Rhino Iron Skin Is So Pathetic D=

[Lesserli]

Yesterday one of my fellows was shot to death really fast. I helped him up after doing a Rhino Stomp and activating the Skin. After I helped him up I lost my Skin (800 HP), my Shields (1050) and ca. 400 HP (from my 580 pool). So, in just a few seconds, in a defense mission something near wave 15 on Kiliken. I've lost 800+1050+1200 (400 HP lost and Rhino has 66% DMG reduction). So, when the time for a skin comes, it is quite unreliable. This situation showed me Rhino is far from a tank when he barely helps up a fallen teammate on a quite low defense wave.

I don't know if DE tested the new Iron Skin on the battlefield. With or without using the ability the Rhino already kicks butties at lower and midlevels. But when it's really needed it's mostly useless (the only thing that keep him from a very fast death is the stun immunity).

 

And don't forget the broken ultimate at the moment. Where are your hotfixes now, DE?

[Mediave]

You serious? It's basically a cheap, faster version of Avalanche (With what feels like infinite vertical range), and the damage radius is quite respectable as well. Since they buffed his Radial Blast, it's all I've been using.

It's an amazing panic button, and that sound when everything around you explodes into delicious gibs is worth every point of energy.

edit: Sorry bout the slight OT, but on the topic of Iron Skin, I'd actually prefer they revert to the earlier 80% damage reduction, allow that to be affected by Focus (Maybe change it to 75% reduction, so even with 30% Focus it will never reach 100% reduction), but keep the aggro and disruption protection.

And of course, remove that damage cap.

 

Yes, I'm quite serious.  It's distance is by no means great, and the damage it does is pathetic.  I put a rank 2 in (1 pip away from max) to try it out in Kiste because I read that in the last patch it received an amazing damage boost.  It did not.  It hit for 250.  That's 250 damage to nearby enemies for 75 energy.  All it does is knockdown.  You can do the same thing with a Fragor jump attack (and for that matter, most melee weapons, Fragor just has more distance), while still doing more damage due to your weapon mods.

 

And cheap?  75 energy is not cheap, especially on a frame whose max energy is only 150 without a Flow mod.  This skill is useless.  I repeat useless.  Anything it can do, you can do with a weapon in game, and you can do it without spending any energy.

 

Edit:  Went back and tested it on Themisto (to get numbers from a faction other than grineer).  I maxed it out this time, and while the numbers were sometimes more favorable, it's still largely inconsistent.  Against regular enemies, it was hitting anywhere from 150-1000, and against Ancients it was about 150-400.  I'll test against corpus later.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Mediave

[McKiwi]

Yes, I'm quite serious. It's distance is by no means great, and the damage it does is pathetic. I put a rank 2 in (1 pip away from max) to try it out in Kiste because I read that in the last patch it received an amazing damage boost. It did not. It hit for 250. That's 250 damage to nearby enemies for 75 energy. All it does is knockdown. You can do the same thing with a Fragor jump attack (and for that matter, most melee weapons, Fragor just has more distance), while still doing more damage due to your weapon mods.

And cheap? 75 energy is not cheap, especially on a frame whose max energy is only 150 without a Flow mod. This skill is useless. I repeat useless. Anything it can do, you can do with a weapon in game, and you can do it without spending any energy.

Edit: Went back and tested it on Themisto (to get numbers from a faction other than grineer). I maxed it out this time, and while the numbers were sometimes more favorable, it's still largely inconsistent. Against regular enemies, it was hitting anywhere from 150-1000, and against Ancients it was about 150-400. I'll test against corpus later.

As I've said, it acts like a weaker version of avalanche and is thus affected by armor, but I'm glad you've taken the time to test it out. Against Corpus, at least, I've been hitting consistent 1200s on the Crewmen and MOAs with 20% Focus, and 600s on the Ospreys. Against Grineer, I've been hitting around 400.

In my opinion, it's still far from useless (and definitely a better use of energy than his ult in its current state)

Edit: Mine's at max rank, should've mentioned that.

Edited May 30, 2013 by McKiwi

[Firebat86]

No, Rhino is a tank. A tank in MMO terms is a charecter who takes damage so others dont. HIding is not tanking. Not even going to go into how wrong the rest of your post is.

 

But see if people play smart and use cover etc, then people aren't even supposed to be taking damage.  You expecting to pop IS and run into a group to "tank" isn't tanking my friend.  It's being there to take the damage smartly and be able to manage damage in vs what you can handle.  The people who abused IS so much are the one's complaining the most.  The ability wasn't created to allow you to just run in and melee.

