Hek, From Amazing To Terrible.

[Meltina]

The problem is the fact that it completely dominated the combat. No weapon came close to raw power and range of Hek. It was perfect weapon for all situations. 

 

We have to choices.

1. Buff everything to the usefulness of Hek. And later buff the enemy even more.

2. Nerf the Hek and keep other things in the same place.

 

This situation is the same as the Krysae nerfwar in ME3MP last year. One weapon was introduced and dominated the combat, player feel empowered, everything died left and right, and no doubt - it was nerf, hard.

 

Players whined and threw tantrum. Such is the cycle of balance.

Ah the Krysae air gun the poor thing isn't used anymore. I remember trying that thing it was slightly less effective than harsh language atleast that could atleast hurt their feelings. Do you really think any weapon deserves that kinda hit with the nerf bat. Its a pity the concept was cool I missed the explosive rounds on a sniper from ME1. It was like the neutered the dog and threw it away leaving you with the balls for a companion.

[neKroMancer]

Hek not only was hit so that it's useless at range, but also the damage seems to drop point blank. Sure it was absurd before this patch, but now for a mastery 4 rank item, it doesn't seem worth it any longer.

 

Also I'll be the first one to argue regarding real life vs. video game gun ballistics however since realism isn't a necessity for a game, it is unnecessary to argue.

 

Realism != fun || balance in every instance.

That was not true, point blank damage is still as OP as usual. The falloff begins around 10-15 meter.

[Probta16]

Hek still with 100% stun/stagger? If yes, people should play with Strun ' -'

[neKroMancer]

Ah the Krysae air gun the poor thing isn't used anymore. I remember trying that thing it was slightly less effective than harsh language atleast that could atleast hurt their feelings. Do you really think any weapon deserves that kinda hit with the nerf bat. Its a pity the concept was cool I missed the explosive rounds on a sniper from ME1. It was like the neutered the dog and threw it away leaving you with the balls for a companion.

 

Yes, I believe so. Krysae is rare weapon but performance was better than most ultra rare. After the nerf, it is the same level as other rares.

 

Shieldgate ignoring, AOE, affect by infiltrator's cloak - it was literally a bazooka in SR form.

[iamLoveless]

The problem is the fact that it completely dominated the combat. No weapon came close to raw power and range of Hek. It was perfect weapon for all situations. 

 

We have to choices.

1. Buff everything to the usefulness of Hek. And later buff the enemy even more.

2. Nerf the Hek and keep other things in the same place.

 

This situation is the same as the Krysae nerfwar in ME3MP last year. One weapon was introduced and dominated the combat, player feel empowered, everything died left and right, and no doubt - it was nerf, hard.

 

Players whined and threw tantrum. Such is the cycle of balance.

I don't particularly care how ME3's MP went. This is Warframe. I already acknowledged that the Hek needed tweaking, but like I said, it's popularity is not only the fault of the gun. The lack of viable alternatives in nearly every respect made the gun a clear winner. I actually covered multiple examples in the post you JUST quoted. Making a whole class of weapons useless so people stop using a particular gun is LAZY. Not to mention that if you didn't blow $10 out of your &#! to buy the thing, you had to invest considerable time and effort to acquire it. 

 

Shotguns shouldn't play the role of extreme CQC like they do in every other game known to man, because in this we have pretty good MELEE weapons. If the effective range of a shotgun is 10-15m, then they have no part to play, because anyone can close the gap in a second and cleave and/or smash any any enemy in that range to pieces!

Edited April 27, 2013 by iamLoveless

[Meltina]

Yes, I believe so. Krysae is rare weapon but performance was better than most ultra rare. After the nerf, it is the same level as other rares.

 

Shieldgate ignoring, AOE, affect by infiltrator's cloak - it was literally a bazooka in SR form.

25% less damage per shot and 1/2 the fire rate of the basic common sniper rifle. Shield gate does apply but does get bonus damage to armor. Every other weapon gets cloak bonuses low damage means poor scaling.

 

396 dps common mantis vs 283 dps kyrsae before headshots. Btw kyrsae gets no headshot multiplier. The mantis is also lighter too.

Only hp that matters is the last 1 dead target and 1 full hp target does less damage to you than 2 half health targets.

[OriKlein]

But bear in mind that the Devs talked about balancing weapons. If the Hek is so overpowered, the other weapons will be viewed upon as 'useless'. 

 

It's not that HEK is overpowered, it's that the other weapons WERE useless.

But instead of arguing for buffing them, you argue to nerf the HEK.

Great plan chief!

 

 

Reposting myself from another thread:

 

 

Let me fix that for you...

 

HEK Pre-Patch: Range=close/mid/long --- very high damage (if you modded it with high-end mods) upto high levels.

