Critical Chance Mods Are Effectively Useless

[Soulfighter]

its not effective because it dosent reliably increase damage over other mods.

 

we weren't discussing that, we were discussing the effectiveness of crit chance depending on the type of weapon, basically the more bullets you fire the more "roll" there will to determine if it's a crit or not, the more roll there is, the more effective the crit chance stat is because statistics become truer when the rolls tend to infinity.

 

If you take a lex and a dual viper to a boss fight with the same crit chance mod, it'll be more effective on the dual viper.  If you compare both on a length of 100 hours, the difference won't be noticable.

[Geuax]

we weren't discussing that, we were discussing the effectiveness of crit chance depending on the type of weapon, basically the more bullets you fire the more "roll" there will to determine if it's a crit or not, the more roll there is, the more effective the crit chance stat is because statistics become truer when the rolls tend to infinity.

 

If you take a lex and a dual viper to a boss fight with the same crit chance mod, it'll be more effective on the dual viper.  If you compare both on a length of 100 hours, the difference won't be noticable.

statistical variance is not effeminacy, stop talking out of your butt.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Geuax

[Soulfighter]

statistical variance is not effeminacy, stop talking out of your butt.

effeminacy ? yeah i know statistical variance doesn't wear lipstick and have limp wrists, what's your point ?

[Geuax]

effeminacy ? yeah i know statistical variance doesn't wear lipstick and have limp wrists, what's your point ?

 sorry your badness blinded my spelling. but it cant blind math.

[Webly]

Updated the op.

[Mietz]

Your math is all wrong

 

You forget a few things DPS is damage per second so reload speed actualy applies there that loweres the effective dps that speed trigger adds to your gun. Speed trigger is also in a diffrent spot of the formula than what multishot would cover its best to not touch speed trigger and add more points armor pen.

Seration adds to base damage and elemental damage scales off post seration damage. Multishot and crit scale after elemental. Fire rate scales after all that.

 

Braton Vanilla DPS: (20*9.4) + ((20*1.5)*0.075) = 190.25 is good. The fire rate should be at the right of the equation but it doesn't have any order of operations problems yet.

 

Now lets do it properly (Base* (1 +serration)) *(1+ sum of elemental damage) *(1+crit) * (1+multishot) * rate. the reason for all the 1+ in there is to keep the formula working properly when you have a 0 flat multiplitying 0 multishot times damage does 0 if you dont keep the 1 in there for base.

(20*1 +1.69) *(1+(.9+.9+.9)) (1+(1.5*.075) *(1+.9) *9.4

53.8 damage per bullet 145 elemental damage

199.6 damage per bullet *crit rate * multi * rate

222 damage average after crits

421.9 damage after multi

3965.9 dps

 

Well crap i forgot the piercing hit wthis is .4 more elemental damage

(20*1 +1.69) *(1+(.9+.9+.9+.4)) (1+(1.5*.075) *(1+.9) *9.4

4371 dps with the point strike

 

Lets throw those 3 points in to point strike yes its higher than what rifle mods allow but its just to make the numbers simplier. Speed trigger really messes with the calculations way more than needed.

 

(20*1 +1.69) *(1+(.9+.9+.9+.7)) (1+(1.5*(.075 *(1+1.5))) *(1+.0) *9.4

53.8 bullet damage 182.9 elemental

238 per bullet after elemental

304 damage average after crits

304 due to 0 multishot

 

2857.6 dps

 

Multishot is by far the best damage per shot buff now If its better dps wise you have to take into account combat time. Enemy hp and max ammo and reload speeds. Remember 0 ammo means 0 dps if you finish before you run out of ammo then ammo effency is no longer an issue and speed trigger starts to look good for dps. If theres a point of out of ammo then it loses effectiveness as it doesn't increase total damage done

 

oops typo

 

How do you know elemental damage, serration and is applied to a bullet cumulatively and then operated on with crit/multishot?

 

Every shooty lootnboot game I know calculates crit separately for damage modifiers. Example: In Borderlands elemental crits, its what made elemental weapons so incredibly OP in that game.

 

i.e. my assumption was that crit is calculated separately for every damage mod. That fire can crit by itself, cryo can crit by itself, electric can crit by itself, etc.

 

You treat everything cumulatively as one big chunk of damage (bullet) and then add multishot/crit as the last operation and I question if that is true.

 

Do we have evidence which way the crit is calculated in WF?

 

PS: reload speed only affects sustained DPS, my calculations are entirely theoretical for a braton vandal with infinite ammo and clip, not to mention with a rate of 9.4 and a clip of 45 you can fire for ~4.7 seconds without reloading so the discussion is entirely moot. You would be right with a gun that has a higher rate than magazine size where i cant get the *per second* out of the calculation due to low temporal granularity.