 

PS should try having a Volt toss down an electric shield or two, popping IS while behind them, and laughing.  Being creative and using abilities together and supporting each other is what DE is striving for.

 

While I do agree though that the 80% dmg reduction was pretty nice and closer to what it needed to be, the flat shield boost is kinda frustrating.  It is nice that you regen shields while it's up though.  IS is heading towards more of an oh crap button, than a well let me abuse this and wade through this group of mobs.  I personally feel like the tank aspect and taunt aspect need to be separate abilities, but that's just me.

[Mediave]

As I've said, it acts like a weaker version of avalanche and is thus affected by armor, but I'm glad you've taken the time to test it out. Against Corpus, at least, I've been hitting consistent 1200s on the Crewmen and MOAs with 20% Focus, and 600s on the Ospreys. Against Grineer, I've been hitting around 400.

In my opinion, it's still far from useless (and definitely a better use of energy than his ult in its current state)

Edit: Mine's at max rank, should've mentioned that.

 

Ok, so whatever stealth update they gave Radial Blast, I admittedly enjoy it quite a bit now.  At least against Corpus and Infested.  I think it could stand to do at least a little more damage to Grineer and Ancients, as part of the effort to make Rhino's non IS skills better, but at least this is a start and it's more than a glorified Fragor jump attack now.

[Boomstick720]

But see if people play smart and use cover etc, then people aren't even supposed to be taking damage.  You expecting to pop IS and run into a group to "tank" isn't tanking my friend.  It's being there to take the damage smartly and be able to manage damage in vs what you can handle.  The people who abused IS so much are the one's complaining the most.  The ability wasn't created to allow you to just run in and melee.

 

PS should try having a Volt toss down an electric shield or two, popping IS while behind them, and laughing.  Being creative and using abilities together and supporting each other is what DE is striving for.

 

While I do agree though that the 80% dmg reduction was pretty nice and closer to what it needed to be, the flat shield boost is kinda frustrating.  It is nice that you regen shields while it's up though.  IS is heading towards more of an oh crap button, than a well let me abuse this and wade through this group of mobs.  I personally feel like the tank aspect and taunt aspect need to be separate abilities, but that's just me.

I had Rhino for a total of three days before his latest nerf, so trust me when I say they only happiness I've had using Iron Skin was in those three days.  

 

And honestly?  Tanking is literally defined as being able to take a S#&$ load of damage, either through buffs, fast healing, or armor, while doing a S#&$ load of damage.  Hell, I can't think of a single game where tanking doesn't involve just running straight into the enemy like William Wallace on meth.  If there is anyone here that needs to check up on their definition of "tanking", its you.

 

As for the IS being the "oh crap" button, I'd wager its the last thing you want to use when surrounded by about a dozen infested on wave 12 of xini, but you can just test that yourself and see  how long you survive with this "clearly misunderstood" IS power.

[fishworshipper]

I like how you people take what I'm saying and completely ignore it in favor of being idiots and asking for needless buffs.

"Hmmm, I could attract the attention of all the enemies in the room, then run in circles, dodging all the bullets while keeping my teammates safe...

Or, I can stand still in the center of the room while my brain stops working and then complain that Iron Skin is broken because I died!"

Edited May 31, 2013 by fishworshipper

[Boomstick720]

I like how you people take what I'm saying and completely ignore it in favor of being idiots and asking for needless buffs.

Thank you O wise one.  How could I have not known that it was not legitimate valid complaints about the warframe that drove me, but merely pure idiocy?  With your astoundingly solid argument laid here before,  its baffling how anyone can possibly even hope to dissent from your mighty intellect without being crushed by the weight of their own inadequacy.  

 

Also "you people"?  really?

[fishworshipper]

Thank you O wise one.  How could I have not known that it was not legitimate valid complaints about the warframe that drove me, but merely pure idiocy?  With your astoundingly solid argument laid here before,  its baffling how anyone can possibly even hope to dissent from your mighty intellect without being crushed by the weight of their own inadequacy.  

 

Also "you people"?  really?

Apologies for the rather vague generalization, but SERIOUSLY GUYS, it isn't that hard to spam the Shift button with Iron Skin on, and it provides total team and Cryopod immunity when you do it without guaranteed killing yourself.

I'm not trying to come off as Mr Pro Game-Master, because to be honest I'm generally S#&$ at games, but when you look at simple instructions on how to use Iron Skin effectively and be credit to team and use blatant sarcastic remarks based on your own inability to do so then it's hard not to call such individuals idiots.

