*(Idea Pitch)* Mod Synergies

[Helwig]

So, I have been thinking about the Mod system (which I love by the way) trying to see if there way a way to spice things up a bit. Adding some random/chance perks can keep things interesting while having the player fine tune their "mod-board" to the max.

What I have come up with is what I like to call: Synergies

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A Synergy is the interaction between two mods in the correct location when the random hidden perk has been unlocked. It is unlocked by attaining the correct rank (or maximum in some mods' case) and then applying a Forma (or some other future amp item).

Now, since the perks are random, we could do something like, making the first perk free and then using Forma to re-roll the mod for a different perk.

But let me start an Example. Lets grab the Cryo Rounds mod for Rifles / Long Guns.

The mod brand new and then the mod maxed out with the option to "Synergize".

Once the "Synergization" (lol) , or rather the unlocking of the Synergy is complete, they would display the name of the Synergy and the direction in which it synergizes.

• The name hints at what mod it synergizes to
• Where that mod has to be on the mod board

(displayed as the green gradient as I cannot animate a .gif in a proper amount of time).

In this Example we have what follows, and both traits are random. So the direction doesn't necessarily stay the same with the perk that appears.

Cryo Rounds

• Perk: Icicle
• Synergizes Up

Serration

• Perk: Frost Bite
• Synergizes Right

For this, lets say the Cryo Rounds mod has to synergize with "Piercing Hit" mod to unlock the perk "Icicle". Once unlocked, the perk gives Cryo Rounds "5% Freeze Damage to Bypass Shields" for example.

Or, lets say the Serration mod has to synergize with "Cryo Rounds" mod to unlock the perk "Frost Bite". Once unlocked, the perk gives Serration "Damage dealt has a 3% chance to freeze enemies"

Those are just some examples of what they COULD do.

And this is something how it COULD look.

Where blue is correct synergy and red is no/bad synergy.

I am interested in what you guys think of the IDEA more so than the specific perk examples.

Throw me some rep if ya like it and dont wanna comment =P

Edited May 30, 2013 by Helwig

[Uyie]

I like the idea of having them do +x% of y when they're in correlation with another mod on the deck. Makes us think more about how we set them out, how we polarize etc.

 

Pro photoshop btw xD

Edited May 30, 2013 by Uyie

[Helwig]

Yeah because at the moment, it doesn't matter where you polarize. This will make people think about what they gotta do. And lol. Nothin pro about it xD. Took me like 5 to 10 mins tops.

Forma, atleast for me, has been dropping like hotcakes. Might as well make them even more useful =P

Edited May 30, 2013 by Helwig

[Helwig]

Shameless Self Bump

[MXXVI]

This is a good idea.

 

BUT

 

You'd need to be very careful with mod cost/balance, otherwise the divide between potato'd weapons and non-potato'd weapons would increase too much.

 

Essentially, you'd be allowing sort of "doubled-up" mods to be used in a weapon that already has double the mod capacity...and it would become very easy to just equip "ALL the effects!!11!" and have a gun that shoots icefireshock while launching bees at people and baking a cake.

 

 

I know, that's a teeny bit of an exaggeration, but I just thought I'd play devil's advocate a bit.

 

It is a cool idea though. You got my vote.

[Helwig]

Maybe in Forma'ing a Perk into a Mod would make the mod cost a bit more then. But again, the point of the perks arent to completely SuperCharge the mod; we are talkin' small percentages.

[Onite]

You had me at synergies until i saw that you want this to consume forma. Given how many times you swap out mods constantly, forma is a terrible idea. Instead it should be a placement/adjacent card pattern system, that way you cant just shamelessly stack bonuses with no repercussions. Like if you fit them together like a jigsaw puzzle, you only have so much space to do this, which is a good thing. Alittle more depth to mods could be nice, but thats a core gameplay aspect that platinum should stay out of, especially when it locks out your freedom to experiment.

[Ferriwind]

Easy to implement and a great customization idea. Only problem is players have already polarized their slots.

[neKroMancer]

You had me at synergies until i saw that you want this to consume forma. Given how many times you swap out mods constantly, forma is a terrible idea. Instead it should be a placement/adjacent card pattern system, that way you cant just shamelessly stack bonuses with no repercussions. Like if you fit them together like a jigsaw puzzle, you only have so much space to do this, which is a good thing. Alittle more depth to mods could be nice, but thats a core gameplay aspect that platinum should stay out of, especially when it locks out your freedom to experiment.

