Picking Up Mods/resources - Why Not For Everyone?

[Enot83]

So if I'm a ways into a mission and I just now notice that two guys haven't left spawn, I should to leave the game.

 

Mmmm hmmm.

 

My point is that the OP's suggestion has too much potential for abuse as things are right now. The current system works fine; if players aren't there to contribute, they don't get the opportunity to pick up dropped loot. Add a kick system and it might make sense. Until then, I don't agree with the OP.

 

 

You havn't really kept up with things however, several times I've mentioned that adding some kind of radius, similar to the exp radius sharing would still reward players who are not doing the things you are mentioning.

 

Furthermore, perhaps the pickup range varies based on online and private games.  As I stated before, if you have a premade group there are missions who's conditions can be completed by going for multiple objectives and splitting your force to accomplish this.  In this case, being intelligent is penalized, as exp is not shared on the current system, and you must run to pickup drops.  The only real counter argument to this, is further enhancing level design that doesn't have levels designed like this, making that more of a moot point.  Driving back to the point of well now you have no reason to divide and conquer, so having a similar exp radius for pickups just makes sense.

 

Btw, as to the previous mentions of afk'ing, since you can run multiple desktops, multiple instances of the game, and treat a single input device as input for all of them, even the if you have 3 others sit afk just to multiple your loot is invalidated in that, you can potentially already find ways to do this.

 

I still do not see this flawed logic of, because someone else does something wrong, I want to not look for ways to make the system better.  Are you really supposing that there are so many rushers/afkers that will benefit?  You make it sound like only 5% of the player base is playing, and 95% are rushing or afk'ing etc.  I'd beg to differ that the over net benefit of something should be examined, the problems it brings to light can be addressed accordingly, but does not necessarily mean any attempt to improve things should be halted until those are fixed.  Again this is similar to the change to no loot on failure/exit, that was modified after the fact for defense missions as this problem came to light.  Should they have done nothing until they had the perfect system to implement? no, they did what was good for the general population, then fine tuned it accordingly.

 

Let me be clear, the argument that because others will do something, that is currently already occuring are problems that need to be dealt with as they are problems in an of themselves.  Bringing up issues to be addressed to avoid excerbating these problems is completely valid, but to counter something by stating you are going to not play with a co-op mindset to punish those who don't play with a co-op mindset is not contributing to a solution, you are making the problem worse and creating stagnation until someone else solves the problem for you.

 

So to update for those who won't read the updated OP

 

Main Ideas:

[ 1 ] Allow items including, materials and modules to be picked up by one person and shared with others.

 

[ 2 ] Exclude health, affinity, and energy orbs, and Blue Prints from this shared pickup system.

 

[ 3 ] Possibly include a radius where items picked up are shared, if you are too far away you will not recieve it.

 

[ 4 ] If you are too far away, a green (color tbd) waypoint tag for "module" perhaps a different symbol also appears.  This can be toggled on/off in options or possibly with a key press.  This is implementable even without the notion of shared pickup.

 

[ 5 ] Possibly include different settings for the range of pickup based on private (organized team play) and online (public play)

Edited May 7, 2013 by Enot83

[MoonicusMaximus]

 

 

You havn't really kept up with things however, several times I've mentioned that adding some kind of radius, similar to the exp radius sharing would still reward players who are not doing the things you are mentioning.

 

Furthermore, perhaps the pickup range varies based on online and private games.  As I stated before, if you have a premade group there are missions who's conditions can be completed by going for multiple objectives and splitting your force to accomplish this.  In this case, being intelligent is penalized, as exp is not shared on the current system, and you must run to pickup drops.  The only real counter argument to this, is further enhancing level design that doesn't have levels designed like this, making that more of a moot point.  Driving back to the point of well now you have no reason to divide and conquer, so having a similar exp radius for pickups just makes sense.