[Flaming_Snake]

"Hmmm, I could attract the attention of all the enemies in the room, then run in circles, dodging all the bullets while keeping my teammates safe...

 

This is not tanking, please go a re-check your definition. There's no point dodging the bullets and taking NO damage as a tank.

 

If that's what you think tanking is, then Loki tanks better than Rhino, which is just plain wrong.

[fishworshipper]

This is not tanking, please go a re-check your definition. There's no point dodging the bullets and taking NO damage as a tank.

 

If that's what you think tanking is, then Loki tanks better than Rhino, which is just plain wrong.

I don't know about your definition of tanking, but mine is along the lines of:

Stopping your teammates from getting hit while and often by preserving your own life.

[The_Diabetes]

I don't know about your definition of tanking, but mine is along the lines of:

Stopping your teammates from getting hit while and often by preserving your own life.

 

Loki does this better, while actually doing damage and not stupidly rolling around being useless.

Trinity does this better, while actually doing damage and not stupidly rolling around being useless.

Frost does this better by giving the entire team immunity to bullets for 30 seconds at a time. No gimmick roll around and hide nonsense. Its just hey guys invulnerability is up. Get in the bubble and lets shoot the enemy's faces off.

 

Congrats, you like being mediocre. Many rhino players do not. The three frames I just listed tank so much better than Rhino its a joke.

[Firebat86]

This is not tanking, please go a re-check your definition. There's no point dodging the bullets and taking NO damage as a tank.

 

If that's what you think tanking is, then Loki tanks better than Rhino, which is just plain wrong.

 

Might wanna recheck your definition bud.

 

A tank is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class. A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, MMORPGs, MOBAs and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks and/or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, evasiveness and misdirection, and/or self regeneration.^[1]Tanks are often represented as large or heavily armored.

 

In most games that feature a clear-cut "tank" class or character, there are three factors that contribute to a tank's survivability. The first is a large amount of health for absorbing damage that would normally go to lower health classes.^[1] The second is damage mitigation, the ability to lessen the damage attacks do in the first place. This is often accomplished through a high armor or defense stat mechanic. Finally, there is the ability to avoid attacks altogether. Depending on the game and class, a tank may focus on any combination of these.

 

See, no where does this say hey I can press a button, walk into a huge group of mobs, be INVULNERABLE, and kill them.  That's just what YOU want it to be. Gotta learn to adapt.  His damage mitigation and taunt works very well with other frames now. 

[Firebat86]

Loki does this better, while actually doing damage and not stupidly rolling around being useless.

Trinity does this better, while actually doing damage and not stupidly rolling around being useless.

Frost does this better by giving the entire team immunity to bullets for 30 seconds at a time. No gimmick roll around and hide nonsense. Its just hey guys invulnerability is up. Get in the bubble and lets shoot the enemy's faces off.

 

Congrats, you like being mediocre. Many rhino players do not. The three frames I just listed tank so much better than Rhino its a joke.

 

You seem to be forgetting the fact that tanks have the ability to take hits while also controlling the aggro of mobs.

 

Please tank with Loki and not be in invis... Wouldn't last but 1s.

 

Frost is another tank class.  Yes Ice Globe atm seems pretty OP, but he also doesn't really have any other abilities that offer aggro/CC mechanics like Rhino does.  Freeze is good if people don't touch the mob, but a lot of times it get's broken.

 

Trinity is being looked at.  More specifically her Link ability which is giving her this extreme tankiness.  But at the same time she supports and brings a lot to the table for the other tank classes.  Allowing them to heal and gain energy while having zero offensive abilities. 

 

Rhino is by no means mediocre, he just requires people to actually think now. IF anything with his added taunt mechanic he's much more suited for his tank role, and synergizes much better with the other frames. No more mash 2 and hit E till everything's dead.  THE HORROR!

[vieuxchat]

What's the point of "damage cap" if you don't take some damage while IS is active ?

So asking for us to dodge bullets isn't really inline with the coceot of damage reduction.

I think the taunt and damage cap should be separated, so we can chose what we need, as when you want to revive a fallen teammate you don't want aggro.

And they should up the damage cap as 800 can be destroyed very fast, even when rolling.

Edited May 31, 2013 by vieuxchat

[Firebat86]

What's the point of "damage cap" if you don't take some damage while IS is active ?

So asking for us to dodge bullets isn't really inline with the coceot of damage reduction.

