Analysis Of Snipetron Vs. Lex: Snipetron Is Way Too Weak

[Inofor]

Thread currently outdated. Snipetron deals elemental AP damage as of update 7.10.0.

 

Numbers fixed and conclusion updated! Updated for patch 7.8.0.

As far as I know, these are the stats for these two weapons. I will use maximum stats to compare, since the stat growth between upgrades is linear. Both have 100% accuracy, so multishot just basically adds damage.

Lex:
Damage: 70
Crit rate: 0,15
Crit multiplier: 1,52 (460 AP damage became 700 on corpus crewman headshot)
Fire rate: 1,08 shots per second (converted from 65 rpm)
Clip size: 6
Reload time: 2,35 seconds

Snipetron:
Damage: 100
Crit rate: 0,15 to 0,249 (Was showed as 0.2 last patch. Will assume 20% in calculations, but might be wrong)
Crit multiplier: 1,50 (tests show 100 damage to 150, 33+1/3 damage to 50 damage)
Fire rate: 1,4 shots per second
Clip size: 4
Reload time: 5 seconds

Both have same polarity slots (one for damage or multishot).

Damage:

Lex max normal damage: 3,2*80=224 for 14 mod points.
Snipetron max normal damage: 2,65*100=265 damage for 14 mod points.

Elemental damage:
Armour piercing:
Maximum AP for Snipetron is 60% for 9 points.
Maximum AP for Lex is 30% for 7 points.

Freeze:
Maximum freeze for Snipetron is 90% for 9 points.
Maximum freeze for Lex is 60% for 9 points.

Fire:
Maximum fire for Snipetron is 90% for 11 points.
Maximum fire for Lex is 90% for 11 points.

Electrical:
Maximum electrical for Snipetron is 90% for 11 points.
Maximum electrical for Lex is 90% for 11 points.

Multishot:

I will assume that multishot works as it did before the patch, since I don't have any new information about that.

Maximum multishot for Snipetron is +90% for 15 points. Dynamic pattern. It takes 2 shots for multishot to proc, with 0.2 left over.
Shot pattern:
1/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2...
Repeat.

Maximum multishot for Lex is +120% for 11 points. Dynamic pattern. It takes 5*0,2 shots for multishot 3 to proc.
Shot pattern:
2/2/2/2/3...
Repeat.

Crit chance for single shot:

The Snipetron has a maximum of 2,5*0.2=50% chance to crit for 9 points.
The Lex has maximum 2,2*0,15=33% chance to crit for 9 points.

Crit damage:

Confirmed to be multiplicative by testing with snipetron.

Maximum crit multiplier for Snipetron is 2,2*1,5=3,3 for 9 points
Maximum crit multiplier for Lex is 1,6*1,5=2,4 for 9 points

Reload speed:

The minimum reload speed for Snipetron is 5s/1,3=3,85 seconds for 7 points. Absolute change in value: 3,8s-2,92s=1,15s
The minimum reload speed for Lex is 2,35s/1,48=1,59 seconds for 7 points. Absolute change in value: 2,35s-1,59s=0,76s
The chosen reload speed for the Lex build is 2,35s/1,40=1,68 seconds for 6 points. Absolute change in value: 2,35s-1,68s=0,67s

Fire rate:

The maximum fire rate for Snipetron is 1,6*1.4=2,24 shots/second for 9 points.
The chosen fire rate for Snipetron is 1,4 shots/second
Time to empty chosen Snipetron clip (4) with chosen rate of fire (1,4 shots/s) is 0+3/1,4 seconds = 2,14s
The maximum fire rate for Lex is 1,72*1,08=1,86 shots/second for 9 points.
The chosen fire rate for Lex is 1,48*1,08=1,60 shots/second for 7 points.
Time to empty chosen Lex clip (6) with chosen rate of fire (1,60 shots/s) is 0+5/1,6 seconds = 3,125s
Let's have a look at a build for each one, then compare potential.

