[Suggestion] ~ Elemental Mods Overhaul ~

[Aizeol]

Diablo's USEFUL utility abilities can be compared to the Warframe abilities of select frames. Other abilities in Diablo fall by the way side unless they could contribute to killing things faster and more effectively to farm for items faster. That's the biggest priority in a loot based game. To change this, you would need to remove the loot system entirely.

The problem is not needing more mods, the problem is needing more space for customization beyond damage. This is not an option we have yet, and it is not the option being looked into in this thread.

But that's what I'm trying help with. The mod system is one place to start. Beyond that, enemy variety as well as AI needs looked at. The loot system is flawed, as well as most of the game itself. Now, if you want to tackle all of that at once, be my guest and you should send your resume to DE because that is commendable.

Beyond adding weapons and objectives that don't rely on damage, adding mods to weapons to change their performance is another place to look at.

[jpvi1207]

1. No

2. Shut up

3. Charge platinum 

[ToeSama]

Beyond adding weapons and objectives that don't rely on damage, adding mods to weapons to change their performance is another place to look at.

There currently are objectives that don't rely on damage. The Raid, Spy, Sabotage and Capture missions can be ran without a lick of fighting.

I get what the main idea is, but I don't think there's a need for it right now when there are areas of the game that would actually profit from further attention at this moment, and this is not one of them. The current system does not see many mods used with any great effect other than a place holder, and those would be dropped the second an option that does something better would arise.

Adding support mods is fine, but what they would be doing, and some of the changes to existing mods being asked for in this thread, are not the solutions to the problem. Damage is king, and no other options would even trump it in regard to usefulness. To add in additional options would require additional space to provide an incentive to use them. Adding in the mods themselves does nothing to deter from using damage same as always. There's also more important matters the game needs to address right now, such as your mention of how some weapons work (or don't) and the need for an overhauled enemy AI system to give the game an actual difficulty instead of a fake one.

Edited June 9, 2013 by ToeSama

[TisEric]

1. No

2. Shut up

3. Charge platinum 

 

 

 

what......?

care to elaborate?

[Aizeol]

Very good counter points.

True, many areas in Warframe are lacking, but they must all be built with a goal in mind. Just because x isn't the main focus doesn't mean it can be ignored while y is being worked on. Either y needs to be addressed so that it will work when x is updated, or they need to be worked on at the same time.

There are multiple people in different divisions at DE, someone needs to look at adding utility to the game either in mods, or enemies, or just weapon designs in general.

This will help a lot of different problems. It would take away some of the grind since different activities could be done, as well as make some enemies more threatening by giving them some utility power as well. This isn't something that only effects one part of the game. Is it the easiest solution, no; is it the best, probably not. That being said, just because it isn't the easiest or the most important right this very second does not mean it should be ignored because of that.

Adding utility to the game will only help it and the developers and the players.

[Aizeol]

what......?

care to elaborate?

Tis a troll, pay him no mind.

[Dahrsis]

All neat and dandy, but thats the wrong approach with additional damage mods. Because basically its just a nerf with some obscure ideas in replacement which are very situational.

 

Bring in some synergy mods and you have far more to draw from.

 

Example a Fire mod. lets say 4 base and your +5% (up to 5). Thats 30% more damage (nerfed as you wished). Keep the stun against humanoid and infested.

Now add a different mod. Lets say a Continuity for weapon mods which keeps up the stun longer. Or what about a mod which turns the elemetal damage (only that portion) into a small area of effect damage. Suddenly Longswords get a new toy and rifles could get an other one with shorter radius, but still quite usefull in every circumstance.

 

Still possible to add raw elemental mods like toxic or sonic. but a nice array of Synergy mods would be a great addition in how we could build the weapons.

[Aizeol]

All neat and dandy, but thats the wrong approach with additional damage mods. Because basically its just a nerf with some obscure ideas in replacement which are very situational.

 

Bring in some synergy mods and you have far more to draw from.

 

Example a Fire mod. lets say 4 base and your +5% (up to 5). Thats 30% more damage (nerfed as you wished). Keep the stun against humanoid and infested.

