AberforthBrixby Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) This is getting ridiculous. I understand that games like LoL, DOTA, and TF2 also use a cash shop mechanic, but it is completely ignorant to put Warframe on the same playing field as any of those titles in terms of well, anything really. Marketing, exposure, playerbase, funding, dev team, everything. I mean come on. Blizzard? Valve? How can any of you really think that DE can produce on the same terms as studios like that? People here say "this game should use a paid cosmetic cash shop system like (insert above title) if they want to survive" But that's stupid. Those games don't survive because of their cash shops. Their cash shops survive because of the games they are attached to. TF2 had a MASSIVE playerbase before its cash shop was even introduced, with all of its steam hype, preorder bonuses attached to other games, players from TF classic etc. That game is huge and successful and never even needed a cash shop to survive, that was simply icing on the cake. LoL and DOTA not only have heavy hitter dev teams backing them, but they are associated with Major League Gaming, giving them an incredible amount of market exposure basically for free. People are jumping in to these games hoping to be the next pro regardless of the cash shop mechanics. That was never part of its appeal to bring people in, it simply makes the ride more entertaining once you're on it. Nobody ever looked at those games and said "I want to play that game because of it's well balanced payment model." It doesn't even need its cash shop once again in order to stay afloat as a result of what it has going for it already. Warframe has no massive dev team. It doesn't have a huge marketing campaign. It is not a part of any E-sport program. It does not have a huge AAA budget backed by EA or Activision. A small amount of exposure and its rinky-dink cash shop is literally all it has going for it. Acting like it can survive on the same cash shop principles as games that have the above stated is simply silly and ignorant. Those games would survive regardless of their cash shop. Warframe is the opposite. It doesn't have nearly the required playerbase to make a purely cosmetic cash shop work. Its simple economics. So seriously, think a bit before you go about making a statement like "Look at LoL's cash shop, no wonder it's so popular. Warframe should copy that." Edited May 2, 2013 by AberforthBrixby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninjaman999 Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) People wana complain like hell and get a completely free game. One of the problems with F2P. It feeds into the entitlement issue gamers usually have.And when you consider how this game handles the need for cash compared to other games, all you need is a 20 for some slots and potatoes and you have at least 50 hours of gaming goodness with little limitation. Buying the weapons and lvling/getting cred fasters are optional and not necessary at all which is the beauty of it. You want frames? Earn the bastards. Want weapons? Earn the bastards. You want to use them all at full power? Toss the dev a fiver or more as a thank you. The earning of weapons and stuff in itself is fun and gives a sense of progression that many F2P games lack IMO and I feel very un-limited compared to other F2P games I've tryed thus far.The only other F2P game that I loved as much as Warframe was Tribes Ascend :3 Edited May 2, 2013 by Ninjaman999 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberforthBrixby Posted May 2, 2013 Author Share Posted May 2, 2013 I just don't understand how someone who pays absolutely nothing thinks they deserve the same amount of game as someone who pays 50$ dollars for it. Whats next? The only difference between a 5 star restaurant and a homeless soup kitchen should be the quality of the dining room? Food should be the same? What a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranteamo Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Yes! LoL created with pro leagues behind it and with 30kk active player! That game didn't started with a few people in closed beta, the players were just there. But yeah, as long as a not paying player can obtain almost all items I'm fine with plat warframes/weapons. When I need new slots I will pay, but buying frames/weapons would ruin the game for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninjaman999 Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I just don't understand how someone who pays absolutely nothing thinks they deserve the same amount of game as someone who pays 50$ dollars for it. Whats next? The only difference between a 5 star restaurant and a homeless soup kitchen should be the quality of the dining room? Food should be the same? What a joke. "Slow Claps" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolluxCaptorTA Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) Of course everyone on here is a Master. I agree entirely, and am a Hunter myself, it just seems likely someone's going to accuse all of us of hypocrisy soon. Edit: Ranteamo for the win! Didn't notice him, but a non Founder who agrees. Edited May 2, 2013 by SolluxCaptorTA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtorma Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 This is getting ridiculous. I understand that games like LoL, DOTA, and TF2 also use a cash shop mechanic, but it is completely ignorant to put Warframe on the same playing field as any of those titles in terms of well, anything really. Marketing, exposure, playerbase, funding, dev team, everything. I mean come on. Blizzard? Valve? How can any of you really think that DE can produce on the same terms as studios like that? People here say "this game should use a paid cosmetic cash shop system like (insert above title) if they want to survive" But that's stupid. Those games don't survive because of their cash shops. Their cash shops survive because of the games they are attached to. TF2 had a MASSIVE playerbase before its cash shop was even introduced, with all of its steam hype, preorder bonuses attached to other games, players from TF classic etc. That game is huge and successful and never even needed a cash shop to survive, that was simply icing on the cake. LoL and