Hydroid: An Exhaustive Review

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

I just cannot stay put when I see someone calling Tentacle Swarm an amazing CC. It's good (maybe even amazing) comparing to Tornado, yeah. But, please, look at other frames' CC abilities:

- Bastille and Vortex — unquestionably better at CC;

- Radial Disarm — not even close;

- M.Prime — Tentacle Swarm is a joke compared to this;

- Chaos — yeah, right;

These are truly amazing CC abilities.

 

Ok, let's look at "not amazing, but very good" category then:

- Radial Blind — LoS hurts a bit, but overall much better than Tentacle Swarm;

- Rhino Stomp — cannot be recasted, but much more reliable than Tentacles;

- Prism — more damage, more control over ability and blinded enemy is better than wildly swinging one.

 

Now "kinda bad, but sometimes useful":

- Reckoning — radiation procs and blind is not SO reliable, but works till certain degree;

- Terrify — good to clear comm-tower area in interception or just "oh-S#&$-button";

- Tornado — can stall enemies and that's it.

 

It's obvious, that Tentacle Swarm falls in the last category — it's on par with Reckoning, Terrify and Tornado in terms on CC. And it's nowhere near "amazing".

 

And there goes a big problem: Hydroid have nothing to compensate mediocre CC. He got semi-useless 1st ability, which is not really a problem for a 1st ability. Tidal Surge would be good if it was 1st ability (like Slash Dash or Rhino Charge), but overall it's not the best. Undertow is extremely boring afk-ability.

 

So, Hydroid is bad. Really bad. I'd say he's the worst frame atm. Even Ember is better. Hek even Limbo is better.

 

Well, I appreciate your opinion.

 

No doubt that there are other people with good CC, and some even better. Still, I'm not doing a comparison, or a contrast essay here. I'm reviewing one Warframe, in light of the Warframes own merits/flaws.

 

I hesitate to compare two frames to one another, as they aren't meant to serve the same purpose. They all have different functions. You may not have figured out their purpose, as of yet, but it will come in time.

 

I can see what you were expecting from CC, and I can see how he fell short for you. He is an extremely tactical frame, with a specialty in tying up entrances, choke points, or even squads out in the open. I wonder if you read the whole post, as I provide the value of his his abilities, as I use them. Worst frame? As long as you identify the specialty of a frame, and work with it, you will do well with any frame. I wouldn't say that there is a such thing as even a bad frame, and I'd say that, before the Utility Slot, the frames were fairly well balanced. I'm not sure why you have a low opinion of Ember and Limbo, using them as examples to show how bad you think Hydroid is, but they aren't bad either. Their goodness requires a player to use them the way they are intended.

Edited July 26, 2015 by (PS4)Fenrushak

[AlienOvermind]

Well, I appreciate your opinion.

 

No doubt that there are other people with good CC, and some even better. Still, I'm not doing a comparison, or a contrast essay here. I'm reviewing one Warframe, in light of the Warframes own merits/flaws.

 

I hesitate to compare two frames to one another, as they aren't meant to serve the same purpose. They all have different functions. You may not have figured out their purpose, as of yet, but it will come in time.

 

I can see what you were expecting from CC, and I can see how he fell short for you. He is an extremely tactical frame, with a specialty in tying up entrances, choke points, or even squads out in the open. I wonder if you read the whole post, as I provide the value of his his abilities, as I use them. Worst frame? As long as you identify the specialty of a frame, and work with it, you will do well with any frame. I wouldn't say that there is a such thing as even a bad frame, and I'd say that, before the Utility Slot, the frames were fairly well balanced. I'm not sure why you have a low opinion of Ember and Limbo, using them as examples to show how bad you think Hydroid is, but they aren't bad either. Their goodness requires a player to use them the way they are intended.