Strun/BOAR Pre-Patch: Range=close -- average damage vs low levels / Range=mid -- lame damage / Range=long -- what damage?

 

HEK Post-Patch: Range=point blank -- hey it can still kill level 20 runners! / Range=mid -- ROFL IT TICKLES THEM! / Range=long -- "Lancer #1> Did you hear something? Lancer #2> No, not a thing...just this annoying sand-grain wind chafing my armour.

Strun/BOAR Post-Patch: Range=point blank -- that's a shotgun? / Range=mid/long -- LOLERSKATERS! *TROLLFACE*

 

HEK was the only effective shotgun. The other two were pure junk. Instead of buffing them up, they all got nerfed. And HEK was rendered as useless as the other two. It's one thing to put a distance cap (accuracy/spread or just projectile life span), it's another to take the weapon's damage away altogether.

The entire weapon array of the shotgun line is now essentially obsolete.

Might as well take their mods and use them as fusing fuels, selling them off and clearing the inventory slots for other weapons.

 

 

This "argument" essentially divides onto two: People who actually used HEK and care, and people who did not and don't. But, instead of looking at their favorite weapons and demanding a buff, they looked at HEK with mad envy and wailed on it until it was nerfed to dust. GG.

Edited April 27, 2013 by OriKlein

[AscendantWyvern]

That's what you think of a shotgun in CoD. IRL a shotgun is accurate at 100+ meters.

However, in real life, that is considered short range. Rifles hit around 600+ and long rifles are designed for +1000m

 

Now I don't own a Hek so I can't possibly know how bad it was nerfed, nor how "OP" it was in the beginning, but the Hek still has advantages over the Strun or Boar. Its tight spread essentially turns the Hek into a hard hitter up close, its accurate spread allows for a great many pellets to impact with more force. 

 

Now sure, you can't one-hit a target downrange anymore, but surely it doesnt turn the weapon useless anymore. A lot of weapons can't even hit anything down-range.

[mmSNAKE]

Hahaha I think its funny to all the rages that the shot guns are now what they are ment to be sure it was fun shooting a shotgun 1000meters but really its a shotgun its only ment to shoot 5m so grow up and use the shotgun how its ment to be used.

but if they added a new mod for the shotgun say a slug mod turning the spray into one round then the range would also increase

 

5 Meters is an exaggeration. It's not "meant" to be used as such. It's just made that way by the developers. You can kill a person at 20-30m with non slug loads easy. Regardless, it is what it is.

 

Slug mod on the other hand would be really neat. I'd like that, however that would sort of defeat the purpose since we already have rifles.

[OriKlein]

However, in real life, that is considered short range. Rifles hit around 600+ and long rifles are designed for +1000m

 

Now I don't own a Hek so I can't possibly know how bad it was nerfed, nor how "OP" it was in the beginning, but the Hek still has advantages over the Strun or Boar. Its tight spread essentially turns the Hek into a hard hitter up close, its accurate spread allows for a great many pellets to impact with more force. 

 

Now sure, you can't one-hit a target downrange anymore, but surely it doesnt turn the weapon useless anymore. A lot of weapons can't even hit anything down-range.

 

HEK having advantage over Strun or Boar is a concrete block having advantage over tin cans and watermelons. You still can't use it as replacement for wheels for your car so that it can move.

You can't one-hit, or ten-hit, or twenty-hit a target further away than melee range.

A level 23 lancer takes 1-3 damage per pellet from a fully modded HEK at barely 7-lockers-worth distance.

[Zwoop]

I've only had Hek for a little over a day, and I fully agree that it needed to be reined in so it's not stepping on the toes of the Snipetron and other long range rifles, but the damage fall-off is way too heavyhanded as it's currently implemented. Damage fall-off might ultimately be the way to go to balance shotguns, but the range and damage reduction is way too abrupt right now, and pretty much destroys the niche Hek filled, let alone shotguns in general.

 

I expected a nerf along these lines, but didn't think it could be nearly as bad as it is until I tested it. Even with 3+ damage mods on a level 30 Hek (technically 15 w/catalyst) it takes 3-4 shots to kill a level 8 MOA once they cross the magical range line. That's nonsense. Shotguns now overlap with melee way more than they did with long rifles before.

[Ravtek]

No worries, just like how the best DPS for melee is charge attacks, leaving regular melee only good for killing trash mobs, I'm sure shotguns will get charge shot next patch. Then it's only a matter of getting a charge shot damage mod and spamming it to do damage at yardstick range.

 

In all seriousness though, I'm sure DE will fix this.

 

Because as of right now, there is zero incentive to level mastery rank past 2.

