Forma Value By Comparison - Priced Inaccurately.

[Enot83]

Original Post

 

Forma is one of the newest items to warframe. It is used for doing a great deal of things to extend the playtime of the player. The amount of effort required in obtaining Forma for the amount of uses it has tends to obscure what the goal is.

 

* For five dollars you can buy 75 Platinum.

* Forma costs 20 Platinum.

* You get 3.25 Forma for five dollars.

* Forma in this equation is about $1.54 each.

 

Now let us review the cost of a weapon from the Market:

 

* 143 is the average Platinum Cost of a weapon from the market.

* For ten dollars you receive 170 Platinum.

* You get about 1.2 Weapons per ten dollars.

* Each weapon costs about $8.34 average.

 

Now you do get a weapon slot, which is 6 Platinum, and a Orokin Catalyst, which is 20 platinum, each time you purchase a weapon for platinum. You save 26 Platinum every time you buy a weapon from the market which is about $1.72.

 

Now we examine the uses of Forma.

 

* Forma is used in crafting the new Clan Weapons.

* Even though you can only use a Forma once, you can polarize weapons and warframes an infinite amount times as long as you have the Forma.

* Forma is used to expand the Clan Dojo.

 

Now we examine an item with a similar cost the Orokin Catalyst:

 

* Is used to upgrade any weapon crafted or obtained not through a market purchase.

 

There is a large difference between the two. There are approximately 75 weapons in the game currently. This means you would need 75 Catalysts to apply one to every weapon if it was crafted.

 

* There are many polarity slots to a weapon. If you were to apply a Forma to every slot, you would need Forma per slot you wanted to modify. There are some weapons that have at least one polarity slot which would reduce this.

* Warframes also can use Forma like weapons.

* The Basic Clan Research setup currently requires 75 Forma.

* The alpha Clan Weapons require one forma each for crafting.

 

==Compromise==

How do I propose a compromise in making Forma valuable to be bought, and valuable to earn?

 

The Cost of 20 Platinum would be a great cost if it was used in the same dynamic as Catalysts and Reactors, but it's used in a great deal more. Since you need more of them, the demand for them is higher. The low supply of Forma from Orokin Void missions, Alert Missions, and the daily login rewards make players look to other ways to obtain Forma. The only other way they can get the supply they need is from the market.

 

Players look at the fact they can only get 3 Forma, when they really want more, for five dollars as bad. Why? Because they want more.

 

Players should keep playing, and Forma does that. To make players play longer, give them more. What I propose firstly is that the market purchase provides four Forma. Keep in mind, players have to spend at least five dollars to buy a single set of these. The idea is that the player gets Forma for their Primary, Secondary, Melee, and Warframe. They will then level these up again and buy Forma again to add more to themselves. It takes about one to two weeks for a player to reach 30. By even doing this once, you have made your player play your game for longer.

 

For those who don't wish to pay, you still want to support them. You want to let them know you care, but you can also make their life easy if they only spend a few dollars. Allow players who have successfully leveled at least four items, weapons or warframes, to thirty to participate in a mission that can be performed weekly for one Forma Blueprint. This allows players to progress over time, but doesn't make it easy. It will be much easier to simply buy Forma over earning it still.

 

With as much as Forma can be used, this would greatly make you question what is worth more of your time? Five dollars where I can get Forma and other things I want? Or do I want to get a blueprint, get the materials, and to wait twenty-four hours to apply the forma to re-level my weapon up while I wait on my next piece to do it again next week?

 

There was a response by the OP on that wiki page (are you the op or did you find this there and place it here?) that indicated getting more forma for the same cost might be more desirable.  This goes back to my original post, and gives more back ground to what forma is used for, how and additional methods/suggestions for acquiring forma.  How this also keeps people playing longer through the re-leveling of equipment as well.

 

If that was the intent, then +1.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[NotaCobra]

Catalyst caps you at 60 slots.

 

Forma, theoretically, caps you at 120 slots, given enough doses.

 

Forma allows further growth than a catalyst.

These days, reactors and catalysts are a staple in almost every weapon or warframe.

While strong, they still force players to choose how high to level mods, or which mods to equip, with forma, one is able to reach a weapons theoretical maximum potential.

 

To get from 1/10-5/10 takes nothing but effort, from 5/10 to 9/10 takes 20 plat

The last 1/10 takes a lot of time, effort and money.

Just like most games in this genre.

[Enot83]

Catalyst caps you at 60 slots.

 

Forma, theoretically, caps you at 120 slots, given enough doses.

 

Forma allows further growth than a catalyst.

These days, reactors and catalysts are a staple in almost every weapon or warframe.

While strong, they still force players to choose how high to level mods, or which mods to equip, with forma, one is able to reach a weapons theoretical maximum potential.

 

To get from 1/10-5/10 takes nothing but effort, from 5/10 to 9/10 takes 20 plat

The last 1/10 takes a lot of time, effort and money.

Just like most games in this genre.

 

Forma does not theoretically cap you at 120 slots.  You are using catalyst/reactors to bloat your figures.

 

Warframes capacity are 30.  You can reduce all mods put in by 1/2 with 10 forma (200 platinum) effectively doubling the existing capacity.  Or you can put a single catalyst in your warframe (20 platinum) to accomplish the exact same thing.