Snipetron (anti-corpus build, switch electrical for fire and it'll work vs infestation):
Multishot 0,9 15*0.5=8 points
Damage 2,65 14 points
Electrical 0,9 11 points
Freeze 0,9 9 points
Crit chance 1,5 9 points
Crit damage 1,2 9 points

60-14-11-3*9-8=0
All points are used.

Damage for one shot: 265+265*0,9Freeze+265*0,9Electrical=265+238Freeze+238Electrical=741 total damage to an element neutral target with no armor. This may introduce error when calculating headshots.
Part damages rounded down, since they're displayed independently.
Multishot 2: 1482 damage.

Crit chance:
Two separate 50% chances for crit each shot.
The complementing probability for the 50% crit rate is 1-(1-0,50)^n where n = shots fired simultaneously
Single shot: 20% chance to crit
Multishot 2:
One shot crits: 1-(1-0,50)^2=75%
Both shots crit: 0,50^2=25%

Crit damage:
Single shot:
741*3,3=2445,3 down to 2445 damage
Multishot 2:
741*3,3+741=3186,3 down to 3186 damage if one of the shots crits
741*2*3,3=4890,6 down to 4890 damage if both shots crit

Expected value(in relation to damage) for situation where:
single shot is shot and it crits: 0.5*2445,3=1222,65
two shots are shot and one crits: 0,75*3186,3=2389,725
two shots are shot and both crit: 0,25*4890,6=1222,65


Lex:
Damage 3,2 14*0.5=7 points
Multishot 1,2 11 points
Fire 0,9 for 11 points
Electrical 0,9 for 11 points
AP 0,3 7 points
Fire Rate 1,48 for 7 points
Reload Speed 1/1,40 for 6 points

60-3*11-3*7-6=0
All points are used.

Damage for one shot (Never does this!): 224+224*0,3AP+224*0,9Fire+224*0,9Electrical=224+67AP+201Fire+201Electrical=693 total damage to an element neutral target with no armor.
Multishot 2 is the lowest amount of bullets that'll ever come out of the gun.
Multishot 2: 2*693=1386 damage
Multishot 3: 3*693=2079 damage (every 5th shot)

Crit chance:
The complementing probability for the 15% crit rate is 1-(1-0,15)^n where n = shots fired simultaneously
Multishot 2:
Two separate 15% chances for crit each shot.
The chance that at least one shot will crit: 1-(1-0,15)^2=27,75%
Multishot 3:
Three separate 15% chances for crit each shot.
The chance that at least one shot will crit: 1-(1-0,15)^3=38,59%

Crit damage:
693*1,52=1053 damage per shot (Never happens!)
Multishot 2:
1053+693=1746 if one of the shots crits
1053*2=2106 if both crit
Multishot 3:
1053+693*2=2439 if one crits
1053*2+693=2799 if two crit
1053*3=3159 if all three crit
Expected value(in relation to damage) for situation where:
two shots are fired and one crits: 1746*0,2775=484,52
three shots are fired and one crits: 2439*0,3859=941,21

Damage evaluation for the first clip assuming no crits:

Snipetron:
1/2/2/2= total of 7 bullets from 4 shots
7*741 damage=5187 damage in 2,14s, with a 5 second wait after shooting
Burst dps: 5187dmg/2,14s=2423,8 dps
Sustained dps: 5187dmg/(2,14s+5s)=726,5dps

With expected value(in relation to number of shots fired in first clip) of crits:
Crit chance: 50%
Number of shots: 7
EV=0,5*7=3,5
(7-3,5)*741+3,5*2445=11151dmg in 2,14s, with a 5 second wait after shooting
Burst dps with crit: 11151dmg/2,14s=5210,7 dps
Sustained dps with crit: 5187dmg/(2,14s+5s)=1561,8dps (Still lower than Lex without crits! Holy moley!)