Now add a different mod. Lets say a Continuity for weapon mods which keeps up the stun longer. Or what about a mod which turns the elemetal damage (only that portion) into a small area of effect damage. Suddenly Longswords get a new toy and rifles could get an other one with shorter radius, but still quite usefull in every circumstance.

 

Still possible to add raw elemental mods like toxic or sonic. but a nice array of Synergy mods would be a great addition in how we could build the weapons.

Not sure if you've been following, but the point the thread is also trying to make is that the game relies too much on straight damage.

If you take away the need for damage and put in utility, then it creates and environment where more strategies can take place besides just higherDPS=win. This came up because the elemental mods seem to have no other use, and there aren't other mods fulfilling the role of adding utility.

It shouldn't stop with mods though. Why not have "weapons" be replaced with "tools" objects that do little damage, but help maneuver or change the battlefield around to better accommodate an advanced strategy?

Your criticism is much appreciated, but slightly misplaced. The point that "we need damage mods because enemies will be too hard without them" only enforces the point that the game relies too much on damage.

[ToeSama]

This will help a lot of different problems. It would take away some of the grind since different activities could be done, as well as make some enemies more threatening by giving them some utility power as well. This isn't something that only effects one part of the game. Is it the easiest solution, no; is it the best, probably not. That being said, just because it isn't the easiest or the most important right this very second does not mean it should be ignored because of that.

Adding utility to the game will only help it and the developers and the players.

Adding in more options to be found takes away from the grind? Seriously? No, nothing would take away from the grind. Even a higher chance of getting some of the rarer stuff wouldn't take away from the grind. Only by removing the grind does one take away from it.

Not sure if you've been following, but the point the thread is also trying to make is that the game relies too much on straight damage.

If you take away the need for damage and put in utility, then it creates and environment where more strategies can take place besides just higherDPS=win. This came up because the elemental mods seem to have no other use, and there aren't other mods fulfilling the role of adding utility.

It shouldn't stop with mods though. Why not have "weapons" be replaced with "tools" objects that do little damage, but help maneuver or change the battlefield around to better accommodate an advanced strategy?

Your criticism is much appreciated, but slightly misplaced. The point that "we need damage mods because enemies will be too hard without them" only enforces the point that the game relies too much on damage.

The place for utility is virtually non existent right now due to the many other areas lacking that we have discussed. Adding in utility with nothing to do with it is not a solution. It only serves to expand other parts of the problem.

This is a game where 80% of the content is combat related. Combat focused bonuses are a given. Even if you add in non combat focused options, they would not overtake the combat portions of the game no matter what. This is not trying to add 1 to 2 to make 3. You're trying to add 1 to A. The issue the thread has and the reality of what the game is are not matching up. It will not fix anything trying to turn a combat game into a non combat game by thrusting a slew of non combat options onto the player without the inclusion of non combat problems to solve the lack of anything to do in the game but fight.

What you are suggesting is an item that MUST be reserved for later because focusing on it would detract from the much needed reworking and overhauling of the aforementioned stealth, AI, user interface and combat aspects. You are asking to have another aspect of the game put in entirely, when there are four parts of the game that can barely even be considered polished, let alone fully functional. They should come first because they are the closest to being done and ready. The area you're seeking is barely even seen outside of the occasional annoyance with hacking and stage effects.

[TisEric]

Adding in more options to be found takes away from the grind? Seriously? No, nothing would take away from the grind. Even a higher chance of getting some of the rarer stuff wouldn't take away from the grind. Only by removing the grind does one take away from it.

The place for utility is virtually non existent right now due to the many other areas lacking that we have discussed. Adding in utility with nothing to do with it is not a solution. It only serves to expand other parts of the problem.

 

 

No? yes! , giving the option for more playstyles will let you run the exact same map multiple times using different playstyles or at the very least with different approaches which equals less grind or if you prefer , more interesting grind. 

either way it makes the game more fun and experimental and varied.

 

 

it does add loads to the game -_-  .

it was never meant as a straight up solution but it IS part of the solution, the first step towards a better warframe.