DOTA not only have heavy hitter dev teams backing them, but they are associated with Major League Gaming, giving them an incredible amount of market exposure basically for free. People are jumping in to these games hoping to be the next pro regardless of the cash shop mechanics. That was never part of its appeal to bring people in, it simply makes the ride more entertaining once you're on it. Nobody ever looked at those games and said "I want to play that game because of it's well balanced payment model." It doesn't even need its cash shop once again in order to stay afloat as a result of what it has going for it already. Warframe has no massive dev team. It doesn't have a huge marketing campaign. It is not a part of any E-sport program. It does not have a huge AAA budget backed by EA or Activision. A small amount of exposure and its rinky-dink cash shop is literally all it has going for it. Acting like it can survive on the same cash shop principles as games that have the above stated is simply silly and ignorant. Those games would survive regardless of their cash shop. Warframe is the opposite. So seriously, think a bit before you go about making a statement like "Look at LoL's cash shop, no wonder it's so popular. Warframe should copy that." This is sort of funny. Yo Warframe, your cash shop is rinky dink! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argoms Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) Free player agreeing here ^^ I think warframe may be in that weird zone where it's clearly not a low budget, crappy pay2win wow clone, but it's definitely nowhere as big or long-running as something like tf2, so people who don't know it jump to either one side or the other. Edited May 2, 2013 by Argoms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtorma Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I just don't understand how someone who pays absolutely nothing thinks they deserve the same amount of game as someone who pays 50$ dollars for it. Whats next? The only difference between a 5 star restaurant and a homeless soup kitchen should be the quality of the dining room? Food should be the same? What a joke. Are you equating free to play players with poor people who eat in soup kitchens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberforthBrixby Posted May 2, 2013 Author Share Posted May 2, 2013 This is sort of funny. Yo Warframe, your cash shop is rinky dink! No joke, I may be a founder but I'm not going to act like the current cash shop is actually good. There is a huge disparity between warframe plat costs and it just isn't balanced whatsoever. However, that STYLE of cash shop is necessary for the survival of the game, the individual numbers just need work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaymoreNo47 Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Lol is not free. Im a diamond rank 2 player btw. No it is not free. If you want to compete and dont want to spend a year and a half getting a decent account be prepared to sink some money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAwGi Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Yeah! AAA titles cost at most $60, not ... oh wait ... cough *$250* cough cough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katakuna Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Are you equating free to play players with poor people who eat in soup kitchens? He's talking about the games, not the players. It's not the nicest analogy, but in reality, it rings true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AneiDoru Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Sir, Blizzard did not make LoL, Riot did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberforthBrixby Posted May 2, 2013 Author Share Posted May 2, 2013 Are you equating free to play players with poor people who eat in soup kitchens? No, but it's definitely headed towards that direction if the F2P gaming community in general doesn't sort out it's priorities. It's simply baffling to expect something that took hundreds of hours of work and hundreds of thousands of dollars for no more than the time it takes to download and install it. If a company chooses to OFFER such a product for free, than if anything gratitude is in order for they could simply choose to offer nothing. Instead, gratitude is sidelined in favor of fervent whining that those who pay for their product have too much of an "advantage" however artificial it may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argoms Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Anei, a lot of (former) blizzard employees are part of the lol dev team. Yeah! AAA titles cost at most $60, not ... oh wait ... cough *$250* cough cough Well to be fair, with day 1 dlc, potential subscsription fees, and whatever you equate the value of your eternal servitude to, may even out to about $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberforthBrixby Posted May 2, 2013 Author Share Posted May 2, 2013 Sir, Blizzard did not make LoL, Riot did. No, blizzard created the framework and engine on which DOTA is ran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpartanChief1170 Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Definitely in agreement here. Another point that wasn't touched on is that LoL and TF2 have a huge head start on Warframe so comparing their first months with Warframes first months would be a "more fair" comparison (still comparing apples to oranges so its still not really fair). For LoL it was released in October of 2009 so they have had 4 years to get to the point where they are an MLG game. Also the pay to win argument for this game is just sad. How is it pay to win in a PvE game where you can get everything in the game by playing more...? The only thing you are paying to win against is your own XP bar. After buying Grand Master I have a ton of platinum and I purposefully don't spend it so I can enjoy the satisfaction of working for a frame. I do spend some on Potatoes and occasionally a weapon, but the way I see it I put in time at work to get that glaive. If i didn't have a full time job i would have more time to play to get it. (The alert happened while I was at work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cknives Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Lol is not free. Im a diamond rank 2 player btw. No it is not free. If you want to compete and dont want to spend a year and a half getting a decent account be prepared to sink some money. Really? So all of those booster guys with the bare minimum of champs carrying noobs up to plat/diamond must be godlike... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thingofmyth Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Are you equating free to play players with poor people who eat in soup kitchens? Why does it matter? It was obviously a metaphor that worked well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temporary Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Lol is not free. Im a diamond rank 2 player btw. No it is not free. If you want to compete and dont want to spend a year and a half getting a decent account be prepared to sink some money. Stating that it isn't free makes you look like an idiot, you can earn every champion in the game without spending a cent so you may want to rethink your statement... You chose to pay money for champions/skins because you wanted them now instead of earning them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtorma Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 This post, and the subsequent good feedback it is recieving kind of makes me feel like a second class citizen, when the game actually invited me to be here, in whatever capacity I felt to help them through thier open beta period. I have given (what I thought) was good, constructive feedback on how I believe the game could get better, what I felt the game lacked, and how I believe they can appeal to a larger playerbase. What is funny is that I never even thought that the people who have invested looked down on those who havent decided yet to the extent that I have learned they do in this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberforthBrixby Posted May 2, 2013 Author Share Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) This post, and the subsequent good feedback it is recieving kind of makes me feel like a second class citizen, when the game actually invited me to be here, in whatever capacity I felt to help them through thier open beta period. I have given (what I thought) was good, constructive feedback on how I believe the game could get better, what I felt the game lacked, and how I believe they can appeal to a larger playerbase. What is funny is that I never even thought that the people who have invested looked down on those who havent decided yet to the extent that I have learned they do in this post. Every single one of us appreciates the hard work every player puts in to making this game more enjoyable for everyone, please do not misunderstand us. The problem is not you in any way whatsoever. It is in fact the opposite. It is the F2P players who look down upon us for investing in the game, acting like investment should only provide minimal benefits and that it should provide nothing to entice players to spend on the game, therefore ensuring it's longevity. These people don't realize that they are actively seeking the destruction of a game we all like. You and many others are contributing in your own way and it is also absolutely necessary, but players who not only do not wish to spend money on the game, but also actively encourage a system that inhibits ANY money from being spent on the game, are nothing short of toxic. I want people to play this game, free or otherwise, but I also want people to realize that statistically speaking, this game can not survive on a cosmetic cash shop model. Playing free is fine, acting like spending money on this game is the devil is not. The people you see saying that this game needs to change its cash shop format either simply do not understand game economics, or are simply self serving, wanting to change things for personal benefit, not because they want the game to succeed in the long run. I guarantee you, many of the people wanting free slots, free colors, free frames, free whatever, want it because they simply do not want to pay, not because they think that business model will actually help the game and ALL of its players. Edited May 2, 2013 by AberforthBrixby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cknives Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 What is funny is that I never even thought that the people who have invested looked down on those who havent decided yet to the extent that I have learned they do in this post. Usualy thats not the case. Its only when they get special status like "VIP" or "Founder" that people turn into $&*^s who think they are better than others because they spend 250$ on a free video game. The normal intelligent crowd that spends 10-20$ on some skins or weapon packs generaly dont look down on F2Ps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberforthBrixby Posted May 2, 2013 Author Share Posted May 2, 2013 Usualy thats not the case. Its only when they get special status like "VIP" or "Founder" that people turn into $&*^s who think they are better than others because they spend 250$ on a free video game. The normal intelligent crowd that spends 10-20$ on some skins or weapon packs generaly dont look down on F2Ps. Making vague generalizations about a whole group of people does absolutely nothing to reinforce your point. The whole point of this thread was meant to use verifiable, hard evidence from the gaming industry and its revenue generation to point out that copying high budget titles will not ensure the games success. It isn't supposed to be free players vs paid players. Both are necessary. I've never thought of free players as below me. In game, I can't tell who has paid and who hasn't, I only care if you can help me complete the objective and have fun. There are a problem group of people that light needs to be shed on, and its the naysayers that refuse to look at evidence and continue to demand that this game pander more and more to a business model that will result in the game going belly up in less than a year. If you are going to contribute to the thread, please use logic and statistics whenever possible. Making statements like VIPS are $&*^s helps nobody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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