I think the taunt and damage cap should be separated, so we can chose what we need, as when you want to revive a fallen teammate you don't want aggro.

And they should up the damage cap as 800 can be destroyed very fast, even when rolling.

 

I agree, and even posted this same thought in an earlier post.  The damage cap point is so that if you HAVE to take a hit or so you can.  Not that you HAVE to.

[ManTouch]

Loki does this better, while actually doing damage and not stupidly rolling around being useless.

Trinity does this better, while actually doing damage and not stupidly rolling around being useless.

Frost does this better by giving the entire team immunity to bullets for 30 seconds at a time. No gimmick roll around and hide nonsense. Its just hey guys invulnerability is up. Get in the bubble and lets shoot the enemy's faces off.

 

Congrats, you like being mediocre. Many rhino players do not. The three frames I just listed tank so much better than Rhino its a joke.

I haven't played my Frost yet, but I have played Loki and Trinity to 30 with helmets. I have no idea how you've come to the conclusion that Loki or Trinity tank better than Rhino. Unless you just have yours modded wrong he should have optimum crowd control and defense. Enemies should be dead long before Iron Skin has even expired.

 

With the new taunt it's even easier to just hit Iron Skin then use stomp to instantly clear a room. Unlike Loki or Trinity, you can single handily kill a room off without even needing your weapon. I'm currently playing and building several other frames to replace Loki and Trinity, but I haven't seen anything lacking from Rhino. If anything he's still the standard I'm measuring the other frames by. 

[MXXVI]

"Enemies should be dead long before Iron Skin has even expired."

 

Only if you spam Radial Blast (which is I think, what you meant, rather than "stomp", which is currently broken and didn't clear rooms to begin with).

 

Otherwise, you're talking nonsense. I've seen Iron Skin run out of juice very quickly indeed, simply because two toxic ancients attacked me at the same time. And that was fully ranked, on a mid-level infested def mission.

 

 

I suspect what people mean when they say that the Loki is a better tank...is that the Loki has better control of the situation. He can pop a decoy, take zero damage, and pop the decoy again when it dies, all for minimal energy cost. With the swap teleport, he can even forcibly remove teammates from dangerous situations, or remove dangerous situations from teammates.

 

This is not, to be clear, strictly speaking "tanking", as the Loki isn't the one taking damage/being targetted.

 

Nevertheless, due to the now unpredictable nature of Iron Skin (there is no HUD indication that it's about to break, and since we're not taking damage to shields or health, we can't even see how much damage mobs are dealing out), the Rhino does not have this luxury of "control". All the Rhino can do is burn all his energy quickly, and spam attacks.

 

 

"Unless you just have yours modded wrong he should have optimum crowd control and defense."

 

Optimal crowd control? Are we talking about the same Warframe here? Rhino can knock enemies down, or er...

 

...knock them down some more? Occasionally make them hit him for a while?

 

 

"but I haven't seen anything lacking from Rhino. If anything he's still the standard I'm measuring the other frames by."

 

Not sure if serious or just trolling.

 

Even the developers themselves have acknowledged that work needs to be done on the Rhino...

[Wooben]

15 seconds of complete invulnerability is a joke. Rhino is fine right now. I play him solo and he feels stronger than any of my other frames. He feels weak now because you have to actually think while playing him. Old Rhino took barely any skill to use, you just pop your skin and can do anything you want. People are just sour now because they have to be able to position themselves correctly and catch up in skill to all the other players using the normal frames.

[Vitriolic_Crux]

Died every single time I used Iron Skin in T3 Exterminate today.  I only used it when it was getting dangerous and was the focus of a lot of attacks.  The skill simply doesn't serve its purpose except at low levels of play.  It should work regardless of the level of enemy.  As someone said before the 80% damage reduction was ten times better than the way it is now.

[Firebat86]

Died every single time I used Iron Skin in T3 Exterminate today.  I only used it when it was getting dangerous and was the focus of a lot of attacks.  The skill simply doesn't serve its purpose except at low levels of play.  It should work regardless of the level of enemy.  As someone said before the 80% damage reduction was ten times better than the way it is now.

 Funny thing is all the people still crying foul are the same one's with their undies in a bunch when it WAS the 80% reduction! Cried more and got to where it is now.  Like I've said before, he needs work, but at the same time he's no where near as broke/useless as people say he is.  Now you have to think when you play.  Not smash 2 buttons and do absolutely no thinking b/c you are a magically invulnerable space ninja....