 

Btw, as to the previous mentions of afk'ing, since you can run multiple desktops, multiple instances of the game, and treat a single input device as input for all of them, even the if you have 3 others sit afk just to multiple your loot is invalidated in that, you can potentially already find ways to do this.

 

I still do not see this flawed logic of, because someone else does something wrong, I want to not look for ways to make the system better.  Are you really supposing that there are so many rushers/afkers that will benefit?  You make it sound like only 5% of the player base is playing, and 95% are rushing or afk'ing etc.  I'd beg to differ that the over net benefit of something should be examined, the problems it brings to light can be addressed accordingly, but does not necessarily mean any attempt to improve things should be halted until those are fixed.  Again this is similar to the change to no loot on failure/exit, that was modified after the fact for defense missions as this problem came to light.  Should they have done nothing until they had the perfect system to implement? no, they did what was good for the general population, then fine tuned it accordingly.

 

So to update for those who won't read the updated OP

 

Main Ideas:

[ 1 ] Allow items including, materials and modules to be picked up by one person and shared with others.

 

[ 2 ] Exclude health, affinity, and energy orbs, and Blue Prints from this shared pickup system.

 

[ 3 ] Possibly include a radius where items picked up are shared, if you are too far away you will not recieve it.

 

[ 4 ] If you are too far away, a green (color tbd) waypoint tag for "module" perhaps a different symbol also appears.  This can be toggled on/off in options or possibly with a key press.

 

Ah, no, I must have missed that post of yours.

 

You should try and update your main opening idea with further improvements of your own in the future. That way people can get into your discussion immediately, without needing to read everything just to stay in the know.

 

But if the small radius is there, and it's small enough not to reward people rooms away... why even have it, when your team should be right in that area? It seems redundant and needlessly making things easier when they are already fairly easy.

 

Just because you can potentially do something already, like multibox mod-farm, DE shouldn't suddenly start facilitating it so that it's easier and made more widely available to the rest of the playerbase.

 

Currently, there are not a lot of AFKers because the incentives in a mission must be obtained in-person. If your loot system was widespread, AFKing would become a pretty prominent problem.

Edited May 7, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Enot83]

The main ideas have been updated. 

 

Again to the afk point, currently to afk, someone will stand there till wave 4, then run around gather up mods.  When you see this, chances are you should quit at wave 5, knowing that this player is doing this.

 

With this system or something similar, player will stand there for all 5 waves.  When you see this, chances are you should quit at wave 5, knowing that this player is doing this.

 

If players are idle in online/private games something should be done about that, it's an issue brought to light by my suggestion but is not something that should halt it.

 

This just irks me

 

But if the small radius is there, and it's small enough not to reward people rooms away... why even have it, when your team should be right in that area? It seems redundant and needlessly making things easier when they are already fairly easy.

 

This is equivalent to telling me you have never asked someone standing next to something you want to hand it to you.  You have legs, is it so difficult? it seems redundant and needlessly making others do things when you can do it fairly easily on your own.

 

This kind of logic just falls apart too quickly.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Enot83

[MoonicusMaximus]

The main ideas have been updated. 

 

Again to the afk point, currently to afk, someone will stand there till wave 4, then run around gather up mods.  When you see this, chances are you should quit at wave 5, knowing that this player is doing this.

 

With this system or something similar, player will stand there for all 5 waves.  When you see this, chances are you should quit at wave 5, knowing that this player is doing this.

 

If players are idle in online/private games something should be done about that, it's an issue brought to light by my suggestion but is not something that should halt it.

 

Oh, this is for JUST defense missions?

 

I'm thinking in terms of the ENTIRE GAME, not just a single mission type. It might work in that regard... but it would have to stay in defense missions only, which would make the overall loot system kind of confusing.

 

And, still, why am I being forced to quit? This AFK guy is being a real tool, yet if I don't want to keep feeding him free mods, I should go out of my way to quit the game? That's not good design.

