Improve Block?

[Stanzwick]

Just think it needs to be changed/buffed, as right now (imo) it's more beneficial to just roll away from enemies before attacking or to run/slide/jump around while attacking.  

 

Suggestions: 

 

1) Blocking Nothing: remove stamina drain, instead stop stamina regen.

 

2) Blocking Gunfire: Drain stamina at a fair rate (perhaps affected by number of enemies firing at you if it's not already). Let a fair amount of damage through, or completely negate gunfire damage and significantly increase stamina drain. 

 

3) Blocking Melee: Drain stamina in chunks (affected by enemy type/power).  Negates all normal melee damage (still receive normal/reduced damage from elemental/ancient attacks).  Maybe consume more stamina to block through shockwaves?  If a player's stamina hits 0 while blocking melee attacks their guard will be broken, stunning them for a short time.  Add a counterattack, could be it's own animation or an instant charge attack (I'm thinking it'd consume no stamina or a very small amount to compensate for stamina lost during the initial block). 

 

4) Mods: There could be mods to reduce stamina costs of blocking/countering, increase counter damage, increase damage negation or to block larger attacks (ancient attacks, shockwaves, etc.).

 

Thoughts? 

[Shion963]

Yes.

[Ranzen]

YEah, I deemed block useless on my second day of playing and never tried since. It would be great if the improved it so that way we would have more game play variation and it could open up the ability to chain some sweet player discovered combo's.

[GrayFox]

Just think it needs to be changed/buffed, as right now (imo) it's more beneficial to just roll away from enemies before attacking or to run/slide/jump around while attacking.  

 

Suggestions: 

 

1) Blocking Nothing: remove stamina drain, instead stop stamina regen.

 

2) Blocking Gunfire: Drain stamina at a fair rate (perhaps affected by number of enemies firing at you if it's not already). Let a fair amount of damage through, or completely negate gunfire damage and significantly increase stamina drain. 

 

3) Blocking Melee: Drain stamina in chunks (affected by enemy type/power).  Negates all normal melee damage (still receive normal/reduced damage from elemental/ancient attacks).  Maybe consume more stamina to block through shockwaves?  If a player's stamina hits 0 while blocking melee attacks their guard will be broken, stunning them for a short time.  Add a counterattack, could be it's own animation or an instant charge attack (I'm thinking it'd consume no stamina or a very small amount to compensate for stamina lost during the initial block). 

 

4) Mods: There could be mods to reduce stamina costs of blocking/countering, increase counter damage, increase damage negation or to block larger attacks (ancient attacks, shockwaves, etc.).

 

Thoughts? 

 

1) Depleting stamina is fine, I hate to go with a real world logic behind but holding up a weapon and parrying bullets isn't an easy feat in the first place :)

 

2) I go with the latter 

 

3) This is great. :)

 

4) Rock on.

[neKroMancer]

The first one is a good suggestion. Block nothing should cost no stamina but stop regen, I agree.

Second one is already in the game.

The third one is a bit hard to implement in current network and game environment. A little bit of lag with throw your timing off the counterattack. Moreover, if it results in automatic counterattack, you will got shot at while performing the counterattack animation.

I think we should have a more fluid transition between blocking and charge melee/normal melee animation.

[Inberun]

- Blocking should prevent you from being staggered from the front

- Knockdown attack will push you back instead of knocking you to the ground

- Allowing Parry and Counter Attack (similar to Dark Souls) where you can do a timed bash and knock an enemy off-guard to perform a critical execution (maybe a feature for single target weapon in order to improve their usefulness)

- A special weapon that gives you ability to block 100% damage (Buckler with blade attached, Spike Shield)

- Ability to deflect bullets back to enemies with timed block and melee.

[Stanzwick]

1) Depleting stamina is fine, I hate to go with a real world logic behind but holding up a weapon and parrying bullets isn't an easy feat in the first place :)

 

2) I go with the latter 

 

3) This is great. :)

 

4) Rock on.

-I'm fine with quick stamina drain on bullet deflection, but I'm pretty sure that drain stacks on the idle drain, which really eats through stamina fast.  I figured if we can hold up the snipetron/gorgon/fully drawn paris without a problem we shouldn't have trouble holding a melee weapon in front of us- at least while we're not being attacked, or the idle consumption should be dependent on what type of melee weapon is equipped.   

-Thing I'm not sure about with the mods would be where they'd go (frame or weapon or both). 

 

The first one is a good suggestion. Block nothing should cost no stamina but stop regen, I agree.

Second one is already in the game.

The third one is a bit hard to implement in current network and game environment. A little bit of lag with throw your timing off the counterattack. Moreover, if it results in automatic counterattack, you will got shot at while performing the counterattack animation.