[ToeSama]

No? yes! , giving the option for more playstyles will let you run the exact same map multiple times using different playstyles or at the very least with different approaches which equals less grind or if you prefer , more interesting grind.

Except it will last all of a couple seconds for most players when they decide to go back to something that gets the grind over with faster (like more damage) so they can get what they're really after sooner. This is the reality. In a loot based game where combat is the central focus, damage is king, and no amount of utility gimmick will ever change that. Utility must instead be built around damage and combat, not as a replacement. I have not seen any ideas in this thread that try to do such a thing.

A gimmick like utility weapon mods need a place to shine. They do not have one, and I highly doubt that we will see one in time when there are so many other aspects of the game that need a good spit and polish in order to make the game ready to get out of beta. Find out a way to make them shine in combat rather than in spite of it, shine in addition to damage mods rather than in spite of them or as a replacement to, and you may have an idea that bears fruit. As it is now, the concept does not have merit in improving upon anything the existing system is doing. It would just be more fluff to fill up the drop lists that keep people from getting the good rare mods and items that they're actually after.

Edited June 10, 2013 by ToeSama

[TisEric]

Except it will last all of a couple seconds for most players when they decide to go back to something that gets the grind over with faster (like more damage) so they can get what they're really after sooner. This is the reality. In a loot based game where combat is the central focus, damage is king, and no amount of utility gimmick will ever change that. Utility must instead be built around damage and combat, not as a replacement. I have not seen any ideas in this thread that try to do such a thing.

A gimmick like utility weapon mods need a place to shine. They do not have one, and I highly doubt that we will see one in time when there are so many other aspects of the game that need a good spit and polish in order to make the game ready to get out of beta. Find out a way to make them shine in combat rather than in spite of it, shine in addition to damage mods rather than in spite of them or as a replacement to, and you may have an idea that bears fruit. As it is now, the concept does not have merit in improving upon anything the existing system is doing. It would just be more fluff to fill up the drop lists that keep people from getting the good rare mods and items that they're actually after.

 

depends highly on opinions that is , whose to say a utility wont let you clear faster.

make utility viable combat option is what i said from the start tis why this is an overhaul and not just a mods suggestion. 

 

you don't need places for them to shine , players are the one who should make utility skills shine.

you practice and get good enough to use the utility that compliments your style so that you become better for it.

it shouldn't be an after thought in the combat system just because right now the damage is the best option.

 

 

grind and every thing related to it is subject to change with more content on the way , the game being designed for only max dps builds is not.

[Dahrsis]

Not sure if you've been following, but the point the thread is also trying to make is that the game relies too much on straight damage.

If you take away the need for damage and put in utility, then it creates and environment where more strategies can take place besides just higherDPS=win. This came up because the elemental mods seem to have no other use, and there aren't other mods fulfilling the role of adding utility.

It shouldn't stop with mods though. Why not have "weapons" be replaced with "tools" objects that do little damage, but help maneuver or change the battlefield around to better accommodate an advanced strategy?

Your criticism is much appreciated, but slightly misplaced. The point that "we need damage mods because enemies will be too hard without them" only enforces the point that the game relies too much on damage.

You´re right i haven´t followed the thread, but thought after the opening post i throw my opinion in.

 

Still think i give an alternative which i honestly think can work and i indeed would like to see. On one hand i understand the OP because he is right in that the current mod selection is extremly rigid, as ToeSama said, in this environment damage is King.

 

Question would be, do we want to change that status quo, or do we want other tools?

Edited June 10, 2013 by Dahrsis

[Aizeol]

Question would be, do we want to change that status quo, or do we want other tools?

Right now, I'd rather have more options than just straight damage and fighting with numbers. It may not work, and I am ready to admit defeat, but I'd like to see it attempted before the rest of the game is too polished to go back and try anything.

@ToeSama

I understand your points. This game needs work in a lot of areas, but if they are all finished there will be no room to go back and change anything. When everything is still in the experimental phase, that is when you should look for new ideas if the ones you have maybe aren't working like intended.

Again, I get that right now damage is everything and I don't believe that is the limit of Warframe's potential.

