Incentives To Stop Running The Same Missions Over And Over:bountys, U8 Dojo/mod Market.

[Firebat86]

Because if you implement a bounty system in which you can purchase mods it breaks the system.  Not everyone has an endless supply if cores from CB like you.  Therefore I proposed it be something where you can purchase cores etc. 

[xenapan]

Because if you implement a bounty system in which you can purchase mods it breaks the system.  Not everyone has an endless supply if cores from CB like you.  Therefore I proposed it be something where you can purchase cores etc. 

I asked you HOW my system breaks the existing system. You never answered. If anything YOUR idea would break the system.

Purchasing mods does not break the system. Mod packs exist already. Mods that come from buying the largest denominations of platinum also exist already. both of which are MUCh more rapid than the system I'm proposing. On the other hand, you cannot buy fusion cores. Do you know why? Because it shortens the game's lifespan. Fusion cores reduce the time it takes to progress by leaps and bounds.

oh and finally... they break the system pretty much as they please. U7 broke the entire mod system top to bottom. They broke the alert system by adding in actual warframe BP's for vauban. The broke the Bp farming system by adding bp's for banshee as a random drop at the end of missions. They broke the system when they added frost prime's parts to missions that are inaccessible directly. Breaking a system isn't a bad thing and they do it all the time. It's about doing it RIGHT

 

 

a) you dont need an endless supply of cores. but its there. its called playing the game. as long as you keep playing you will get more cores.

b) I havent used the majority of my cores.

c) remember the whole system is based off HOURS of inactivity. It balances with player population changes. More players = less bounty (because less inactive nodes) = less "bonus" mods. Less players = higher chunks of inactivity = gives incentive for players to play more.

d) cores are NEVER required. You can always level a mod with other mods. same identical mod, same polarity, even different polarity... and cores are always second best (compared to identical mods)

e) you say it as if there would be a huge influx of mods. they can change the cost of mods in the actual market to balance. they can change the cost of the actual market inside the dojo. Its designed to be a long term solution and not a quick fix for every player to get every mod they ever wanted immediately. That absolutely won't happen because of the player created rarity in point c).

[dukelego]

I think the bounty would have to be per player specific so that people who want high rewards (heavy and urgent) aren't getting screwed by other people who are doing the low level bounties

Also I don't think the prices should fluctuate as you say they would especially because farming is still the name of the game

And may be for a while

You might also want to add a materials purchaser so its not just mods, and you can only buy any of these things with the points or plat

And a section specifically for fusion cores

Edited May 19, 2013 by dukelego

[Firebat86]

Ok here's your rebuttal.  You want to be able to BUY specific mods.  You know how you can obtain those? BY PLAYING THE GAME.  Exactly like you can cores etc that you countered me with.  Being able to buy specific mods breaks the game and reduces the lifespan way more than what I proposed.  Wtf is the point of playing if you can just be one of the few who can do those Pluto missions or higher level missions that go inactive with a high bounty, reap those rewards, and get whatever you want? Sure doesn't seem fair to me.  Like the above poster said, maybe just being able to get some materials etc from the bounty system would work better.  Nothing to do with mods at all.  Oh and you say cores are NEVER required.  Well guess what?  you can still do well in high level missions without the few mods you are missing.  They aren't required either!

[dukelego]

Ok here's your rebuttal. You want to be able to BUY specific mods. You know how you can obtain those? BY PLAYING THE GAME. Exactly like you can cores etc that you countered me with. Being able to buy specific mods breaks the game and reduces the lifespan way more than what I proposed. Wtf is the point of playing if you can just be one of the few who can do those Pluto missions or higher level missions that go inactive with a high bounty, reap those rewards, and get whatever you want? Sure doesn't seem fair to me. Like the above poster said, maybe just being able to get some materials etc from the bounty system would work better. Nothing to do with mods at all. Oh and you say cores are NEVER required. Well guess what? you can still do well in high level missions without the few mods you are missing. They aren't required either!

Well if your taking the time to get to where you can play on Pluto with or without help shouldn't you get those rewards without having to farm a hole lot?

I think they would just have to make prices really steep for mods or to get to the highest level you would have to wait more then an our maybe six or something (or any of them)

I'm also going to stress this: player specific!