 

PPS: I have an error in my calculations where the critdmg multiplier isn't added to every mod operation (a typing oversight in excel, it was 4am) so the numerical values are indeed higher and more in line with yours, but since I forgot that in every operation I made, it still ends up being the same % difference at the end (0.86).

 

As long as you can show (mathematically, video, dev statement etc. pp.) that damage mods don't crit separately, I will accept your calculations.

What we essentially need is either a target dummy to reverse engineer the mat applied, or the devs need to tell us their equations for damage calculation.

Right now we are in the dark.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Mietz

[TehJumpingJawa]

or the devs need to tell us their equations for damage calculation.

Right now we are in the dark.

 

Better still if the weapons told you how much base/elemental/crit/charge damage they dealt as part of the load-out UI.

 

Though looking at how broken the UI is, I feel that might be somewhat of a pipe dream.

[Mietz]

Better still if the weapons told you how much base/elemental/crit/charge damage they dealt as part of the load-out UI.

 

Though looking at how broken the UI is, I feel that might be somewhat of a pipe dream.

 

The UI needs so much work in this game its completely crazy.

 

Optimally the UI should show you the current DPS of the weapon anyways, removing the trial and error with needing to try it out first and eyeball it if S#&$ dies faster with this or that combination.

[Geuax]

if you allowed elemental damage to crit you would get a less than 84.72 % increse,( that the benefit of crit squared), much much closer but still less than the worse multishot vs the best crit mods on a imaginary gun with the best know crit stats

 

 

 

 edit:cant type and dress

Edited April 30, 2013 by Geuax

[Qb3rt]

Mietz you need to multiply non-crit damage by the non-crit% chance. I noticed you were leaving that out and keeping a 100% non-crit chance.

 

e.g. -- equation for 20% crit rate weapon with base 100 damage, 5.0 fire rate, and 200% crit damage multipler =

 

(100)*(5.0)*(0.8) + 100*(5.0)*(0.2)*(2.0)

Edited April 30, 2013 by Qb3rt

[Meltina]

Elemental damage can crit armor pen crit for 1.8k all the time with a snipetron with only an armor pen mod. Corpus crewmen take 20x damage from armor pen and 0 damage from normal damage. So either each elemental can crit indivduialy or physical damage crits and elemental scales off that damage. Either way it averages to the same dps. If you ever tested a multishot mod you would notice you get 2 bullets and each bullet can crit and do elemental damage. So Multishot scales off post elemental damage. Multishot is broken as a damage mod because it is applied after other damage mods.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/34956-weapon-stats-and-enemies-101/ Has where someone test and mathed out the armor and scaling for every enemy.

 

In reality the elemental damage is calculated indivualy because of elemental resistances.

The shot is split up in multiple pieces its base damage + serration and each elemental damage as its own packet of damage. With some testing we can test if the elemental damage its scaled off the crit damage of a shot or if the elemental has an indivtual crit. I never seen an elemental do more damage than a normal shot before armor so it is highly likley elemental does not get double crit scaling.

If you test a shot does one normal damage hit one elemental damage hit for each elementals. If you use a multishot you get 2 normal damage hits and 2 damage for each elemental. Be sure your testing on an enemy with enough hp to survive because it stops displaying damage after the enemy dies.

 

A level 1 powerfist takes normal damage from everything so you can shoot them in a chest to check if elemental scales off serration damage or base. These tests were done before the massive mod revamp so I could be wrong if it was changed in a patch. Note he will mostlikley die before the multishot damage will register but you can test that by putting an elemental mod on a single shot weapon and seeing 4 damage numbers pop up when multishot triggers.

 

>PS: reload speed only affects sustained DPS, my calculations are entirely theoretical for a braton vandal with infinite ammo and clip, not to mention with a rate of 9.4 and a clip of 45 you can fire for ~4.7 seconds without reloading so the discussion is entirely moot. You would be right with a gun that has a higher rate than magazine size where i cant get the *per second* out of the calculation due to low temporal granularity.

 

You added attack speed to the second weapon making the clip run out faster your doing dps calcuations on diffrent time frames with speed trigger on one and not on the other. 4.7 seconds for the first gun and ~3.2 seconds for the second.

 

Edit: Apparently they reposted and addeded the first post they had more data from the older post which showed serration applied and increased elemental damage before. It also is missing the enemy armor scaling by level.

 

P.S. tested the head shot damage with a baton with seration 120% and 60% armor piercing. Base damage for 17. 37.4 after seration. 22.4 armor piercing damage. 448 to a corpus head. I did 440 damage.

We can tell that the game now rounds down. 37 damage after serration mod. 22 damage is armor piercing and the 440 head shot damage matches. The 0 normal damage and the 20x modifer for armor piercing matches for damage. If you wish to test another weapon and come to the same result then we know the head shot formula for corpus crewmen is correct and the serration is applied before elemental damage.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Meltina