Energy Change - Overcharge

[rabb1t]

Here's something I thought up, probably been suggested before, wouldn't surprise me. But what if suits had a max amount of energy which dissipates over time.

 

http://www.rabb1t.com/temp/overcharge.swf'>Here is an example graphic

 

This would require, basically, completely redoing all of the suits energy systems, HOWEVER, I find myself often sitting at max during missions just holding as much as I can for emergencies instead of using energy. With a deteriorating max you've got a couple of things that could be new / interesting for the game.

 

Max and Overcharge base idea.

 

My Loki suit starts with 100 and maxes at 225 at level 30. Let's say that were now changed to start with 100, capps at 150, and has an Overcharge range from 150-300. Let's say the base decay rate is 1 Overcharge per 2 seconds. So... I start the mission. I pick up a bunch of energy, I don't use it, it caps at 300, but it's disappearing at 1 per 2 seconds if I don't keep picking up new energy balls. If I never find any more during the mission the overcharge would decay down to my suit's base max at 150.

 

This encourages players to burn off that overcharge and only keep what the max on their suit is for emergencies. There is now a "use it or lose it" component to energy, encouraging power use when overcharged (which means combats would become more power-use encouraged, as you are killing bad guys but regaining lost energy from the energy ball drops).

 

The only disadvantage to this system from a development standpoint is it would require the creation of several new stats for suits; base, base cap, overcharge cap, and overcharge decay rate.

 

Potential mods

 

Since you've now changed how energy works this opens things up to all kinds of nifty energy mods which don't currently exist in the game.

 

- Energy max; increases base energy cap. Say that's common and the base is level 4 and is +10 energy. Since energy is basically built into the suit, maybe you want to cap this pretty low at rank 8, which would be +50 energy.

- Overcharge max; increases your Overcharge capacity. Maybe this is uncommon and, as above, base 4 with +10 energy.

- Overcharge decay; reduces the decay rate. This should probably be rare, maybe base 6, and reduces it by 0.5 seconds. (So, if the base decay is 1 per 2 it now becomes 1 per 2.5, then 1 per 3, etc.)

 

This is really more beneficial to a person who prefers a 'caster' play style, however, I think it adds a lot of strategy to energy use, as well as making people who are 'casters' feel like they have more to play with since so many of the current mods seem physical / combat focused. (The only 'caster like' one I think I've seen is range increase.)

 

 

Do note though that you probably want to better distinguish the colors. Blue for shields and energy seems confusing, and, of course, overcharge needs its own color or bar as well. I know you guys said UI changes were on the way, so maybe this distinction is already planned. :)

Edited April 19, 2013 by rabb1t

[SleepStriker]

Intersting

[Shion963]

So you capped at 300, one second later it's 299, and you pick up a sphere for 50/25. It restores 1 energy, which after another second is lost again. Kind of a waste, isn't it? Not to mention the unnecessary stress added in hunting for energy orbs trying to keep it at max overcharge.

 

As a Loki and lots of energy orbs around, why don't you use that 225 energy in battle? Decoy helps draw aggro away from everyone in the team, Invisibility helps you deal more damage via crits or getting around, Switch Teleport can be used to rearrange the battlefield and keep Elites further away.

 

Even if you ran out of energy, evidently you have a playstyle that stays fine without power usage anyways.

[AndryB94]

Very interesting, I'll give you that. Let me try and add my opinion to this as well:

First of all, this could be balanced somehow. That is, if you had (at level 30 as Loki) 225 energy and then something in the lines of 225-400 energy of overcap, that'd be... A LOT of energy. Perhaps tuning it down, so that you had less "normal" energy (~175) and overcap energy (~175-300?) would be great. You could leave some energy orbs aside, quickly grab them and as your energy is going down you can just use your abilities as much as you want and can.

I honestly don't want new mods. You already only have ten slots, four of them are ability slots, and two of them are specified for some polarities (at least, that's on Mag). That leaves you with four slots only, and... It's not a lot, trust me. You could, however, have a GENERAL increase mod - that is, the "Increases max energy" would -also- increase the overcap limit.

What about the Energy Syphon artifact? It'd be rendered sort of useless whenever the normal cap is reached, because if you have a 1/2s regeneration, and a 1/2s loss, you're not gaining anything.

For a caster game-play I would rather have a permanent or more reliable source of energy regeneration than a higher pool. That, however, would need to change some mechanics, as some abilities (like most ultimates) are extremly powerful. Mag's crush deals a base 1000 damage and needs 100 power. If I had a steady regeneration, I could just use the ultimate, hide, and use it again, which is not a fair game - the ability would need to be decreased in power to accomodate the new regeneration.
In fact, the same goes if you have a higher cap - if I had 300 overcapped energy, I could quickly spam Crush 3 times in a row. That is a HUGE amount of damage.

[ShadowsCrush]

I'm not sure I understand why anyone would be concerned with burning the overcharge energy if it's going to decay regardless...?