I like this one more. For me, mod system is already like a card game and it would be more fun synergize them through placing them adjacent to one another. However, this will also create more advanced slot pattern which player has to figure out how to take advantage of it.

It would be problematic if you have to reconfigure your weapon in a hurry though.

[Helwig]

Given how many times you swap out mods constantly...

-I- actually dont constantly swap out mods. Each warframe I use has a "set build" so to speak. I have most of my cards maxed out and at this point I am rarely on the Mod screen, which got me thinking.

Think of it as a "end game" for modding.

And it doesn't necessarily need to be forma. I did state: "(or some other future amp item)."

 

it would be more fun synergize them through placing them adjacent to one another.

That's what I am showing in the first Post. You see the one card is blue because its is adjacent to the correct card. Where as the other card is red, denoting that the perk is inactive due to the card not being adjacent to the correct card.

Unless you mean the Perk. at which point that just becomes another mod?

Edited June 1, 2013 by Helwig

[Denninja]

I'd love this, as long as chance/randomness is minimized or omitted.

 

The concept gives an incentive to focus on maxing pairs of mods instead of just filling all slots.

 

I'd like some synergy effects to be stronger than in your examples, while increasing mod capacity cost,

making weapons with focused elements more viable.

How about this:

Synergizing in one direction unlocks one effect, while the same mods aligned in another direction unlocks an alternate version of that same effect.

One match doesn't affect mod capacity cost, while the alternate is an amplified version that is stronger yet increases cost.

This provides strategy to the placement of each mod, limiting how many of which synergy alignment is possible simultaneously,

as well as allowing the focus of mod capacity into fewer mods to greater effect.

Having all elements equipped being mandatory to maximize damage just seems dull to me, I'd like to see some 1-2 element weapons.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Denninja

[Onite]

-I- actually dont constantly swap out mods. Each warframe I use has a "set build" so to speak. I have most of my cards maxed out and at this point I am rarely on the Mod screen, which got me thinking.

Think of it as a "end game" for modding.

And it doesn't necessarily need to be forma. I did state: "(or some other future amp item)."

 

That's what I am showing in the first Post. You see the one card is blue because its is adjacent to the correct card. Where as the other card is red, denoting that the perk is inactive due to the card not being adjacent to the correct card.

Unless you mean the Perk. at which point that just becomes another mod?

Everyone i know even endgame, often switches out mods for certain missions. Locking them in at all nomatter whats used, it just puts a freeze on being able to switch anything out. And on top of that, rewards you with high amounts of power for not even bothering with experimentation. Its just hitching your mods forever with a "if its not broken dont fix it." mentality. I feel like thats really bad due to people are going to just synergize as many damage things as possible. Especially if the synergy only requires two cards. Example: if you made a synergy between a damage mod and a damage mod, that gives more damage. Its just going to be that: A next to B for more damage. Its a no brainer and theres no depth to it. And it discourages you from doing otherwise. A better idea is to make it work with polarity, or a new system just like polarity, but works in conjunction combinations with the same polarity family. Example: Having Magazine warp on the board with speed trigger will increase magazine warp depending on the rank of speed trigger. But if you put down magazine warp and fast hands next to eachother, then speed trigger will boost fast hands. But only with magazine warp present. This way you have a large recipe list to mess with without need of another cash shop or grindy RNG installation fee. Its also NOT overpowered as it requires more than one mod of not the same type. The builds are then NOT based on stacking purely damage.

 

Even if you dont personally swap mods alot, a feature like this that does encourage it makes mods interesting again. Mods shouldnt be something you just have a "best" set that you have as a goal then stop as soon as you get there. Even introducing advantages you dont even get as mods that can only be obtained through synergy is another feat that should seriously be considered. The goal should be "unique working builds." not "Best DPS combination."

[neKroMancer]

-I- actually dont constantly swap out mods. Each warframe I use has a "set build" so to speak. I have most of my cards maxed out and at this point I am rarely on the Mod screen, which got me thinking.Think of it as a "end game" for modding.And it doesn't necessarily need to be forma. I did state: "(or some other future amp item)." That's what I am showing in the first Post. You see the one card is blue because its is adjacent to the correct card. Where as the other card is red, denoting that the perk is inactive due to the card not being adjacent to the correct card.Unless you mean the Perk. at which point that just becomes another mod?

Well, throw the Forma requirement out of the window and we'll talk. It's something we should have without using this resource.

However, look like I misunderstand your first post (sorry, I skimmed it through iPhone). This will certainly add more depth to customization. +1 from me.