First about Limbo and Ember. I consider them worst along with Hydroid, yes. Limbo is too situational. He can be useful, he can be really useful, but still his usefulness is very limited (unlike Loki or Trinity for example, who can be useful in pretty much any team). Ember is somewhat fine, she can deal damage, she can stunlock with augmented WoF, but other frames do the same much better. There's pretty much no reason to use Ember over something else.

 

And Hydroid consists of things, that I hate.

First thing is another "desecrate", i.e. Pilfering Swarm — warframe powers should affect the gameplay itself, not fight with bad RNG, you are right to ignore that abomination in your review.

Second in non-interactive afk-abiility — Undertow. I believe that all abilities should be somewhat interactive. For example — Prism is a good one, you can steer that light orb, you can detonate it manually. Example of a bad ability is Sound Quake — you stunlock enemies, you stunlock yourself, i.e. ability forces the player to take boring role of bystander, who just stays still and does nothing. Undertow is the same — you are the pool of some liquid stuff and you just stay there doing nothing. That's extremely bad design. If you could move in pool-from and snatch enemies manually and slap other enemies by some tentacles, growing from the pool — this ability would have been good. But in it's current state it's terrible.

Third thing is "stalling-type" crowd control. I tend to think that crowd control should help the team to kill enemies. And in most cases it really does — you use Radial Blind and you can fire enemies without any distractions for some time. But then we have some abilities that doesn't actually help us to kill bad guys, but it just stall them. Like I said earlier it's Terrify, it's Tornado and Tentacle Swarm and even Undertow. This inferior type of CC is actually ok in some situations, so I don't think it should be removed / reworked. This type of crowd control may complement warframe's other skills. But! I think warframes should never be focused around this type of crowd control — and that is the flaw of Hydroid's CC.

 

And did I mention that Hydroid has two "1st skills"? Tidal Surge actually works like a "1st skill". Maybe like a good "1st skill". But one "1st skill" is enough, you know.

Edited July 26, 2015 by AlienOvermind

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

Limbo is too situational. 

 

 

This is kind of in the eye of the beholder. Limbo is only as situational as you need him to be. In Exterminates, he can casually walk through and kill them one at a time. In Captures, he breezes by the enemies. In Defenses, Cataclysm makes for a fantastic makeshift SnowGlobe. In Survival, he is the best support there is, and you can apply the same tactics as Exterminates. For Rescue, it's a breeze, as you can Banish the Rescue Target. He is the king of Interceptions: Only hacking the console will steal the Tower, and he can stand in the rift, slowly killing enemies off, only stopping to banish and kill someone that approaches the Consoles. 

 

I would say the situation is Warframe. He is a chess player. For my review of him, see here: 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/386351-limbo-an-exhaustive-review/

 

 

Ember is somewhat fine, she can deal damage, she can stunlock with augmented WoF, but other frames do the same much better. There's pretty much no reason to use Ember over something else.

 

Except that she is a CC queen, in addition to doing damage. In fact, she can better stunlock enemies with Accellerant, as it is a forced stun proc nearly on par with Banshees Silence. This goes without even mentioning FireBlast, which is a forced Knockdown with a massive range, and can even be upgraded to have a Panic Proc. 

 

I know she has her weaknesses, but she is amazing if you focus on her strengths. I prefer to remain optimistic when it comes to frames and their abilities and some would say that I do so even to a fault. Here is my review of Ember.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/391331-ember-an-exhaustive-review/

 

 

And Hydroid consists of things, that I hate.

 

Well, personal preference does not make a frame bad. It just means that the frame is not good for your playstyle. This is very understandable. When I began WF, I bought Volt right after the tutorial. Unfortunately, I let him define my playstyle too well, because when I got my second, Nekros, I kept comparing Nekros to Volt, and I didn't like him for it. When I stopped expecting a frame to fulfill the role I wanted it to, and went to letting the frame do what it does well, I noticed that every frame is really good, in their own right.