[stacey69]

So I just logged on to test out the new changes to the shotgun. It's terrible, there is literally no use for this weapon anymore. Potato'd takes 3 shots to kill a Grineer from 20m or so away. Strun and Boar are unarguably the better weapons. Thanks for wasting my time and effort, not to mention the only catalyst I had DE. 

 

Oh and making the Glaive BP an alert award is horse S#&$.

 

You #*($%%@ up.

 

Your topic should be "Hek, from amazing to now how it should always have been". 

 

Shotguns are and always will be for close range combat. Some players want to be infront at all times and in the enemies face. Shotguns are for these people.

 

Why should people who play free get anything before people who pay money and support the game?

You will get your blueprint very soon and you will enjoy the Glaive.

 

What they could have done was at least tell you what materials you will need for it when then Blueprint arrives. This would have made more sense but HELLO this is a small company with a NEW game. We are learning to play. They are learning how to make a game and run a business. 

 

Chill ya bean...All good things come to those who wait.

[lostinrehab]

My issue with the nerf to hek/gorgon is that it furthers the gap between juggernaut frames ( trinity & rhino ) and other frames just because they are still  able to walk right up to stuff and unload w/o care for taking hits utilizing each weapons full damage potential. Other frames not so much anymore.

 

Honestly with the range on both being so long they were a little op and made they sniper weapons garbage but still with how far the range is now its a bit short for both. As others have said I would love if the drop off was 25-35 yards instead of 15.

 

I would love to see feedback from the devs on the reasoning behind the excessive nerfs to the two high lvl weapons. I'm sure they probably have good reason but it really does suck for me because most other weapons are kind of lame. Then again that could be me just liking op weapons but is that even wrong in a game that is focused of PVE?!?

[Panzermeido]

Your topic should be "Hek, from amazing to now how it should always have been". 

 

Shotguns are and always will be for close range combat. Some players want to be infront at all times and in the enemies face. Shotguns are for these people.

 

Why should people who play free get anything before people who pay money and support the game?

You will get your blueprint very soon and you will enjoy the Glaive.

 

What they could have done was at least tell you what materials you will need for it when then Blueprint arrives. This would have made more sense but HELLO this is a small company with a NEW game. We are learning to play. They are learning how to make a game and run a business. 

 

Chill ya bean...All good things come to those who wait.

You don't really understand, don't you? DE aren't new. They know how to make games, but they make mistakes, and the Hek situation feels like one. Shotguns are about cones of fire and maximizing damage at the starting lengths of those cones, which, as a result, but not as a reason for, leads to close ranges being the most popular ones when shotguns are used.

A good example of a well-made shotgun in a PC game is the Reinbeck of Payday: The Heist. No drop of damage whatsoever, still useful at middle ranges, but requires follow-ups at longer distances. The shotguns in Warframe are already introduced with a cone of fire. Adding a CoD-style "damage drop-off" is excessive. It deals with Hek by making it outright useless in the role it technically should fulfill well - middle-range combat.

The issue could be dealt with hundreds of ways, but instead we get a carpet-nerf of every shotgun except the Bronco. I accept that Hek was over the top, considering the current gameplay paradigm, but stripping away the niche of the Hek and forcing him into being a melee weapon isn't balance at all.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Panzermeido

[Playbeyond]

Your topic should be "Hek, from amazing to now how it should always have been". 

 

Shotguns are and always will be for close range combat. Some players want to be infront at all times and in the enemies face. Shotguns are for these people.

 

Why should people who play free get anything before people who pay money and support the game?

You will get your blueprint very soon and you will enjoy the Glaive.

 

What they could have done was at least tell you what materials you will need for it when then Blueprint arrives. This would have made more sense but HELLO this is a small company with a NEW game. We are learning to play. They are learning how to make a game and run a business. 

 

Chill ya bean...All good things come to those who wait.

You will get downvoted to hell for this but I support you 100% +1 to you man

[Hatr]

Hek isn't the only nerfed weapon, don't move on gorgon because it isn't better, they made a shotgun out of a machine gun (the accuracy after the update SUCKS)

[Strac_CRO]

maybe the nerfed it's range too much

[LillySatou]

I don't understand why people so vehemently argue for nerfs or cry "OVERPOWERED! NERF!" For anything in a game that literally has NO competitive PvP value.

 

The reason HEK required a rank limit of 4 was because it was MADE to be the penultimate gun (For the time being). You got to Rank 4 through a lot of work and determination. The HEK was there to reward your progression through the game, and to provide a unique experience to shotguns and gunplay in general in mostly any shooter out there. The abysmal damage dropoff of shots makes the HEK completely outclassed by a shotgun actually designed to be used in closer range combat situations, namely the Strun. And now, because of the heavy nerfs to all shotguns, even the STRUN is outclassed by melee.