[TisEric]

Right now, I'd rather have more options than just straight damage and fighting with numbers. It may not work, and I am ready to admit defeat, but I'd like to see it attempted before the rest of the game is too polished to go back and try anything.

@ToeSama

I understand your points. This game needs work in a lot of areas, but if they are all finished there will be no room to go back and change anything. When everything is still in the experimental phase, that is when you should look for new ideas if the ones you have maybe aren't working like intended.

Again, I get that right now damage is everything and I don't believe that is the limit of Warframe's potential.

 

my feelings exactly.

[ToeSama]

depends highly on opinions that is , whose to say a utility wont let you clear faster.

make utility viable combat option is what i said from the start tis why this is an overhaul and not just a mods suggestion.

The only utility that makes the grind easier is defense and crowd control, and we already have mods for these things. Some of them don't even work well towards their intended goal. Past this, other utility options are underused and overrated in their rarity and drop ratios. Some of the base utility coded into the game is so annoying it makes the grind worse just by being there. Hell, we have a block function, and I never even see ANYONE using it, even in a pub game.

The overhaul aspect is quite largely where this falls flat. The mod system is one of the few good things the game has right now that works well and still has plenty of room to grow. Changing it dramatically would set it back quite a bit, and require the game on a whole to be rebalanced around the changes. It's too much work for not enough return. Simply making the things that exist now work and work in a way that doesn't slow the player down and keep ample room for additional content in the future is a better solution.

Utility is a sticky area in a game like this one, because unless it relates to either combat, movement or increasing drop chances/rarity chances in its simplest form, it will likely be undervalued by the community at large. I would sooner see no utility mods than to see crappy utility mods. Some of the mod ideas in this threat I wouldn't even think twice about pitching to my Hornet Strike.

you don't need places for them to shine , players are the one who should make utility skills shine.

you practice and get good enough to use the utility that compliments your style so that you become better for it.

it shouldn't be an after thought in the combat system just because right now the damage is the best option.

Realistically, damage is the only option. Even some of the better existing utility mods are ultimately still about damage (Thunderbolt and Retribution for example), be it doing more damage, or taking less damage. Certain Warframe skills continually get frowned upon in certain play modes due to lack of damage output, or damage that fails to grow with enemy strength in higher levels. Some mods don't see use because they can't impact weapons/frames in a way that helps them to take the enemy out any quicker or more consistently. Some weapons themselves don't even see use because they are just sub par in general.

Damage is not the end all be all in regard to getting things done in all games, but it's still all about damage in regard to what THIS game is capable of right now. The game can't even get movement down right without mucking it up in one way or another. I don't trust it to be able to make utility mods work in a way that measures on equal footing to boosting DPS output right now.

grind and every thing related to it is subject to change with more content on the way , the game being designed for only max dps builds is not.

Grind is subject to change for the worse before the better with additional content. It's called bloat. Games tend to do it a lot. It happened big time with the introduction of the new mod and material drop in the game right now.

The game being built towards DPS output isn't a bad thing in and of itself, especially when the game is so naked in spite of the content available. It at the very least has plenty of room to grow when all other areas of major importance are polished out well enough to not need to be hot fixed every week or so.

Again, I don't think the idea of mods that have a more utility purpose than a combat purpose is bad, but I don't think now is the time to implement it, or even conceptualize heavily on it. The game is advertised as a fast paced space ninja shoot and slasher. In reality, the derogatory nickname of "Warfarm" does a better job of selling it as it is; a slow, sluggish grind that continues to bounce on certain aspects of its core design, looking more like a regular old 3rd person shooter than anything else. I do not want to see Warfarm being dragged on longer because we're trying to add in yet another feature before we've finished the mountain of other incomplete and broken problems lying around. I'd much rather see such ideas implemented when we can finally get around to playing Warframe instead.

If you want utility sooner, I suggest taking mods out of the thought process, and look instead at base line mechanics to add in to the controls and user interface as a given. It would be much more welcome for an idea to be standard in the game than it would to be another grind and equip item that may or may not ever even see a lick of use outside of a very small demographic of players.

Right now, I'd rather have more options than just straight damage and fighting with numbers. It may not work, and I am ready to admit defeat, but I'd like to see it attempted before the rest of the game is too polished to go back and try anything.

