (or at least well) that allows for varied gameplay. Of course, this wouldn't be the only thing required, but it is the best starting point for making ash what he should be.

 

Played a bit of Ash last night...

 

What would your thoughts be on a free aiming TP with a 5m AoE stun proc? I would absolutely LOVE to see this in action. Even TP to walls etc, anything within 25m.

 

And on Shuriken automatically resetting a target to unalerted state...AKA: a poison dart

[Etsoree]

First thing I read about Volt was technically a buff.

 

Misleading thread.

[LukeAura]

Played a bit of Ash last night...

 

What would your thoughts be on a free aiming TP with a 5m AoE stun proc? I would absolutely LOVE to see this in action. Even TP to walls etc, anything within 25m.

 

And on Shuriken automatically resetting a target to unalerted state...AKA: a poison dart

That would be perfect I think for Teleport... I notice we have a large gap of ability ranges between the 4 meter diameter of Fireblast's ring and the 20m diameter of Smokescreen's stagger. We have over 15 meters of ability diameter to play with here, why is it such an empty range? 

 

[notionphil]

First thing I read about Volt was technically a buff.

 

Misleading thread.

 

Thanks for the feedback. Semantically speaking, anything that increases applied power could be called a buff; these included.

 

However in the classical sense, a buff is a direct numerical enhancement to an elements key properties - in the case of a Warframe ability, that would generally mean + dmg, +range or -cost.

 

I did my best to keep the suggestions limited to non-numerical tweaks to remove an ability's inflexibility, though some were so borked they needed a bit of addl help.

 

If you have suggestions to tweak any that seem too numerically 'buffy' please contribute them.

[aleco247]

Why to nova, she is garbage

[Darkreaper006]

honestly, it would help if Warframes got passive abilities

 

I'm still shocked when I saw that Ember could get burned, Saryn taking poison damage and Frost loosing shields in icy maps

(you know where I'm going with this)

[TheThreadWeaver]

Really in love with these. Will come back to look at it again after going over some thoughts on ways to adjust frame flexibility.

 

I think that Banshee's soundquake should stay the same, because of how the soundwaves are being emitted. Either that, or add an animation where she drops a drone on the location. There's just a disconnect between the proposed idea and the established lore mechanics.

 

With Frost, I'd like to suggest that enemies affected by his freeze / cold debuffs become more susceptible to impact damage, as the freezing would have made them brittle.

[SonicDoragon]

Really in love with these. Will come back to look at it again after going over some thoughts on ways to adjust frame flexibility.

 

I think that Banshee's soundquake should stay the same, because of how the soundwaves are being emitted. Either that, or add an animation where she drops a drone on the location. There's just a disconnect between the proposed idea and the established lore mechanics.

 

With Frost, I'd like to suggest that enemies affected by his freeze / cold debuffs become more susceptible to impact damage, as the freezing would have made them brittle.

if it's a lore problem it could easily be fixed with, 

 

Lotus voice:"Tenno, after much research with newly found materials, we've done it. We've found a way to upgrade our frames in a way we could only imagine before." 

or some malarkey along that line. then just change the description. Easy peasy. Name it Update "Old Frames 2.0"

Edited March 11, 2014 by SonicDoragon

[creeperZface]

if frames like ash were made nova standard his shirken would have to 1 shot unalerted enemies and blade storm does not alert enemies.

[CaveCricket48]

Ash: simple tweaks help this assassin play well with others

 

Smokescreen: turns nearby allies and Sentinels invisible (attacking makes allies visible again).

 

Problem with that is that's basically what Radial Blind on excal is, except Ash's version will be less useful in defense based missions.

[notionphil]

Problem with that is that's basically what Radial Blind on excal is, except Ash's version will be less useful in defense based missions.

 

It's essentially the Sentinel Shade's ability, except on an entire group. Not at all like radial blind; it doesn't affect the enemy in any way.

 

Agreed it wouldn't be very useful on defense unless you wanted to make a quick run through enemy territory. It would be an evasion, mobility, travel skill - and has some fun teamwork potential.

[CaveCricket48]

It's essentially the Sentinel Shade's ability, except on an entire group. Not at all like radial blind; it doesn't affect the enemy in any way.

 

Agreed it wouldn't be very useful on defense unless you wanted to make a quick run through enemy territory. It would be an evasion, mobility, travel skill - and has some fun teamwork potential.

 

Hmm, I can see that working. Would help a lot with group rushes too. 

[notionphil]

Hmm, I can see that working. Would help a lot with group rushes too. 

 

Yep. The range would have to be pretty large like volt's speed. I'm not a huge fan of rushing but DE's decided it's a viable playstyle, and group invis for some short time would definitely give Ash a really desired ability.

 

Another take on the ability would just be to make smokescreens defensive effects to apply to the cryopod and all team members. That is pretty darn powerful as well.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I'd rather the group invis simply because it would give Ash a more unique role and value to the team.

[LukeAura]

I went and took Ash for a spin myself. 
I think with smokescreen it feels so jarring for Ash to stop moving, drop the smokebomb, and then have the brief few seconds his invisibility has. Especially at the lower ranks of the mod, it's like I'm wasting half my time just getting back in to motion.
Use during all movement would be nice, aerial or grounded. And make it a 1 handed skill to so it doesn't have to interrupt reloads or gunfire.

 

[notionphil]

I went and took Ash for a spin myself. 

I think with smokescreen it feels so jarring for Ash to stop moving, drop the smokebomb, and then have the brief few seconds his invisibility has. Especially at the lower ranks of the mod, it's like I'm wasting half my time just getting back in to motion.

Use during all movement would be nice, aerial or grounded. And make it a 1 handed skill to so it doesn't have to interrupt reloads or gunfire.

 

 

A lot of the early frames have that issue - just playing w Mag and Exc recently...Excalibur spends half of his time waiting around after an ult. Slashdash doesn't carry momentum and has a lag time.

 

Lag time needs to be removed except from very powerful ults.