Lex:
2/2/2/2/3/2= total of 13 bullets from 6 shots
13*693 damage=9009 damage in 3,125s, with a 1,68s wait after shooting
Burst dps: 9009dmg/3,125s=2882,9 dps
Sustained dps: 9009dmg/(3,125s+1,68s)=1874,9dps

With expected value(in relation to number of shots fired in first clip) of crits:
Crit chance: 15%
Number of shots: 13
EV=0,15*13=1,95
(13-1,95)*693+1,95*1053=9711dmg in 3,125s, with a 1,68s wait after shooting
Burst dps with crit: 9711dmg/3,125s=3107,5 dps
Sustained dps with crit: 9711dmg/(3,125s+1,68s)=2021,0dps
Conclusion:

Well then. The analysis is done. Not as precise as one could perform it (no evaluation for the effect of armour), but close enough to draw a conclusion.

The Lex also has a pretty much endless supply of ammo, while the snipetron needs to choose its targets and conserve ammunition. Considering the much better utility (+50% clip size, smaller zoom, faster reload, endless ammo etc.) of the Lex, it's still far ahead in normal combat.

The Snipetron is slightly ahead in crits, but that is not of much use in general combat situations since it'll just end up overkilling a lot of the time. In boss situations (where the snipetron should stand out), sustained dps is the key stat by which the effectiveness of the gun is defined. As seen above, the Snipetron's reload and small clip size kills its sustained dps in boss-fight situations. There really isn't a niche that would make Snipetron's high burst dps useful.

Therefore, the snipetron is still weaker than the Lex. Lex still has both the utility and the power.

Please let me know if I made mistakes in my values or failed at probability calculation. I'll try to fix it.

EDIT: Changed Lex base crit multiplier from 2,0 to 1,52. Noticed in-game while I was playing (460 damage became 700 crit)
EDIT: Fixed Lex base damage to 70 and all related calculations. Thanks Wolfelin!
EDIT: Fixed values for snipetron damage, crit multiplier, new rifle mods. Basically overhauled entire snipetron calculation for update 7.8.0. Added primitive but rather useful burst dps and sustained dps calculations.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Inofor

[Erbbu]

That's apples, mate.

[ShadowsCrush]

tl;dr

sidearm mods are better and more point cost effective than 2hand gun weapons

this is true for nearly all sidearms vs rifles, and there have been several threads regarding it already

[MoyuTheTrinity]

You prancin' show ponies.

[Ifreet]

Yeah and sidearm ammo drops more frequently too and on top of that 20 ammo per pick as compared to sniper's 10 ammo.

[newnar]

Then you compare the Lex and Latron and realise that IT'S THE GODDAMN SIDEARMS THAT NEEDS NERFING NOT THE MAIN WEAPONS THAT NEED BUFFING

[PaleMinerva]

That's largely due to the fact that rifle mods are near worthless in comparison to pistol and shotgun mods.

[newnar]

Mods aside, The stock numbers themselves are ridiculous.

[PaleMinerva]

Not particularly. Especially not when the Lex is billed as a hand cannon.

[newnar]

Semi-auto rifle losing out in terms of dps to a hand cannon?

[MoyuTheTrinity]

Semi-auto rifle losing out in terms of dps to a hand cannon?

thats because the semi auto rifle is more of a 22 marlin and not an actual weapon you use it to shoot nutria not to kill heavy armored targets

or in other words a very dangerous bb gun it is not a toy but it is not ment to actualy kill a human

Edited March 28, 2013 by MoyuTheMedic

[bptamblyn]

thats because the semi auto rifle is more of a 22 marlin and not an actual weapon you use it to shoot nutria not to kill heavy armored targets

or in other words a very dangerous bb gun it is not a toy but it is not ment to actualy kill a human

o.O how the hell do u figure that the sniper in a futuristic fictional game is a 22 marlin?

[newnar]

Where's the Tenno version of the Barrett XM500?

Edited March 29, 2013 by newnar

[Inofor]

Fixed crit damage and all related values for Lex. Noticed that the multiplier was actually 1,5 while I was running Tolstoj.