[vieuxchat]

Instead of actual damage, the IS could absord a number of hits ? So the scale would be with number of shot sand not with damage from guns. A bit like a spell from D&D where you were invincible from the next x attacks.

[Oinkathan]

The problem is that the class wasn't designed with this cap, yes he is meant to be tank like, which he works fine as at lower levels, but even I can run around on any other Warframe with decent shield and feel reasonably safe.

 

His Iron Skin now scales horribly though, every other warframe that has an ability to make them self more defensive works the same way it does while fighting level 10s and fighting level 90s,  Iron Skin doesn't, you hit the 60+ mark for enemies and it is gone within 2 seconds.

 

Back to his design flaws, he is a close combat Warframe, similar to Excalibur, even his defense scales to be the same, the current Iron Skin leaves a lot of his other attacks useless on many NPC's that he should be able to go near.  Iron Skin is just uselss when fighting something that does crazy damage, you HAVE to change your play style, you no longer can rely on your ability which works in some situations to be competely useless in these stronger levels.  

 

The whole tank argument is valid, the taunt is fine for lower level stuff, but it falls off and becomes a hindrance later on, having to revive the rhino can cause serious problems when having to do it so frequently.

 

Just make it scale better, many other Warframes can just run around doing things 'easymode' as well, energy isn't infinite though, there are still things that can go wrong and kill people.  

[fishworshipper]

Died every single time I used Iron Skin in T3 Exterminate today.  I only used it when it was getting dangerous and was the focus of a lot of attacks.  The skill simply doesn't serve its purpose except at low levels of play.  It should work regardless of the level of enemy.  As someone said before the 80% damage reduction was ten times better than the way it is now.

Learn how to dodge attacks, and Iron Skin works VERY well, even on very high level missions.

Draw the bullets from your teammates without killing yourself in the process? YES PLEASE.

[ManTouch]

"Enemies should be dead long before Iron Skin has even expired."

 

Only if you spam Radial Blast (which is I think, what you meant, rather than "stomp", which is currently broken and didn't clear rooms to begin with).

 

Otherwise, you're talking nonsense. I've seen Iron Skin run out of juice very quickly indeed, simply because two toxic ancients attacked me at the same time. And that was fully ranked, on a mid-level infested def mission.

 

 

I suspect what people mean when they say that the Loki is a better tank...is that the Loki has better control of the situation. He can pop a decoy, take zero damage, and pop the decoy again when it dies, all for minimal energy cost. With the swap teleport, he can even forcibly remove teammates from dangerous situations, or remove dangerous situations from teammates.

 

This is not, to be clear, strictly speaking "tanking", as the Loki isn't the one taking damage/being targetted.

 

Nevertheless, due to the now unpredictable nature of Iron Skin (there is no HUD indication that it's about to break, and since we're not taking damage to shields or health, we can't even see how much damage mobs are dealing out), the Rhino does not have this luxury of "control". All the Rhino can do is burn all his energy quickly, and spam attacks.

 

 

"Unless you just have yours modded wrong he should have optimum crowd control and defense."

 

Optimal crowd control? Are we talking about the same Warframe here? Rhino can knock enemies down, or er...

 

...knock them down some more? Occasionally make them hit him for a while?

 

 

"but I haven't seen anything lacking from Rhino. If anything he's still the standard I'm measuring the other frames by."

 

Not sure if serious or just trolling.

 

Even the developers themselves have acknowledged that work needs to be done on the Rhino...

Yeah, I meant Radial Blast. I'm not sure how you're using Rhino, but I haven't had any problems with Iron Skin failing me that badly. My Rhino rarely just knocks enemies down. I usually kill them. The same old combo of Iron Skin and Radial Blast hasn't failed me yet in the thickest of infestation missions. I usually still have Iron Skin up after the mobs are gone. Maybe it could be the weapons people are using, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how the enemies are living longer than the Iron Skin is lasting for some people. 

 

Bosses are a different matter now of course. I can't just run into them anymore and expect to live until Iron Skin fades, but I can use it to position myself for Rhino stomp and disable them that way. The tactics change, but I don't see how it's made Iron Skin less useful. Instead of god mode, it's a tactical block that, for me at least, can last long enough to handle most situations.

 

Work needs to be done on every Warframe, but I get better results from Rhino than I have from most of the others I've played who seem to be one-skill wonders. I don't have any useless kills on Rhino even after the Iron Skin nerf. Escape/mobility, defense, aoe damage, aoe stun. Even with his 4th ability being his worst it is still useful in most boss fights. I'm not having energy problems either, but I use Energy Siphon.