Multishot, Crit, And Damage

[Thaumatos]

Changes:

 

- Increased base Crit Chance and Damage on Grakata.

 

I'm not sure you guys realize how powerful multishot is...

 

I'm using the Grak as an example because its crit was just modified specifically to push players in that direction with that weapon.

 

A 90% chance of doing 2 shots at the same time is the same as 90% crit chance with x2 crit damage. Unless slotting maxed crit rate and damage goes way beyond 90% chance of doing double damage, its far more efficient and effective to put "Split Barrel" in at 15 points than "Point Strike" and "Vital Sense" at a total of 18 points.  Even in the Grak.

 

With split barrel and base Grak damage, you're looking at an average damage output of 16.2 damage per shot. I'm measuring the Grak's changed crit damage at x2. Assuming the 120% from "Vital Sense" is tacked right on to the base crit damage, that makes crit damage x3.2 when modded. In order to match a 16.2 average damage of a fully ranked multishot, you would have to assume that the +150% crit chance from "Point Strike" brings your crit chance up to 56.25% before they became equal in effectiveness.

 

Even if you crit approximately half the time, which you clearly don't, you have to look at the fact that "Point Strike" and "Vital Sense" cost 18 total ranked up whereas "Split Barrel" costs 15 and 1 less mod slot. You cant have one mod that overshadows TWO mods on even the gun where the two mods are the most effective.

 

That means it gets even worse when considering other weapons crit chance and damage, and pistols/shotguns are 120% multishot.  If crit chance and crit damage are any indication of how much more damage you want players to do and the cost for them to do it, multishot is extremely overpowered.

 

With the changes to the Grak, you still want multishot above all else.  Is that what you want for ranged combat in this game; everyone needs multishot or they can't compete?

[Zh40]

Pff. My serration mod isn't maxed (135%) and gave me insane damage for the Grakata (why is that hard to type for everyone now? -_-). Multishot isn't necessary to compete... wait, compete with who?

Multishot isn't OP, when you're going up against enemies twice your level you will still struggle to defeat them on your own. This game is and always has been about teamwork. Just because someone doesn't have multishot or a potato doesn't mean that they are unable to help out their friends in battle. The only thing you brought attention to with your post is that the grataka is better than most people initially believed, and that the boost wasn't exactly necessary (but entirely welcome). 

You're stacking end-game tier mods and then comparing them to the average player. The average player isn't that far ahead in the game.  The boosts from our mods are entirely necessary when going up against enemies that are double and triple our warframes level. The Grataka does just fine against level ten enemies at level ten. It does just fine against level twenty enemies at level twenty.  And that is how the game is supposed to be. When you're beating the crap out of van hek for the twentieth time, it's nice to have multishot to make the battle go by a little bit faster.  It's not OP, it's necessary when you're going up against bullet sponges in the end game.

[Thaumatos]

Pff. My serration mod isn't maxed (135%) and gave me insane damage for the Grakata (why is that hard to type for everyone now? -_-). Multishot isn't necessary to compete... wait, compete with who?

 

Serration is a straight damage increase that is just as effective on any weapon as it is on the Grak (yes I shortened it...deal).

 

The crit damage and crit chances of all weapons vary to unknown degrees and are extremely low.  Increasing them at the miniscule amount allowable has an effectve cost greater than other damage mods.

 

My point is that even the crit-heavy weapons have their crit outshined by multishot.  So which one is it, is multishot OP or is crit UP?

 

 

Multishot isn't OP, when you're going up against enemies twice your level you will still struggle to defeat them on your own.

 

So multishot isn't necessary, yet now you need it because you struggle to beat lvl 60 enemies even with it equipped...what?  Most frames in this game have AoEs that just eat everything alive in the area or reduce their effectiveness so much that you don't even care what level they are.  You're actually supposed to use those.  Hell, when I'm soloing in Pluto my Gorgon eats massive amounts of lvl 55 Corpus easily.  That's mostly due to multishot.  The game isn't even difficult with that mod on.