I think we should have a more fluid transition between blocking and charge melee/normal melee animation.

 - Oh, that's partial damage negation right?  Wasn't sure if the stamina drain was affected by the number of enemies firing at you.  Thoughts on full bullet damage negation with a much higher stam consumption?

- I was thinking it'd be optional, if you attack during that flinch after blocking  you trigger a counter.  

- Could reduce the flinch time after a block (letting you attack sooner, this would also mean you'd have to time counter attacks more precisely).

[neKroMancer]

I don't like the idea of full damage negation with block. Partial damage negation already affected by attack speed and mod equipped on the weapon. Fang with 1.5 speed already negates 20-25 out of 50 damage. Number of incoming damage reduce the stamina faster and gives a good reason to use marathon mod to increase block duration. There was a mod that allow player to reflect portion of damage back with blocking in the poll mentioned in the livestream 5 and I think there will be more modification through mod system. However, full damage negation is too much imo.

Optional counterattack would be nice but I doubt that we will see that. As I posted earlier, the P2P is quite limiting on technique that based on short timing window. Most of the games I found these thchniques effective are offline game.

I think that removing melee weapon swap animation after blocking would be a good addition.

Edited May 10, 2013 by neKroMancer

[PositronicSpleen]

Nobody guards because it's better to either evade or incapacitate them. Guarding means you're stuck in the line of fire with gradually diminishing defense rather than somewhere safe, or making progress.

 

I like the idea of stamina draining only when something is being defended against, it's not exactly stressful to just stand there, but it isn't really enough since it's not the reason people don't block.

 

I propose that guarding remain something that is less desirable than evasion or a counter-attack, but have its own utility when neither of those are possible. First, guarding melee stuns the attacker, and following up with melee guarantees a critical hit; my main concern is how this would interact with melee bosses, they would almost have to be immune. Second, guarding makes the user immune to knockdowns, which I think is an elegant fix to what is currently a problem (balls, moas, etc.). From there, I would see how it works out before adding any other features.

 

I think blocking should deflect all damage while stamina is up, otherwise players will forgo it in favor of acrobatics in the direction of cover. If you need this justified for every weapon, consider that slower weapons are larger and tend to cover more area.

 

As for a mod idea, how about one that lets the player deflect stuff back at enemies? It would be really useful in situations where a player suddenly has lots of enemy aggression. It would also justify players seeking out that aggression, and make the +max stamina mod more useful in comparison to the +stamina regen mod. I wouldn't make it a basic function, though, someone always has the enemy's attention, you wouldn't want everyone just back to back and blocking.

 

Another idea, a mod that lets a player go up to an enemy and hit the guard button to disarm them and/or perform some judo throw. Possibly the throw would scale with level until you could throw them at their friends and knock them down. It would make guarding something of an offensive maneuver.

Edited May 12, 2013 by PositronicSpleen

[NydusTemplar]

There've been a few good topics on the matter, though I don't have the links on hand.

 

The current issue with block is a fairly well established case of usefulness versus comparable options.  As we've stated, there are simply better ways of handling damage mitigation, generally by enemy removal or seeking cover.  Currently, block just doesn't serve a purpose by comparison to these.

 

I'd posted this in another thread, but essentially it'd be good if you could use block plus melee as a frontal defensive option, null suggested a low sweep to knock away rollers and runners, allowing for a bit of breathing room.  It would come complementary with the fact that blocking would grant directional immunity to things like AoE knockdowns from Shockwave Moa and Grineer Heavies, as well as Ancient tentacles.  It could/should block disrupt/drain effects too, so that you could use it at the right time to receive a charge or bait out an enemy close range counter before going to town.

 

However, I suppose that might have too much of a game balance implication, having block to counter things like knockdowns from Shield Lancers and Shockwave Moa to 'reduce their effectiveness' as a unit.  If so, that's fine, but block needs something.

 

What I could also see is change to how block works in a different way.  Perhaps block, instead of being a constant drain, it would (as described above) just prevent stamina regeneration and take 'damage' like your shields or health every time you get hit.  Melee attacks drain less than ranged.  In effect, it becomes a recharging health bar which can absorb damage at the cost of not doing any damage.  If combined with a mod suggested in the Council Forums (Damage Returned while blocking), and Increased Max Stamina mods, you could actually block tank bosses by managing your abilities, your stamina, and your damage output to keep attention.

 

Not sure how effective it would be since stamina doesn't appear to have a numeric value, but its something at least.  It would also be a good excuse to give tank frames with lower top speed more stamina by default, as to play up their greater endurance and help mitigate the whole 'So sllooowww' bit.

 

Just a thought.

[KhanCipher]

There's a block button?!