Edited May 19, 2013 by dukelego

[xenapan]

Ok here's your rebuttal. You want to be able to BUY specific mods. You know how you can obtain those? BY PLAYING THE GAME. Exactly like you can cores etc that you countered me with. Being able to buy specific mods breaks the game and reduces the lifespan way more than what I proposed. Wtf is the point of playing if you can just be one of the few who can do those Pluto missions or higher level missions that go inactive with a high bounty, reap those rewards, and get whatever you want? Sure doesn't seem fair to me. Like the above poster said, maybe just being able to get some materials etc from the bounty system would work better. Nothing to do with mods at all. Oh and you say cores are NEVER required. Well guess what? you can still do well in high level missions without the few mods you are missing. They aren't required either!

Yes. you can buy specific mods vs buying random ones from market packs. It already exists in the game therefore it won't break anything.

The difference between cores and mods? the RATE of progression. you get 1 mod, it at best increases your rank 0 mod to rank 1. A rare 5 takes a rare mod from rank 0 to rank 1 + 80% exp for rank 2. So its basically somewhere between 3 and 4 of the same rare mod's worth of exp. Theres a reason why rare fusion 5s drop so rarely.

The whole reason why we need a place for specific mods is RARE DILUTION. The way drops work, you first roll for rarity, then specific mod. So far there are 7 rare warframe mods, 4 rifle, 3 shotgun, 2 pistol, 1 melee. But then you add in 13 different warframes and suddenly you are looking at less than half of the rare mods are non ability mods. Whats worse, we have more frames incoming almost without a doubt. Add to that the fact that the last 3 mods added for the fusion moa event? Also rare. Right now we have 17 actual rare mods, and 13 ultimate abilities, but also a handful of non ultimates that are rare as well. Chaos, silence, radial blast, electric shield, contagion, bullet attractor, snow globe. I assume at least the prison ability for vauban is as well which adds a total of 8 rares to that list of 30 to make it 38. You know whats a 1/38 chance look like? 2.6% of finding a specific rare mod you want and I can literally PROMISE you that number is only going to continue to go down as more frames and mods get added. Lets pretend theres 1 new frame a month and on average that adds 1.5 rare mods to the pool assuming every other frame gets 2 rare ability instead of 1 rare ability. Fastforward 12 months, there will be 12 new frames for 18 new rares taking that number up to 56. That dropped your chances of getting a mod you wanted to 1.7%. And thats assuming DE doesn't continue adding new mods like the thunderbolt for the paris. Unfortunately they already announced they were going to add some cool tricks to the glaive via a mod. They also announced after the first extermination event that they would very likely be doing another which takes that number to 58.

So my question to you is: when is the dilution too high? at what % would you be willing to continue to try and farm for a rare mod? 1%? 0.5%? 0.3%.

Worse. what would a NEW player be willing to grind at? Multishot for rifle/pistol/shotgun is 3 mods in total. that wont ever change. What are the chances of a new player ever achieving those mods after 1 month gameplay? 2? 3? What about thunderbolt? its cool, its niche, but at what point are people going to give up farming xini or whatever the current fashion is for it when you tell them they have a 1.7% chance to get it every time a rare drops? At that point it isn't about grinding or farming anymore. Remember thats currently a 2.7% chance RIGHT NOW. ASSUMING you got a rare its got a 2.7% chance its the one you want. Pretend you can grind 5 waves of xini and get 1 rare consistently. You know what stats says about being able to get that thunderbolt? How many waves do you think you need to do to get at least 1 thunderbolt mod? On a uniform distribution(meaning we assume each rare mod drop is equally likely for each of the 38 current rares) , of p = 2.7%, After 100 tries = P(X>1) = 1- (37/38)^100 = 0.93. Or basically saying the chances of you getting a thunderbolt after 100 tries (of 5 waves per rare) is 93%. So it takes you 500 waves to get a single rare mod with a 93% certainty. But now repeat that with every new mod that comes out... every time. Say you did 500 waves (and got 100 rares and got that 1 thunderbolt).. now glaive's new mod comes in. Now how many waves do you have to do to get that assuming they put out another frame with 2 rare mods as well.. Now with 40 mods in the game, its 1/41. or 1- (40/41)^100 = 91.5% certainty after another 500 waves.

And thats assuming one rare drops every 5 waves(I wish) . Which it does not. It also assumes that all rares drop with the same drop rate (which they do not because of faction stuff. eg. thunderbolt only drops from infested, handspring from grineer) meaning you have to grind for each individually. Then the problem becomes much much more complex. Long story short, it takes 100 rare drops to have a 90%+ certainty that you get the mod you want. Each mod put in increases the number of drops you have to collect and some can't be collected at the same time and rare drops being... well.. rare, its going to get MUCH worse as they keep adding mods. The projection for next year (which is most likely a VERY conservative estimate) requires 130 rare drops to get each mod you want with 90% certainty (assuming 56 rares).