 

More to the point, you just went from multishot being 'meh' to it being a physical need that likens to food and water.  Huh?

 

 

This game is and always has been about teamwork. Just because someone doesn't have multishot or a potato doesn't mean that they are unable to help out their friends in battle. The only thing you brought attention to with your post is that the grataka is better than most people initially believed, and that the boost wasn't exactly necessary (but entirely welcome).

 

You were just saying how people struggle without multishot.  Now people are just fine without it.  I give up.

 

Wait, there's more: 

 

The boosts from our mods are entirely necessary when going up against enemies that are double and triple our warframes level.

 

Wow.  And back again.  Also, outside of defense missions at an extremely high levels, where are the level 90 mobs at?  I'd like to fight some of those.

 

The Grataka does just fine against level ten enemies at level ten. It does just fine against level twenty enemies at level twenty. And that is how the game is supposed to be. When you're beating the crap out of van hek for the twentieth time, it's nice to have multishot to make the battle go by a little bit faster. It's not OP, it's necessary when you're going up against bullet sponges in the end game.

 

 Actually, no.  All unmodded weaponry makes things exceedingly difficult past level 10.  Now that the levels you get don't add anything but mod space, you're expected to mod things out.

 

You're stacking end-game tier mods and then comparing them to the average player. The average player isn't that far ahead in the game.

 

What does a type of player have to do with an in-game item that can be found as early as level 0?  I think you've chosen the wrong adjective here.  The "average" player will max out frames and weapons as will the "casual" and the "harcore".  At least, I certainly hope you don't think you're "hardcore" if you have multishot.  That's laughable.

 

I'm comparing two, fully ranked, damage-oriented mods to one and showing how the one is simply better than the two in both cost and effectiveness.  Even on a weapon that is being designed to favor the two mods over others.

 

What this boils down to is an "I like my multishot, don't nerf it" post.  Well they got around to it with shotguns.  They'll figure this one out too.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Thaumatos

[Zh40]

By "on their own" I was referring to solo vs team. I wasn't referring to the multishot mod. However I was stating that even with multishot people who solo will inevitably have trouble facing said high powered enemies.

Crit is great on the right weapons, such as snipetron, latron, now grataka, dual viper, kraken, etc etc.. and is cheaper overall to rank than multishot. 

When I was referring to a level 20 grataka vs level 20 enemies I was talking about one with mods that fit its power (20 or 40, depending on if potato'd, even if 20 that's plenty for low power damage and elements). 

I'm just straight up talking about regular situations. Not end-game situations. I'm the one saying that multi-shot is only end-game tier because first off, it's bloody hard to find. Its expensive to fuse with cores, and since we don't get much more than common 3 and uncommon 5 mods, it has been made very difficult to level for anyone who hasnt been playing for a long time (i.e. not the average player.) 

Rank 60 mobs are in pluto (end game) and rank 90 mobs are also in pluto around wave 15-20 (not that high of waves, relatively.) 

Essentially what I'm saying is that it has already been nerfed extensively (I don't think you were around for 200%+ multishot, which could be acheived at no cost to anyone by simply grinding for it.) 
It is balanced by having it be expensive to fuse, difficult to max quickly, and hard to find in general. That is why it is not OP. 

[WarNEf]

+1 Zh40

 

multishot is NOT op from its.. 

 

... hard to find, expensive to fuse with cores, difficult to max quickly ...

... it has already been nerfed extensively

 

anyway, I suggest to set up multishot mods when you can do it (20+ weapon rank or 10+ with potato) to max weapon potential

 

its not strange, that people saying about "OPs" warframes, weapons, mods.. are mostly gold members/founders and thay even don't know what the weapon has to be in its core (without potato and overfilled mods)

[Qb3rt]

I thought everyone was aware how powerful multishot is?

Edited April 29, 2013 by Qb3rt