Edited May 7, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Enot83]

This is not just regarding defense but if it has a similar range as exp, as an example the notion that people could afk to get things will only work in any real applicable situation like a defense map where you are staying in one position.  If the map requires you to move around as soon as you are out of range of the afk'er there is no longer anything shared anyways, so the argument becomes invalid.  And stating they are staying back, contradicts the term of afk, and they will likely encounter enemies at some point as things spawn behind as well as infront.

 

And still, you're talking about issues that are not directly correlated to the original idea, you're bringing up existing problems that require solutions regardless of if something like this is implemented or not.

 

 

And, still, why am I being forced to quit? This AFK guy is being a real tool, yet if I don't want to keep feeding him free mods, I should go out of my way to quit the game? That's not good design.

 

But you're ok that you're feeding him free exp, free credits, a potentially free mod from the 5 wave reward.  There is so much wrong with this example that overlooks the existing problem to make a far reach at the suggestion here.

 

If some of this comes across harsh, I do apologize for that, this round and round on something until we cover every single angle just to arrive back at the point already stated that these are individual problems that exist and must be dealt with outside of the suggestion becomes less about what can be done to make improvements to the game.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Enot83

[MoonicusMaximus]

This is not just regarding defense but if it has a similar range as exp, as an example the notion that people could afk to get things will only work in any real applicable situation like a defense map where you are staying in one position.  If the map requires you to move around as soon as you are out of range of the afk'er there is no longer anything shared anyways, so the argument becomes invalid.  And stating they are staying back, contradicts the term of afk, and they will likely encounter enemies at some point as things spawn behind as well as infront.

 

And still, you're talking about issues that are not directly correlated to the original idea, you're bringing up existing problems that require solutions regardless of if something like this is implemented or not.

 

But you're ok that you're feeding him free exp, free credits, a potentially free mod from the 5 wave reward.  There is so much wrong with this example that overlooks the existing problem to make a far reach at the suggestion here.

 

I'm not okay with feeding him anything. But we most certainly do not need to be facilitating him sitting there leeching and making it easier by just handing him the mods when other people walk over them. Most of my concerns for this kind of loot system for mods stem from not just defense missions, but the whole of the game. As it is right now, you can't be AFK if you want loot drops, like mods and materials. In my opinion, this is fine the way it is, not perfect, but requires players to actually be there and actively seek the loot drops.

 

Is this kind of system really so bad?

 

Let's take a look back at the reasoning for this change. It's a pretty large change to the loot system that allows for abuse, and these changes are meant to deal with problems in the gameplay. This problem, in particular, is that in defense maps, people don't have time to run around for mods. Wouldn't the much simpler solution to to have mods automatically tagged on the minimap until they are collected by the players? That would help people gather mods at a much quicker rate, while still maintaining the checks and balances that are currently well and working for the current loot system.

[Mietz]

Let's take a look back at the reasoning for this change. It's a pretty large change to the loot system that allows for abuse, and these changes are meant to deal with problems in the gameplay. This problem, in particular, is that in defense maps, people don't have time to run around for mods. Wouldn't the much simpler solution to to have mods automatically tagged on the minimap until they are collected by the players? That would help people gather mods at a much quicker rate, while still maintaining the checks and balances that are currently well and working for the current loot system.

 

The easiest solution for this would be to make the players receive mods, credits and materials from "drops" automatically, without making them lie on the ground.

 

Why things drop on the ground in lootnboot games like Diablo, Torchlight etc. is because there is limited inventory space and the player is supposed to chose the loot he wants, not pick up everything.

 

In WF this makes no sense as there is no limited inventory and there is infinite space.

 

Orbs and ammo can stay as pickups as they are strategic immediate resources and the acquisition is part of strategic map control.

[MoonicusMaximus]

The easiest solution for this would be to make the players receive mods, credits and materials from "drops" automatically, without making them lie on the ground.