[Helwig]

Locking them in at all nomatter whats used, it just puts a freeze on being able to switch anything out.

I never said the Synergy would lock it in it's position forever. Simply having it next to the correct mod, will give a boost, otherwise the perk is inert. You can switch the mod with the perk all you want and have no negative effects.

 

I feel like thats really bad due to people are going to just synergize as many damage things as possible.

The examples I have never suggested a straight damage increase. Infact, I am against that.

 

Having Magazine warp on the board with speed trigger will increase magazine warp depending on the rank of speed trigger.

This is generally the idea I was going for, however there has to be some way of unlocking that feature and I felt like it should be next to eachother.

 

without need of another cash shop or grindy RNG installation fee

I am starting to regret using the Forma as an EXAMPLE. I never said it had to be a Forma. Currently all we have are Orokin Reactors/Catalysts, and Formas. I wasnt gonna make some name up like "PickledPerkinator". It could be a Blueprint you buy with credits and craft and maybe be a certain Master Rank to use it.

 

The goal should be "unique working builds." not "Best DPS combination."

I couldn't agree more. That's why the examples I used weren't "Increased Damage by 5%".

[Onite]

I never said the Synergy would lock it in it's position forever. Simply having it next to the correct mod, will give a boost, otherwise the perk is inert. You can switch the mod with the perk all you want and have no negative effects.

 

The examples I have never suggested a straight damage increase. Infact, I am against that.

 

This is generally the idea I was going for, however there has to be some way of unlocking that feature and I felt like it should be next to eachother.

 

I am starting to regret using the Forma as an EXAMPLE. I never said it had to be a Forma. Currently all we have are Orokin Reactors/Catalysts, and Formas. I wasnt gonna make some name up like "PickledPerkinator". It could be a Blueprint you buy with credits and craft and maybe be a certain Master Rank to use it.

 

I couldn't agree more. That's why the examples I used weren't "Increased Damage by 5%".

I'm glad we're shooting for the same thing, but i really have a hard time trying to connect the dots on how alot of your suggestions would work. Thats why i seemed like i might have been making assumptions. Like the whole forma part. Even if its not a forma, it sounds like something of the same equivalent thats required thats just as rare, expensive, and hard to find as catalysts, forma, or reactors. I really feel like thats unhealthy for the feel of the game. Its a huge buzzkill for using this idea at all because its an unnecessary requirement. Unnecessary because its a drag to have to fetch or pay for these kinds of items and no part of that is fun. Its better just to have the aspect of experimenting with different abilities to find what suits you most, being able to change things out on the fly if it doesnt work out for you. Thats a key part because then theres no long term regret if something looked good on paper but in functionality, ended up being not what you expected. You can then find a combination that you think you like and work on upgrading it by ranking up the mods in the recipe. That part in its own right there, the ranking up is where the work/reward part becomes a satisfying goal. Not the entry ticket prices.

 

But like i said before, having a second polarity symbol on the card, synergy related types or something along with recipes involving 3 or more cards is key. Or else your dual recipe system is just going to be another "pay to win" pseudo option of a major gameplay feature.

 

Mods are already RNG based and long time goals for getting up those ranks. Dont kick it farther by making synergies require even more farming. Its just too much.

[Zyfe3rX]

In short :-

 

You can merge 2 different mods into a single mod that has multiple characteristics. According to your post, You can merge a Mod with Forma to get multiple characteristics....

 

 

Right ?

[Helwig]

In short :-

 

You can merge 2 different mods into a single mod that has multiple characteristics. According to your post, You can merge a Mod with Forma to get multiple characteristics....

 

 

Right ?

No. Not at all.

Imbuing a Mod with a perk that (the perk) is only activated when the mod itself is next to another, yet correct, mod.

[Helwig]

Even if its not a forma, it sounds like something of the same equivalent thats required thats just as rare, expensive, and hard to find as catalysts, forma, or reactors. I really feel like thats unhealthy for the feel of the game. ... Dont kick it farther by making synergies require even more farming. Its just too much.

But it really, really does not have to be. Yeah, sure, it should take some time to obtain, but the "amp" item itself could be something obtained by researching the recipe in the Dojo.

You play solo... You play with random people.. You attain ranks, weapons and frames alike. What do you have next? Clans and Dojos to get to a higher part of the game offering new weapons as we have seen, but it doesn't have to end there. Last live stream, devs were asked if they wanted to have Warframes be a thing to be able to research in the future... and they seemed interested in the idea... So why not something like this?