 

You never listed (or i missed it) what the advantage of spending that energy is?

-Does it stop the decay for a time?

-Does it slow the decay for the next X seconds?

 

Basically the way you have it described now, instead of having it decay 25 energy in 50 seconds, I've burned 25 energy in 1 second to use an ability on a target that probably did not need an ability used on it in the first place...

 

Also agreed with Andry, the current state of abilities doesnt support a pure caster mod loadout

Edited April 19, 2013 by ShadowsCrush

[AndryB94]

Also agreed with Andry, the current state of abilities doesnt support a pure caster mod loadout

You -can- get Energy Syphon, which gives you 1/2s energy regeneration, but it's still ridiculously low. Also, the fact you get energy by energy orbs and not by other means (such as killing or regeneration) makes it slightly unstable. In fact, I'd rather gain a lower amount of energy by killing enemies (and some enemies could give you more energy) than having to look around for orbs, especially because you usually end up finding 10 orbs when you only need 3, and then you don't want to go to back and pick these orbs when you need the energy (and sometimes you do and you don't find the orbs anymore!). I'm a scavenger, I tend to pause and open every single storage/crate I see, and because I tend to save up my energy for emergency situations I tend to have my bar full most of the time, resulting in my energy orbs being wasted most of the time.

[Fluffanutter]

I disagree with energy decay, for some of the Frames, Casters Especially with a  long hard side glance to Frost and Rhino they tend to Spike between full energy and no Energy, the model being in the game how it is now allows for an ebb and flow between having to watch your energy reserves when in the thick of it, and being able to go all out at the beginning of a situation to help get it under control.

 

You -can- get Energy Syphon, which gives you 1/2s energy regeneration, but it's still ridiculously low. Also, the fact you get energy by energy orbs and not by other means (such as killing or regeneration) makes it slightly unstable. In fact, I'd rather gain a lower amount of energy by killing enemies (and some enemies could give you more energy) than having to look around for orbs, especially because you usually end up finding 10 orbs when you only need 3, and then you don't want to go to back and pick these orbs when you need the energy (and sometimes you do and you don't find the orbs anymore!). I'm a scavenger, I tend to pause and open every single storage/crate I see, and because I tend to save up my energy for emergency situations I tend to have my bar full most of the time, resulting in my energy orbs being wasted most of the time.

 

 

My problem with the kill to get energy Model is the MASS AoE that some Frames can put out, if this is implemented I, and others who build as I do will be able to quite literally stand in one place on Defense maps for the entire time and smack an AoE button every few seconds. While I can still do this depending on the frequency of Energy Drops, I still have to hop down and sprint around, risking my hide in the process to pick up enough energy to begin the process over again.

 

Fluffanutter

 

*Edited for Improper word usage, as well as Spelling

Edited April 19, 2013 by Fluffanutter

[Varil]

Eh...sorry, I don't like it. Some frames should be burning power constantly, others should probably save it for emergencies. I use my powers constantly as Excalibur, because I see no reason *not* to slash-and-dash every time I see more than 3 enemies in a group. But my Mag only uses Crush and Pull in emergencies, so she sits at max power most of the time.

 

If you feel like you should be using your power more...use it more! There doesn't need to be any more incentive than there is.

[AndryB94]

I disagree with energy decay, for some of the Frames, Casters Especially with a  long hard side glance to Frost and Rhino they tend to Spike between full energy and no Energy, the model being in the game how it is now allows for an ebb and flow between having to watch your energy reserves when in the thick of it, and being able to go all out at the beginning of a situation to help get it under control.

 

 

 

My problem with the kill to get energy Model is the MASS AoE that some Frames can put out, if this is implemented I, and others who build as I do will be able to quite literally stand in one place on Defense maps for the entire time and smack an AoE button every few seconds. While I can still do this depending on the frequency of Energy Drops, I still have to hop down and sprint around, risking my hide in the process to pick up enough energy to begin the process over again.

 

Fluffanutter

 

*Edited for Improper word usage, as well as Spelling

That was part of my point, however.

-IF- a more reliable way to get energy is obtained, you also need to tone down some of the abilities (especially the AoE ultis) so that they don't become spammable. That, or you could have some mechanics that say "This ability consumes up to y extra energy to deal an extra x damage per energy point". You could have that as a default, or achieve it by holding down the ability button.

[rabb1t]

So you capped at 300, one second later it's 299, and you pick up a sphere for 50/25. It restores 1 energy, which after another second is lost again. Kind of a waste, isn't it? Not to mention the unnecessary stress added in hunting for energy orbs trying to keep it at max overcharge.

 

[other words]

 

They could add a delay before Overcharge starts to dropp off cap, maybe 10 seconds or something.