 

 

First thing is another "desecrate", i.e. Pilfering Swarm — warframe powers should affect the gameplay itself, not fight with bad RNG, you are right to ignore that abomination in your review.

 

We definitely agree here. I hate any power that promotes afk spam farming. Not only does it ruin how people play a frame, because all they have is loot on the brain, but other players begin to feel entitled to Pilfering Swarm whenever they see a Hydroid in the squad. TBH, I wrote this review before Pilfering Swarm came about. It's a tidbit old. 

 

 

Second in non-interactive afk-abiility — Undertow. I believe that all abilities should be somewhat interactive. For example — Prism is a good one, you can steer that light orb, you can detonate it manually. Example of a bad ability is Sound Quake — you stunlock enemies, you stunlock yourself, i.e. ability forces the player to take boring role of bystander, who just stays still and does nothing. Undertow is the same — you are the pool of some liquid stuff and you just stay there doing nothing. That's extremely bad design. If you could move in pool-from and snatch enemies manually and slap other enemies by some tentacles, growing from the pool — this ability would have been good. But in it's current state it's terrible.

 

Sound Quake is so strong that you stunlock the entire relevant battlefield. I've got several waves in Sechura without so much as seeing an enemy, just by using that. It's painfully boring, but it's incredibly useful for taking control of the battlefield.

 

In light of the gameplay changes, Undertow definitely need some love. I'd prefer it didn't drown enemies, so that you could maintain the stealth it provides. I would also say that you should be able to use it to bypass locked doors, and you ought to be able to move while using it.

 

 

And did I mention that Hydroid has two "1st skills"? Tidal Surge actually works like a "1st skill". Maybe like a good "1st skill". But one "1st skill" is enough, you know.

 

Because I resembles Slash Dash, Rhino Charge, and Tail Wind? Yeah, I guess so. I think the reason why it isn't a first skill is to get people to understand from the very beginning that the frames intended purpose is CC. 

 

I understand, and see what you are talking about, but I disagree about them being bad. It sounds like this is more of an issue of personal preference, and not with the frame. You disliking him is valid, but I wouldn't say it is a bad frame.

[AlienOvermind]

Sound Quake is so strong that you stunlock the entire relevant battlefield. I've got several waves in Sechura without so much as seeing an enemy, just by using that. It's painfully boring, but it's incredibly useful for taking control of the battlefield.

 

You kinda misunderstood me here. I never said Sound Quake is useless. When I said "bad ability" I meant bad gamedesign-wise — a "painfully boring" ability cannot be called good, even if it's useful.

 

 

And about this "Hydroid is not a bad frame" — it's just a matter of how name it. How do you call a CC-frame, that control crowds much worse than other CC-frames? Well, I know the answer — you call him "good and useful". And I call him "bad". The fact still the same — he's less effective than other CC-frames.

Edited July 27, 2015 by AlienOvermind

[Brosephelon]

 He got semi-useless 1st ability, which is not really a problem for a 1st ability.

 

Setting the rest aside as I do more or less agree with you about tentacle swarm, Hydroids barrage is great, its probably one of the best first abilities in game.  

 

Damage wise its irrelevant, but it makes infested defense nice and easy with a constant knockdown spam on a pod.  Its a cheap spammable aoe knockdown with literally infinite range.  Its not super useful vs non-infested, but its still decent when enemies cluster though we can say that about most aoe powers that don't have a 30m+ aoe.  

 

Tidal Surge is also fine, while I agree having it as a first ability would be nice for the cost reduction.  They've also made it decently better compared to Rhino Charge to make it worthwhile.  It has about triple the width of rhino charge, similar damage, goes further, and knocks down enemies hit.  It also drags loot you pass over with you which is nice.  Frankly I'd rather have barrage as the first ability as is because it helps it be so spam friendly where i don't need to surge 24/7.  