Doesn't necessarily even have to be an item either that does this to a mod; could be a whole new/dedicated dojo room that alters/imbues mods. And maybe it does it instantly with the correct amount of credits/materials required. And hey, if it isn't the perk you wanted, no big deal. Didn't cost to much in the first place.

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I give out all these 'what ifs' and 'maybes' because I dont know how they would implement this mechanic as it would be entirely up to Digital Extremes. However, I am also trying to convey it doesn't have to follow the practices we have seen from the game in regards to this type of situation. If we leave aside the logistical concerns now and concentrate on the mechanic itself, we can improve that so it is more complete.

I also appreciate all the constructive criticism, as I know exactly where you are coming from with your concerns as I don't want it to be entirely reliant on the RNG -- I have already felt RNG's wrath in the Void.

+1 rep to your posts

Edited June 1, 2013 by Helwig

[Onite]

But it really, really does not have to be. Yeah, sure, it should take some time to obtain, but the "amp" item itself could be something obtained by researching the recipe in the Dojo.

You play solo... You play with random people.. You attain ranks, weapons and frames alike. What do you have next? Clans and Dojos to get to a higher part of the game offering new weapons as we have seen, but it doesn't have to end there. Last live stream, devs were asked if they wanted to have Warframes be a thing to be able to research in the future... and they seemed interested in the idea... So why not something like this?

Doesn't necessarily even have to be an item either that does this to a mod; could be a whole new/dedicated dojo room that alters/imbues mods. And maybe it does it instantly with the correct amount of credits/materials required. And hey, if it isn't the perk you wanted, no big deal. Didn't cost to much in the first place.

-----

I give out all these 'what ifs' and 'maybes' because I dont know how they would implement this mechanic as it would be entirely up to Digital Extremes. However, I am also trying to convey it doesn't have to follow the practices we have seen from the game in regards to this type of situation.

I also appreciate all the constructive criticism, as I know exactly where you are coming from with your concerns as I don't want it to be entirely reliant on the RNG -- I have already felt RNG's wrath in the Void.

In the context of just having mods click with eachother randomly doesnt seem like it really needs a random on/off switch. It just doesnt make any sense to be necessary. Thats like if you needed some "spark" item just to activate/deactive weapons and warframes just so you can equip them. Just...why? Just let them do it. Its something that will heavily impact the very very core gameplay of warframe from beginning to end and adds a whole new plethora of customization to your gameplay. All this pseudo forma thing does is make you actively wait for something you should already have. It also should NOT be something endgame as well. Dojos are already pretty endgame and DE is constantly expanding on that. The farming in this game is already so terrible that thats all you're going to find yourself doing and its just BORING as hell. Because of the repetition at chance of a lottery at a chance of another lottery to gain items. It slows down the gameplay so damn much that you're going to spend most of your time OFFLINE of the damn game just waiting on crafting just to see if a combination works out for you? Thats insane and so incredibly boring. Instead you could spend countless hours enjoying the gameplay of warframe with mod combinations and different aspects of builds on missions. Freedom of customization is fun. Not long long long term blind planning. Because when plans go wrong. (Which they will when you're experimenting.) Theres nothing but regret and disappointment for how much time and commitment you spend just to try something. And that much of a turn off is just going to turn people away from the game or just ignore that aspect of synergy unless they have absolutely nothing else to do. Both outside of warframe, and inside of warframe. And if people get burned bad enough, the discouragement can actually just make you want to say "!@#$it. I'm just not going to bother."

[Helwig]

I'm not going to lie, Onite, I am not even sure what it is you actually want.

At first you sounded like you thought this was a good idea with a few problems.

Now I feel like the tone has completely changed and you want to scrap the entire thing.

But what I hope I understand from what you are saying is that, you like the idea up to Mods having Innate bonuses/perks that appear automatically when the mod is leveled. The mods can be anywhere on the board and not necessarily directly adjacent to one-another. Correct?

I also understand you don't like the example of "Forma" that we have now completely gone off track with as that small detail was just an example using a system that currently exists and was not in any way a firm part of my idea. Yes, I guess it was partially my fault for constantly replying to it.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Helwig

[Helwig]

I'd love this, as long as chance/randomness is minimized or omitted.

I can't agree more.

Omitted? ehh I donno.

Minimized? Certainly hope so.

 

The concept gives an incentive to focus on maxing pairs of mods instead of just filling all slots.