EDIT: Narrowed it down further. Headshot on corpus goes from 460 to 700 when critting, so 1,52.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Inofor

[Wolfelin]

One important thing to note is that Lex base damage is 70, not 80 as stated in the patch note. It changes many things in your calculations, and make the Lex more balanced compared to Snipetron.

Besides, as others already stated, the problem comes mainly from the handside weapons mods being much more effectives than rifles ones.

Anyway, your post is still interesting and helpful for balancing issues.

[Inofor]

What is your basis for saying that the base damage for Lex has 70 base damage? I heard that the in-game stats are wrong.

EDIT: Tested. Base damage for Lex is 70.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Inofor

[Wolfelin]

Just test in game with a raw lex.

[Inofor]

Confirmed. The patch notes had false information on them, fixing fixed! Thanks for the info, Wolfelin. Looks like the Lex is still far ahead.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Inofor

[MoyuTheTrinity]

o.O how the hell do u figure that the sniper in a futuristic fictional game is a 22 marlin?

Latron is not a sniper its not even a semi auto rifle it has a fixed rate of fire + it is affected by your framerate so it will fire even slower if your lagging

[xephyris]

I think the main thing here really is that fact that side-arm mods are far better than rifle mods. While this balances out fast-firing guns like the Bratons or the Gorgon, it appears to also affect the single shot ones badly. Hopefully DE notices this and does something about it.

[bptamblyn]

thats because the semi auto rifle is more of a 22 marlin and not an actual weapon you use it to shoot nutria not to kill heavy armored targets

or in other words a very dangerous bb gun it is not a toy but it is not ment to actualy kill a human

Latron is not a sniper its not even a semi auto rifle it has a fixed rate of fire + it is affected by your framerate so it will fire even slower if your lagging

So I think we can both agree that your first post crazy rite? lol

Edited March 30, 2013 by bptamblyn

[JudgeDeaths]

Latron is not a sniper its not even a semi auto rifle it has a fixed rate of fire + it is affected by your framerate so it will fire even slower if your lagging

What are you even TALKING about in this thread? Look at yourself man! You make no sense in any of your posts.

[Goldobsidian]

honestly I agree, the snipe tron is way to low powered. It is a sniper rifle, its suppost to carry a big carterage, a big punch at long distance with unerroring accuracy. Though some of the side arms or other weapons are quiet on the powerful side you have to lose the call of duty mentality. A 45 ACP round will drop any person today unless their hopped up on some kinda drug in one or two hits if they dont have armor, a headshot with a 45 ACP is a 100% garenteed kill unless the person who gets shot has divine favor or is immortal. A sniper rifle carrys much the same effect at ranges a pistol only wishes it could shoot half that far. I see the snipe tron to be the equivilant of a 338 lupa magnum round or other standard police/military tactical sniper rifle, aka SMALLER THEN 50 CAL, but it is far to weak to be a good weapon. Sniper rifle ammo, and sniper scavanger only become "slightly" useful with the introduction of the paris, I do not know any one who uses the snipetron because it is a "good/effective weapon" which is a problem. It needs to be buffed more than it has been no matter how you look at it. With its current stats, I would rather use a braton or burston assault rifle, preferably a bolter assuming it is not nerfed in the near future, over a snipetron any day AND now that I have the paris too, The only time I use any of the other "rifle" class weapons, is when I need their full auto power to keep a bosses shields down so it can be killed which the paris, with the most powerful mods fitted, will never acheive.

[Zyfe3rX]

Snipertron needs higher base damage, like 170 or something.

But nerfing Lex would make it useless , cause its already bloody slow ~.~

But check again, AKBOLTO / BOLTO and Lato Vandal is waaay better the than 2 of em !

They are better than most Primary guns !

Edited March 30, 2013 by Zyfe3rX

[newnar]

Another thing is that the Bolto/Akbolto/Boltor series are obviously OP as well. The Paris is the correct way to balanced total armour penetration ranged arms.