 

Undertow is silly, but also good.  The big deal with undertow is NOT damage, the damage is pointless.  Instead it gives you a breather, oh you are getting hurt?  become a puddle regen up, and go back to doing stuff.  If it also demolished enemies while doing that it would be insane.  That said the ability to move the puddle around with a better camera view would be nice.  Realistically you use it for a few seconds to get back to full, not to turn into a puddle and afk for a day.

 

Tentacle Swarm, visually the ability is nice, though I generally agree with you.  In terms of CC its just lack luster, its pretty solid CC against low enemy numbers but sorta meh against loads of dudes.  

 

Overall Hydroid works well for missions with static points like defense, intercept, excavation, etc.  Hes surprisingly durable for a CC focused frame (nyx, vauban, etc are all pretty paper-ish).  His CC is on the weaker side of things, but he makes up for this in variety of CC options to often have a viable tool for whatever situation you might face.  I think one of Hydroids big strengths is that he doesn't have a "psy bolts" skill that is just pointless/useless.  All his abilities have some crowd control to it, he has multiple "get out of jail free" options, he has solid augments, and in general is just a decent frame.  I dislike how pilfering swarm has shoehorned him into descrate2.0 to some degree but before that and discounting that hes a fun flexible CC frame.  

[AlienOvermind]

Okay, I give up, enjoy your Hydroid, but be aware! I'm still gonna complain about him being bad until the end of time he get a rework.

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

Okay, I give up, enjoy your Hydroid, but be aware! I'm still gonna complain about him being bad until the end of time he get a rework.

 

I get what you are saying. I appreciate the clarity provided in the previous comment of yours as well, and apologize for misunderstanding you. As for CC, I would say that he excels. He just does it differently than others, and it is supplemented with damage and even stealth. Certainly if you want to just lay down some CC in the middle of a room like Bastille, then you wont like him. Vauban is CC for dummies, IMO, whereas Hydroid is more about controlling the flow of enemies. The reason I usually provide a loadout, instead of just a build, is because certain weapons will definitely go better with certain frames than others. For instance, I love Hydroids own Attica, in tandem with Thunderbolt. When enemies get tied up in his tight CC, the blast will quickly finish them, or he can tie down a third choke point with KD.

 

No doubt: To each his own, however I would say that a frame only becomes bad when we try to make it fulfill a role it was never intended to, but when we play a frame according to their strengths, we will understand better, what makes them awesome. Its for this reason that I will never use Rhino for Stealth missions, or Limbo on Sabotage missions. They just aren't really built for it, you know?

[ironman90na]

Reading the previous posts, about his 3rd ability. "Stealth" it's not the name of the game for this frame. I don't know why you keep mentioning his stealth potential, because it's clearly not designed with stealth in mind.

 

In the light of the recent update 17 and the sea-level tileset, i'd like to see his undertow as a 4th ability, with a larger radius and having sharks and piranhas in it, to make for a excelent CC ability as well as damage dealer. he doesn't need 2 1st abilities (tentacle swarm/tempest barrage? i dont recall the name)

 

So as far as i see it here's how his skillset should be: 

 

1st ability: tempest barrage - it's a good 1st ability, would be more useful with an augument mod like "hold fire", so you cast it (maybe it lasts 10 secs, you recast it and it stops so you can focus fire in another location)

 

2nd ability: tidal surge - fine as it is, because it grants you movement and invulnerability

 

3rd ability: tentacle swarm - reducing said tentacles to only 1 tentacle (maybe 2) in a constant spinning action

 

4th ability: undertow - as i said, wider radius, with shark in it to deal damage, as well as a CC ability.

[(PSN)CptCosmic]

hydroid is not bad imho, he just isnt a powerhouse like other easy mode warframes. Tidal Impunity also makes it a great shield suit, never worry about status effects again. hydroid just needs some quality of life fixes and then he will be much better:

1. Tentacle Swarm & Tempest Barrage should count one handed abilites and maybe have faster cast time.

2. Tidal Surge => let melee button cancel it. sometimes I want to land on top of my knocked down enemy instead of zooming past away landing on the other side of  the room

3. Undertow => remove submerging of enemies and let hydroid move slowly around while he submerges himself into water. the CC part is useless and annoying for the team. being able to move around also fixes curative undertow utility being too situational.

