Ai Aim Vs Distance

[hypnopotamus]

This isnt a bug, persay, nothing seems to be not working incorrectly, more of an error.  the ai accuracy for all enemies seems consistent with a mounted computer controlled weapon (with flawless programming and infinite processing speed, if it were a real world application).  The only enemy I see that as fitting for is a moa, as they are, in fact, supposed to be robots and before firing they stop and plant, essentially giving a stationary mounted weapon's platform.  The grineer, corpus crewman and ancients are another story.

Having no miss chance modifier on grineer firing full auto is incredibly frustrating.  Its not very noticeable at long distances because of projectile travel times (a good part of the game) and weapon inaccuracy.  However it seems that the closer I am the more accurate they get (consistent with a simulation of hardware inadequacy [that is, the gun only]) but there's no chance given to recoil to make them miss or to their being imperfect "humans".  That is to say that they, themselves, seem to have 0 miss chance with an infinite grip and the only reason they miss at range is because the gun can't fire as accurately as they can aim.  Same with the crewman, though its not as big an issue with them because they dont empty 30 rounds into me faster than I can get up if Im knocked down, not to mention corpus crewman are kind of chumps.  The ancients are similar because they have ranged "melee" that doesnt miss (because its within the 100% accuracy range for the ai) regardless of whether the target is moving tangent to the swing or stationary, compounding the already high (I feel too high, but thats another topic) chance of infested to stun/stagger lock a player.

currently the accuracy Im observing seems roughly the shape of y=1/x^2 where x is distance and y is accuracy (1/miss chance) and at some distance y0 miss chance becomes 0 (y is effectively infinite.  I know it APPROACHES infinite but the observable distance in game at which miss chance becomes 0 is very far from x=0).  At a guess I would revise that to y=L/x^2 where L is the enemy level, as they seem to get more accurate at further distances as level increases and y0 remains unchanged.  Instead I would propose a curve that resembles y=L(1/(x-1)^2-1/(x-1)^4) to accomodate "user" error for the firing ai and to kind of make it appear that recoil is playing a role.  If it were to allow for moving targets to increase miss chance perhaps y=(L-S/mL)(1/(x-1)^2-1(x-1)^4) where S is speed m is some mod so that mL allows enemy level to decrease the effect of a moving target on their accuracy (because, ofc, level determines skill and experience)

The curves are only approximations, of course, of what should be expected...or at least that I expect and that seems to be agreed upon by my fellow tenno that I play and discuss with.  I also respect that adding more, even if these seemingly simple formulas are exactly whats in the game, to each shot stresses the host machine that much more... but the single host p2p could use a change as well.  that, as with the crowd control ability of the infested, is another topic

[hypnopotamus]

for the graphs I was looking at the negative side.  They are symmetric about the x axis and I was focusing on the approach aspect, which is modeled on negative x (as you approach an enemy distance decreases and their accuracy increase, the opposite of x, if x is distance).  running away would be modeled on positive x in those graphs...or you could just use one side and move back and forth in your mind.  it was easier for me to think about it with the two symmetric sides.

additionally, pay attention to the shape, not the units.

Edited May 3, 2013 by hypnopotamus

[CorpusCrewman]

Ugh, I hate a Grineer's accuracy, I can run, jump, fly away from a wall, appear behind their backs from invisibility, fall in gorges and move on top after falling, shoot at them, beat, and to it without a difference, they shoot always getting precisely at you. *pfff*

[Adagio]

would love to see some of the DE staff to take a look at this thread, me too, have been thinking about this for a while, they are just too perfect as a being in the matter of aiming.

just for some add btw, before the U7 afaik, Ancients attack aren't as accurate as 100%, or at least, maybe, the travel time is slower, as of now, it's almost like an instant - confirmed this with clan mates that have been playing with me before the U7 comes out.
maybe it would be good to have some way to counter this, or having slower travel time like before (i prefer if there will be another way to counter / avoid it)

[hypnopotamus]

I won't lie, I started playing when I heard about this game being open beta so I didn't play pre 7.0  Being able to avoid an ancient's attack in some way other than not being close enough would be amazing (like what it sounds like adagio is describing).  my natural instinct when I see them wind up is either run in and start a charge attack to try to stagger them first or run perpendicular to try to make them miss.  doesn't matter I know they wont...I still try if Im that distance or engaged with something else and notice late so I try to run.

Edited May 3, 2013 by hypnopotamus

[Targan]

Making mobs' accuracy lower then 100% don't solve the problem fully. Also it's necessary to give to players a dodge chance while running, jumping and doing another acrobatics ( dodge running will depend from angle of movement between the target and player ). I've started theme about acrobatics in russian part of the forum, will see what it be. Maybe it will be necessary to duplicate this theme on english in full size.

[CorpusCrewman]

Im bump this and invite the DE for discuss about "whether it will be fixed".

[hypnopotamus]

Also it's necessary to give to players a dodge chance while running, jumping and doing another acrobatics

allowing mobs to have their accuracy lowered firing at a moving target is an ai thread discussion.  adding a passive dodge chance to players who are struck as an alternative or addition to that is not an ai issue and should be in gameplay feedback.

[HexCaliber]

You sir have entirely too much free time on your hands; when you start calculating accuracy curves for a game, you know its time to find something else to occupy yourself with. This is a game, reality has little or no place in a title based on space ninja who can run along walls and drop hundreds of feet without flinching.

 

TLDR; AI accuracy is fine as is, any worse and the game would offer no challenge at all.

Edited May 3, 2013 by HexCaliber

[lautalocos]

this is the reason why being loki or ash is only good to rush, which is something bad. seriously, i love loki, but the speed has no use to me if i cant dodge.

[hypnopotamus]

allowing mobs to have their accuracy lowered firing at a moving target is an ai thread discussion.  adding a passive dodge chance to players who are struck as an alternative or addition to that is not an ai issue and should be in gameplay feedback.

I didnt mean to sound that harsh targan.  I think you and I recognized the same flaw in the ai and you simply proposed a player stat addition to remedy and I was proposing an ai adjustment to remedy.  

[Haif]

I dunno about them being good shots.

When I'm getting shot at by a minigunner from across a big room, I can visibly SEE bullets whizzing over my head and such.

 

Enemy accuracy is FINE.

It's nothing a semi-competent player can't reasonably pull-off with a decent weapon anyways.

 

And besides, you shouldn't be face-tanking bullets against decently-leveled mobs to begin with, but rather you should be taking cover behind something and only popping out to shoot.

Unless you are a Rhino, in which case feel free to disregard everything I said.

 

My problem would be with the Ancients apparently heat-seeking tentacles, but even those can be dodged as long as you've put some freeze ammunition on them beforehand.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Haif

[hypnopotamus]

read the whole topic haif.  its not about grineer firing at you from across a large room, its about them firing at you close up and never missing (particularly lancers) and how the 0 miss chance range gets increased with enemy level.  higher level enemies can not miss you at a fairly decent range.  the reason the ancients never miss is because for them to be attacking you you are within the range where the ai can't miss.  the enemy accuracy is fine... at long range. this thread is not about long range