 

This is absolutely ridiculous that people would honestly believe that anything on the player side needs a nerf when there's absolutely no merit in it since, as I mentioned,competitive PvP is literally non-existent.

 

And yes, I also agree that breaking away from the realism of shotguns with the damage fall off change was too much.

[neKroMancer]

I don't understand why people so vehemently argue for nerfs or cry "OVERPOWERED! NERF!" For anything in a game that literally has NO competitive PvP value.

 

The reason HEK required a rank limit of 4 was because it was MADE to be the penultimate gun (For the time being). You got to Rank 4 through a lot of work and determination. The HEK was there to reward your progression through the game, and to provide a unique experience to shotguns and gunplay in general in mostly any shooter out there. The abysmal damage dropoff of shots makes the HEK completely outclassed by a shotgun actually designed to be used in closer range combat situations, namely the Strun. And now, because of the heavy nerfs to all shotguns, even the STRUN is outclassed by melee.

 

This is absolutely ridiculous that people would honestly believe that anything on the player side needs a nerf when there's absolutely no merit in it since, as I mentioned,competitive PvP is literally non-existent.

 

And yes, I also agree that breaking away from the realism of shotguns with the damage fall off change was too much.

 

It's the fact that it trumped every gun is why it got nerfed. PvE also requires balance in order to promote diversity among player. All playstyle should be promoted, not just one or two that require specific setup/loadout.

 

If you say PvE doesn't need balance, you don't know a thing about balance.

[OriKlein]

neKroMancer, on 27 Apr 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

It's the fact that it trumped every gun is why it got nerfed. PvE also requires balance in order to promote diversity among player. All playstyle should be promoted, not just one or two that require specific setup/loadout.

If you say PvE doesn't need balance, you don't know a thing about balance.

It didn't trump the LEX, which I'm sure will be hit with a massive nerf shortly.

And the only reason it trumped anything is because the rest of them purely, truely, SUCK.

 

I really have no reason to carry a primary weapon, as I there is not any primary weapon worth carrying.

They all are, literally, absolutely worthless going at level 35 upwards.

I just put all my rifle mods on my sentinel and call it a day, he does a better job than any of them.

Hell, now my sentinel can kill an ancient level 30 faster than the HEK does. A so-called "3 damage" laser rifle deals DPS faster than the HEK.

This is the sad state that we're in.

Edited April 27, 2013 by OriKlein

[stacey69]

You sir have clearly never fired a shotgun in real life.

 

 

This is a very good video to show what the Hek was kind of doing. Note he is firing a slug not ball bearings. Maybe this issue is more about ammo type?  Boar and Strun have spreads and obviously use pellets or ball bearings. Hek on the other hand was using more of a slug pellet. Anyway watch the video and see the size of the hole the VERY expensive and well made shotgun makes at over 200 yards.

 

Then laugh to yourself when you realise that even at half that distance it would not kill anyone with heavy armor unless it was a perfect head shot. The 200 yard shot leaves a tiny hole. Hek was blowing things apart at this range. Hek was broken and needed changing. Bit like defense maps were. They soon sorted that to a happy medium.

 

To the devs. Watch the video. It may give you some ideas.

 

Ceres666 nice post mate :)

[neKroMancer]

This is a very good video to show what the Hek was kind of doing. Note he is firing a slug not ball bearings. Maybe this issue is more about ammo type?  Boar and Strun have spreads and obviously use pellets or ball bearings. Hek on the other hand was using more of a slug pellet. Anyway watch the video and see the size of the hole the VERY expensive and well made shotgun makes at over 200 yards.

 

Then laugh to yourself when you realise that even at half that distance it would not kill anyone with heavy armor unless it was a perfect head shot. The 200 yard shot leaves a tiny hole. Hek was blowing things apart at this range. Hek was broken and needed changing. Bit like defense maps were. They soon sorted that to a happy medium.

 

To the devs. Watch the video. It may give you some ideas.

 

Ceres666 nice post mate :)

 

Ehh, I think Hek fires pellets, not slug. Since the damage shown in-game are multiple numbers at once. Hek is more like fullchoke shotgun : Less spread at long range.

[Xenoithlol]

Not seeing the terrible. It's a shotgun. In video games, this means short to mid range, not sniping. It's still good at short and a bit at mid.

[iamLoveless]

Not seeing the terrible. It's a shotgun. In video games, this means short to mid range, not sniping. It's still good at short and a bit at mid.

Read the @(*()$ posts, rendering a whole class of weapons useless, is NOT acceptable. And just because other games do stupid S#&$ with shotguns doesn't mean this one has to.