More options only increases the grind as the grind exists right now. It's half of the reason I am very against it. The new materials and mods that were added are proof enough of the things that can go wrong with the current drop system, and they've only recently got the defense rewards set in a way that makes running endless defense feel profitable.

It isn't that we don't need more mods. We just need a better chance to see all mods. And if they won't give us this, then we need a trade function before even more new mod options get put in.

I understand your points. This game needs work in a lot of areas, but if they are all finished there will be no room to go back and change anything. When everything is still in the experimental phase, that is when you should look for new ideas if the ones you have maybe aren't working like intended.

Again, I get that right now damage is everything and I don't believe that is the limit of Warframe's potential.

This is my feelings exactly. The problem is, where you see a game that is in the experimental phase, I see a game that has not even begun to break into that phase. Half of the content in the game is meant only to artificially drag out the play time and provide a fake difficulty that is more annoying than challenging, all the while they continue to debug and recode things to work in a proper enough fashion that people are actually having FUN with the grind.

The game as it stands is still very deep in beta. So deep that I actually fear them not having a game to live up to the very serious hype in time to be a release title on the next gen systems. It needs more work, period. Adding in drastically new ideas, and changing the entire way existing options works, is not a great way to make forward movement. There's far too many road blocks the game is currently facing to even attempt to play around with stuff like this.

[TisEric]

good points.

 

iam not looking to overhaul the mod system its clearly a good feature.

i just want to make  specificly the elemental mods and mods like it that are supposed to be utility mods be focused on the actual utility.

you have many good points and i agree with most of it except that we should wait for the game to be more complete.

 

we are at beta, literally the experimental phase.

if we wait for the game to progress with the current instability and the regretably slow progress of actual fixes to the core game.

we will end up in a situation where the devs back themselves into a corner and they will just keep making max dps based content and design descisions  at which point we cant expect them to ever rebalance the game to support multiple builds and playstyles.

 

but if we throw a wrench into that design choice while the game is largly incomplete. we will have a period of chaos that is true, but we will hopfully get a much more balanced , varied and better game.

but that largly depends on the developers conviction to make the effort.

Edited June 11, 2013 by TisEric

[ToeSama]

iam not looking to overhaul the mod system its clearly a good feature.

i just want to make specificly the elemental mods and mods like it that are supposed to be utility mods be focused on the actual utility.

you have many good points and i agree with most of it except that we should wait for the game to be more complete.

we are at beta, literally the experimental phase.

if we wait for the game to progress with the current instability and the regretably slow progress of actual fixes to the core game. we will end up in a situation where the devs back themselves into a corner and they will just keep making max dps based content and design descisions at which point we cant expect them to ever rebalance the game to support multiple builds and playstyles.

but if we throw a wrench into that design choice while the game is largly incomplete. we will have a period of chaos that is true, but we will hopfully get a much more balanced , varied and better game.

but that largly depends on the developers conviction to make the effort.

The aspects of damage focus do not need to be changed for such goals to see light though. It's not conducive to what the game has established, both from a balance standpoint and a time standpoint. Instead of changing the mods from elemental damage to elemental utility, why not add utility effects to the mods as they are instead, or even to the elements themselves? Fire and electricity already have stunning properties when enemies flail about or shake in place when burned or zapped respectively, so there's a slight bit of utility to the mods already where keeping affected enemies from attacking you for a moment is concerned. There's no need to remove damage as an option when you can add both depth to the existing mods, and depth to the enemy AI in order to take advantage of such alterations to existing content against players. If the Fire element had a more consistent DoT threat to it, for example, I'd damn sure be avoiding the Grineer fire troops a lot more.

The word overhaul invokes the idea of a heavy amount of work on both rebuilding and rebalancing, which we don't really have the time for at this point. I'd rather see mods placate to both styles and have the enemy AI adjusted and improved upon to answer those changes than to see parts of the system toyed with to potentially no benefit, or even detrimental results. It's not like the enemy AI wasn't in need of such a boost to begin with after all.

[TisEric]

~bump