4. Tentacle Swarm & Tempest Barrage => let us cancel the abilities by using them again

5. Pilfering Swarm => should be change to as long as enemy is affected by tentacles instead of killed by them.

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

"Stealth" it's not the name of the game for this frame. I don't know why you keep mentioning his stealth potential, because it's clearly not designed with stealth in mind.

 

4th ability: undertow - as i said, wider radius, with shark in it to deal damage, as well as a CC ability.

 

Oh good idea. Then we would have another lazy afk ult that would steal kills, like Peacemaker, only slower, and it would require that they come to you.

 

Damage is not his game either. It takes a Blind Rage to make Pilfering Swarm worth equipping. Sure, you can sit there and wait around for people to die, but it will be a painfully slow process that wouldn't work in a squad. 

 

This is a CC frame, and would be better complemented by Stealth than damage. Stealth, Mobility, and CC. Just like Loki. 

 

The Shark addition assuming it dealt enough damage to make any kind of difference, would stretch what is required to make all four of his powers useful. As it is, you can make a perfectly viable build without Power Strength. 

 

I say stealth for a few reasons. First off, it's kind of a fan favorite idea that Undertow become mobile. Second, the damage on all of his powers is fairly pitiful, and heading toward damage on one of his powers would spread his builds thin. Third, even in his power profile from Warframe, his Undertow is spoken of as a stealth power. Fourth, the drowning aspect simply couldn't kill anybody without an AFK build, which would only slow gameplay down. Fifth, we need more stealth capable frames, with the expansion of Spy missions and Stealth as a whole; since many powers we have on most frames alert enemies. 

 

You propose that we make him more difficult to mod for. I propose we give one of his powers a straight buff, while simultaneously expanding the utility of the frame as a whole.

[ironman90na]

i get what you're saying, and my idea was to make 1 of his most useless ability "in theme" with the sea level update 17 (i mean is he or is he not the terror of the sea?) and not focus around damage, but cc (the sharks and sea monster justify the fact that they simply disappear and take drowning damage). tentacle swarm with a damage build does 2k damage on Akkad - Eris every time the tentacles hit (ofc when there's an ancient around the damage drops dramatically but not only for the ability, but also weapons) so the problem is not the damage, the problem is the reliability of the damage; the tentacles move in a random manner, making it very unreliable, because unlike his first ability (tempest barrage), the enemies get thrown around at random, making them almost impossible to shoot at.

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

tentacle swarm with a damage build does 2k damage on Akkad

 

This is great and all, on paper only. 2k damage, on a Hydroid, would require a Maximum Strength Build.

 

Lets do the math, and see what a crappy frame this would make him. 

 

In order to equip this he would have Negative Duration, from Transient Fortitude, Negative Efficiency, which would, of course, be countered with Fleeting Expertise, meaning even worse Duration. 

 

Congratulations: You have a 5 second Tentacle Swarm, and will be burning through so much energy to renew it, that it entirely wastes the effort you put into it.

 

But wait! There's more!

 

Not only does this make a crappy Tentacle Swarm, but it will also leave you with about a 2 second Tempest Barrage, a Tidal Surge that covers less ground than most melee attacks, and a still underwhelming Undertow. 

 

In addition, a Power Strength Build on Hydroid means he is only good for Defense missions, where he has someone to finance his renewal of Tentacle Swarm. In other words, it's a boring camper build that will do you no good in any mission where there isn't a convenient location where you know all of the enemies are going to be. 

 

Call me old fashioned, but I want a build that lets me have fun, and do more than stand still and farm loot. ;-)

Edited August 4, 2015 by (PS4)Fenrushak