 

Why things drop on the ground in lootnboot games like Diablo, Torchlight etc. is because there is limited inventory space and the player is supposed to chose the loot he wants, not pick up everything.

 

In WF this makes no sense as there is no limited inventory and there is infinite space.

 

Orbs and ammo can stay as pickups as they are strategic immediate resources and the acquisition is part of strategic map control.

 

But a system like that allows people who contribute nothing to have the full benefits, while the current system only benefits the people actively doing the mission. That's my only concern, the potential for abuse outweighs the benefits.

[Mietz]

But a system like that allows people who contribute nothing to have the full benefits, while the current system only benefits the people actively doing the mission. That's my only concern, the potential for abuse outweighs the benefits.

 

Read my post again, because it says something completely different from what you assume i said.

 

I do not support the OP.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Mietz

[FluffyBunnySlippers]

I might support something like this if it was kept solely for Private games, but I'd personally not like to see it in pugs. Your point regarding organised teams splitting up to take on multiple objectives simultaneously is a good one, but i have never seen this happen in a pug. 

 

When it comes to this kind of mechanic always keep in mind that anything which can be abused will be abused. It hinges on how annoying that abuse is to the individual.

 

For my part I'm happy to be a team player, I'll take on whichever role is required to the best of my abilities. But I despise being used, I have almost zero tolerance for it. This kind of mechanic would be ideal for those players who want to keep themselves out of harms way but reap the reward of other peoples effort. I'm not talking afk at spawn here, rather just hanging back and letting others do the fighting/ pull aggro as it where. This would annoy me far more than missing out on the odd mod or mat drop. It's one of the few things that would actually get me to pull the plug on a mission, which is not a decision I'd make lightly.

 

There will always be those who want maximum reward for minimum effort, this is a god-send for them. And just because it may not be a huge problem now, given the mechanics that feed this kind of behavior, it will likely grow. 

 

Again, for organised teams playing private games, no issue with this, it even adds the option perhaps to have the least experienced/ newer player join the game as a "designated looter", giving them the chance to feel they are making a bigger contribution to the game than if they were directly fighting (given that they are significantly below the average in damage output). 

[MoonicusMaximus]

Read my post again, because it says something completely different from what you assume i said.

 

I do not support the OP.

 

Ah, you mean a mod system in which only the person touching the mod gets it, after which it disappears?

[RealityMachina]

Ah, you mean a mod system in which only the person touching the mod gets it, after which it disappears?

No, he means a mod system where if you earn a mod...it appears in your inventory automatically, no need to look for it, since, as he says, Warframe doesn't have the kind of inventory system where the usual system of having to manually pick up items would make sense.

[Mietz]

Ah, you mean a mod system in which only the person touching the mod gets it, after which it disappears?

 

I mean a system in which when I kill an enemy (or assist in a kill) I get the reward (loot) directly.

 

I still have to do the work of killing the enemy, or looting the chest, etc. the reward is just automatically placed in my infinite inventory without being physically picked up by me from a location ingame.

 

In WF this is entirely feasible as long as lockers and crates would be instanced for every player.

 

Mods already are instanced, they just drop for everyone regardless of who made the kill, in my version the mods are still instanced but only for yourself and only if you actually participated in combat (the defeat of the enemy).

 

The same goes for resources and credits but not for orbs.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Mietz

[Enot83]

Mods already are instanced, they just drop for everyone regardless of who made the kill, in my version the mods are still instanced but only for yourself and only if you actually participated in combat (the defeat of the enemy).

 

The same goes for resources and credits but not for orbs.

 

*eyes my banshee frame*  Yes I can see this working even better than my original idea.  Support players would have no problems.

 

This if as you suggest is completely counter to co-op play and will become a game of who can tag/kill enemies before others kill it.

 

This is counter productive, rushers off ahead killing entire forces, on defense maps leaving the objective just to get kills, nothing about this helps co-op play.  This is also leaning off topic.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Enot83