Exactly my thoughts. I like to theme my Warframes, like having Frost only having raw and freeze damage leaving out electric and fire. I also have frost set-up for a certain play-style that doesn't differ as I have other warframes for other purposes.

 

Having all elements equipped being mandatory to maximize damage just seems dull to me, I'd like to see some 1-2 element weapons.

I agree. I hate how everyone stacks damage mods and calls it a day. I want people to think about what they want more. But do not want to force them into long term planning and having them be screwed later on (which is how I KINDA feel about how Formas work.

Formas are neat, as it allows you to maximize your weapon/frame. But if you decide later that you don't want it that way anymore, you are kinda screwed. So, I definitely don't want to screw people even MORE.

[Ferriwind]

But I have all my slots polarized(not really) how do I place this mod next to this mod, do I have to re-polarize?

[Onite]

I'm not going to lie, Onite, I am not even sure what it is you actually want.

At first you sounded like you thought this was a good idea with a few problems.

Now I feel like the tone has completely changed and you want to scrap the entire thing.

But what I hope I understand from what you are saying is that, you like the idea up to Mods having Innate bonuses/perks that appear automatically when the mod is leveled. The mods can be anywhere on the board and not necessarily directly adjacent to one-another. Correct?

I also understand you don't like the example of "Forma" that we have now completely gone off track with as that small detail was just an example using a system that currently exists and was not in any way a firm part of my idea. Yes, I guess it was partially my fault for constantly replying to it.

I'll explain. Firstly, the whole forma thing is introduced at a mechanism in warframe to add more winding into obtaining more raw power. I honestly feel like the whole thing should be re worked. But using the same mechanism for something like synergy is something i think is not, and should not be necessary at all.

 

Second point, my concept of the whole "Synergy" thing. Going back to my first post. Lets say you have 3 mods on your peice of gear. Those 3 mods have the same synergy polarity and then immediantly grant a bonus whatever it may be. Because the bonus itself and the mods that are prerequisite for the synergy then are variables. Lets look at another game with a similar feature to paint a closer idea of what i'm picturing.

 

Diablo II had synergy.  http://www.diablofans.com/page/tools/skill/index.html

I want you to pick any class and then just throw a good handful of points into random skills. You'll notice at the bottom of skill descriptions youll see "receives bonuses from." Those are the synergies i'm talking about that are immediant and rely on how powerful other skills become. But of course, the skills and bonuses are completely unrelated to my ideal. In my ideal, i imagine there being alteast three mods that together, start to add cool synergies. This way you cant just pick your absolute favorites. It makes it so if you want certain synergies you've discovered, you'll need the complete recipe, which for the sake of balance, makes it so you cannot stack absurd damage. Of course i expect the synergy gained to be useful so that it adds more flavor to the game, giving you something to experiment with without becoming something OP and exploitable. Like combining Loot Radar and Enermy sense could grant you a bonus to run speed or something. But if you added in Rush, it would then change to a synergy that allowed you to slide farther without losing momentum to inertia. And the higher rank rush is, the further you slide. And the higher the rank of Enemy radar is, the bigger run bonus you get. But having all three in your table disallows you to stack all the other things you might have had, including just stacking paired synergies. 3 mod synergies should always be greater feats than 2 mod synergies. I'm just throwing that example out there off the top of my head.

 

But now that you hopefully understand where i'm understanding synergy, can you understand how i dont think putting a grindy RNG "ON" switch is necessary just to get to these? Its extremely inane. Its like making you play harvest moon for 2 days just to  -try it.-

[Cestus]

I hope this would be a feature that wouldn't require forma because skill/weapon mods are essential to guns and that forma appears to the main currency for dojos. It would add another use for forma, which there are already a lot for polarization. Adding these would seem a necessity to get.

 

 

Like the Arpg Path of Exile where they would find gem slots to link their gems. I really like this idea since it looks lit it would fit that "endgame" but a bit more dynamic in the sense that there is always a mod that would drop that you can use to improve your mods instead of just one. Unless, the directions are restricted to  mod by mod, which I think isn't from what I'm seeing, then this would add a whole lot more depth to the mod system.  I just hope getting these ain't some rng bs.

 

 

*edit* Read responses

Edited June 1, 2013 by Cestus

[Onite]

Thought of another example. There were 3 resistance mods introduced in U8. If you any of 2 of them on. You got a resistance to melee damage passively, as long as those two mods were in your mod slots. Then if you had all 3, you then gained stun resistance as well that was as strong a ratio of the 3 mods put together.