These days I'm farming for handspring at ceres/kappa or eris/kiste. Since I've practically maxed all my mods other than the 10 rank ones I havent fused any of my mods. So far my recent mod list shows 2 rares out of the last 80 (2 pages). Assuming 12 mods a run on average, rare drop rates are 1/40 or 1 per 4 runs roughly. So for a 93% chance for me to get my handspring, I'm looking at roughly 400 ceres/kappa runs. If i do 20 a day, i'll get it in 20 days or probably 2 patches later. Then I'll farm for my thunderbolt. which will take me probably 2000 waves in xini (I used 1 rare per 5 waves as an example. My guess is that the actual drop rate is closer to 1 rare/20 waves). Then probably another 2000 waves of outer terminus. How long do you think it will take me? 4 or 5 months? for 3 mods? cause thats what my numbers tell me.

Edited May 20, 2013 by xenapan

[Firebat86]

Or you could get it tomorrow, cuz RNG is RNG.  If you remove that from this game, which the game's based off of, you break it.  You can buy THREE out of the 180 some from play purchases? Lol so that justifies making all mods purchasable?

[xenapan]

You obviously dont seem to get the math thats been presented to you. How about I make it clear.

 

It's IMPOSSIBLE for the average dedicated player to ever get all the mods. EVER.

The AVERAGE amount of time it takes for a VERY DEDICATED DAILY player to farm a specific rare mod is LONGER than the time DE will take to release a new one. Meaning by the time I finish farming for thunderbolt, handspring and retribution, there will likely be 4 or 5 more rare mods out there.

 

Theres a problem if you think its good design that a dedicated player that plays a few HOURS EVERY DAY... CANT keep up with new content before its released. well I don't know what else to say.

[Firebat86]

And yet currently the hunt for those elusive mods is what keeps the VERY DEDICATED DAILY player there playing.  Funny how that works.  You can do the math you want, but at the end of the day it's still RNG.  PS I'm a very dedicated daily player or whatever and have all but retribution.  Lucky maybe? But still don't think you should be able to even remotely browse and purchase mods from ANY market.

[Unit5976]

And yet currently the hunt for those elusive mods is what keeps the VERY DEDICATED DAILY player there playing.  Funny how that works.  You can do the math you want, but at the end of the day it's still RNG.  PS I'm a very dedicated daily player or whatever and have all but retribution.  Lucky maybe? But still don't think you should be able to even remotely browse and purchase mods from ANY market.

You said it yourself, RNG is still RNG. There's a random chance that one or more players will get most mods, and that one or more will still end up with the same useless ones. It's random, it's unfair, it's unbalanced.

 

Plus, we need a credit sink.

[Firebat86]

Might want to read this about your maths for your mods etc:  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/45426-please-read-this-before-posting-about-drop-rates/#entry455837

[xenapan]

Might want to read this about your maths for your mods etc:  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/45426-please-read-this-before-posting-about-drop-rates/#entry455837

you clearly didnt understand the math i did if you linked me to that article.

[Excitonex]

I don't think DE needs to increase the availability of mods. If you want to try and get a mod without spending time to farm it buy mod packs. After about 180 hours played I had all the mods, and none were even close to max rank. You may be lucky enough to not ever use fusion cores to level your mods but, personally, I had to use over 200 cores to get my Hornet Strike from rank 8-9. Leveling mods to max takes far longer than it does to find them all, in my experience.

[xenapan]

I don't think DE needs to increase the availability of mods. If you want to try and get a mod without spending time to farm it buy mod packs. After about 180 hours played I had all the mods, and none were even close to max rank. You may be lucky enough to not ever use fusion cores to level your mods but, personally, I had to use over 200 cores to get my Hornet Strike from rank 8-9. Leveling mods to max takes far longer than it does to find them all, in my experience.

Dude... you obviously dont understand. It's not just the CURRENT availability of mods. It's the FUTURE availability of mods that's the issue. And I'm a rank 7 player with well over 200 hours played and I'm missing all 3 of the new mods from the fusion moa event. So obviously RNG is going to make a HUGE difference. Whole point is RNG is going to make a bigger difference as it goes on thats just a fact.

[xenapan]

bump

[xenapan]

bump