 

As to Loki strat, which is NOT what this is about; I do use decoy, but only in situations where I'm fighting more than about 5 guys. I spend my time soloing, and I typically do difficulty 3 and up on levels which are 15-25. If there's a group of 5 or more, without a decoy you can drop in about 5 seconds. So you MUST keep enough energy for several decoys, as the decoys drop in about that short of a time as well since they don't scale well. Invisibility is unnecessary unless odds are completely overwhelming. Maybe that's just the completionist in me. Switch teleport in combat? Never use it. Maybe it's my 'soldier' playstyle of keeping everyone in front of me. But again, I'd rather avoid situations where I'm dead in 5-10 seconds when surrounded.

 

Am I "fine without power useage"? Absolutely not. The odds I'm fighting against can run me from full 225 to zero in a heavy fight, of which with the levels I play that can hapen often and put you in a bad way very quickly.

 

Yes, with this game and my not being thrilled with powers I don't use them often, and honestly would probably prefer a 'soldier' Warframe which has buffs as powers (a grenade would be really nice though), so I'm just trying to think of ways which would encourage ME to be more active with power use in the non-emergency situations.

 

 

Very interesting, I'll give you that. Let me try and add my opinion to this as well:

First of all, this could be balanced somehow. That is, if you had (at level 30 as Loki) 225 energy and then something in the lines of 225-400 energy of overcap, that'd be... A LOT of energy. Perhaps tuning it down, so that you had less "normal" energy (~175) and overcap energy (~175-300?) would be great. You could leave some energy orbs aside, quickly grab them and as your energy is going down you can just use your abilities as much as you want and can.

 

That was my original suggestion. :) Something like 150 cap on "normal", with it being able to reach a TOTAL of 300 from Overcharge.  :)

 

 

What about the Energy Syphon artifact? It'd be rendered sort of useless whenever the normal cap is reached, because if you have a 1/2s regeneration, and a 1/2s loss, you're not gaining anything.

 

I'm not familiar with that. I know, I think it's Trinity, has an energy debuff that gives + energy to the party. I don't see how that would be devalued in this system. If anything it would be more valuable, as it ensures you are more often near your Overcharge range / cap.

 

 

For a caster game-play I would rather have a permanent or more reliable source of energy regeneration than a higher pool. That, however, would need to change some mechanics, as some abilities (like most ultimates) are extremly powerful. Mag's crush deals a base 1000 damage and needs 100 power. If I had a steady regeneration, I could just use the ultimate, hide, and use it again, which is not a fair game - the ability would need to be decreased in power to accomodate the new regeneration.

In fact, the same goes if you have a higher cap - if I had 300 overcapped energy, I could quickly spam Crush 3 times in a row. That is a HUGE amount of damage.

 

True enough, but right now you can do 2 at max, no? Under the new system if you DON'T use it when you are in Overcharge, you'd drop down to 1.5 base. So, in theory, it should even out if the drop rate for orbs and time in Overcharge were balanced.

 

 

Basically the way you have it described now, instead of having it decay 25 energy in 50 seconds, I've burned 25 energy in 1 second to use an ability on a target that probably did not need an ability used on it in the first place...

 

Which is, in itself, part of the point. As above, I tend to do difficulty 3+ missions (maybe less so now with the 'you get nothing if you fail' change), but only 4 and 5 are truly challenging to me. In many difficulty 3 I find myself held at max not spending energy through much of the level. This suggestion will make the game a more active one which encourages power use.

 

Let's look at Mass Effect 3 as a comparison. I use abilities ALL THE TIME because they don't have a cap, they are on simple recycle timer. (And a lot of them are interesting to me, which honestly is a whole other issue here.) But here we have to collect x to recover the energy. Thus if you use it up and don't find x you are left not being able to use them AT ALL. That creates a feeling of 'I may need to save it' in players which *I* feel can cause people to hoard it.

 

I disagree with energy decay, for some of the Frames, Casters Especially with a  long hard side glance to Frost and Rhino they tend to Spike between full energy and no Energy, the model being in the game how it is now allows for an ebb and flow between having to watch your energy reserves when in the thick of it, and being able to go all out at the beginning of a situation to help get it under control.

 

But that's part of why I suggested this. For me, holding at full energy is tactical and interesting at times, but sometimes I start to get bored and wish I could just go with a passive powered suit. If I'm not encouraged to use powers any time I tend to hold the energy all the time 'for emergencies'.

Edited April 20, 2013 by rabb1t

[rabb1t]

For a caster game-play I would rather have a permanent or more reliable source of energy regeneration than a higher pool. That, however, would need to change some mechanics, as some abilities (like most ultimates) are extremly powerful. Mag's crush deals a base 1000 damage and needs 100 power. If I had a steady regeneration, I could just use the ultimate, hide, and use it again, which is not a fair game - the ability would need to be decreased in power to accomodate the new regeneration.

In fact, the same goes if you have a higher cap - if I had 300 overcapped energy, I could quickly spam Crush 3 times in a row. That is a HUGE amount of damage.

 

You could also solve for that by adding a recycle timer. I'd say something like 30 seconds, but that's probably too long for this kind of game as most of the fights I'm in don't last all that long. :)