 

Your argument of 120, the 60 additional here goes either way, either 60 is from spending 200 plat on forma or the 60 is from 1 catalyst.

For weapons, its not as bad due to their being only 8 slots, as such you've only had to spend 160 platinum to accomplish the same thing as 1 reactor.

 

For forma to behave the way you imply, it requires a catalyst/reactor, so no forma on its own does not allow you to reach a theoretical maximum, neither does a catalyst/reactor, both forma and catalyst/reactors are required.  Forma being the inferior way to maximize your warframe/weapon in comparison to a catalyst/reactor.

 

Additionally the current maximum is 111 capacity required on a warframe.  This is by shoving in the highest costing in descending order until the warframe is full.  Ignoring if it would even be useful to have those as opposed to other mods which may have lower costs and existing polarities.

 

The point here being that:

Forma takes more money or farming, more time to re-level, restricts those slots to that specific polarity when achieving the maximum potential of forma.

 

All of this can be done by a couple clicks for 1/10th and 1/8th the cost (warframe/weapon) by a catalyst/reactor.

 

Lets even suppose for a moment that forma was 1/4 the cost it is now.  It would still cost 50/40 plat for warframe/weapons respectively to accomplish the exact same thing a catalyst/reactor does.  This still follows your arbitrary and flawed model that not only should something take more time, but apparently in games they should start charging you more as you get close to the end.

 

I'd really like to see that theory of yours applied in MMO's.... I can see it now, raid reaches the final boss, everyone's screen suddenly freezes and goes dark, a popup appears, notifying them that, after all this time and effort to get there along with their money they spent already for the game and subscription, now due to you being at this boss, your monthly subscription has gone up, because you're on the final 1/10th of the "end-game".

 

What you've failed to grasp is, the math that was already done showing the worst case scenario to make forma as valuable as it possibly could be, and how grossly overpriced it is.  In addition to, it is not that these need to be across the board equal in price, but for the price to be this ridiculous and people not even grasp that it is and simply blindly argue that its fair with no relevant information to provide is a detriment to the community, and potentially to the game to make mistakes like this.

 

Hey I could be wrong though, maybe its not a mistake maybe it is ridiculous and its just a huge money grab, due to the over use of forma for things in U8.  To as individuals blindly defend it though? That's just absurd.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Enot83

[kaizoku222]

Catalyst caps you at 60 slots.

 

Forma, theoretically, caps you at 120 slots, given enough doses.

 

Forma allows further growth than a catalyst.

These days, reactors and catalysts are a staple in almost every weapon or warframe.

While strong, they still force players to choose how high to level mods, or which mods to equip, with forma, one is able to reach a weapons theoretical maximum potential.

 

To get from 1/10-5/10 takes nothing but effort, from 5/10 to 9/10 takes 20 plat

The last 1/10 takes a lot of time, effort and money.

Just like most games in this genre.

 

Read the thread, it has already been explained that since any given frame/weapon can only have 2 mods that cost 15 points on them at a time, each forma can, at its most efficient, only give you 7 mod points to work with. Presuming an item already has 1 polarization (which is standard) that means you only really "gain" 7 new polarized slots. If that first slot is not a "V" polarity, you will gain 2 of those through forma for the two 15 point mods. So let's do an average case demonstration for the max possible mod points that can be gained through forma.

 

Like I said, we'll take an average rifle (since frames already have 4 polarized slots, already reducing the effectiveness of forma). Given 1 "dash" polarity, your use of forma, if you're being as efficient as you can, will look like this:

1st forma, V slot (multishot) gain 7 mod points

2nd forma, V slot (serration) gain 7 mod points

3rd forma, dash slot (already have one, so 9 point elemental mod here) gain 4 points

4th forma, dash slot (9 point elemental) gain 4 points

5th forma, dash slot (last 9 point elemental) gain 4 points

6th forma, dash slot (fire rate, 9 point mod) gain 4 points

7th forma, dash slot (mag capacity, 9 points) gain 4 points

 

This loadout (multishot, serration, the 4 elements, fire rate, and mag capacity) would cost 80 mod points on a rifle with a dash polarity. 7 forma, which would cost 140 plat, at the very best recoups 34 mod points. Meaning with both a catalyst and 7 forma a rifle could actually hold these mods with 14 points wasted since the weapon is full.

 

It takes 7 forma to beat what a single catalyst can do for a weapon, and past a certain point the returns on forma diminishes if you're already using a catalyst since you only have 8 mods slots, and keep in mind this is the most efficient use of forma on one of the most costly mod pools. Forma is not worth as much as catalysts or reactors, we need far too much of it for too many reasons for it to cost anything more than 5 plat, if it should even cost plat at all.

[Enot83]

Glad to see that there are some who at least grasp such a simple concept...

[Timmuk]

Forma at 20 plat is alright, and cheap, but you need a lot more of them than reactors, they need to increase the drop rate slightly, as the BP are getting old to get in the Void....and they need to make the key pack cheaper, or also add in a T2 and T3 key and 3 randoms

 

as of right now 75 plat for 1 T3 and 4 T1s is not worth it, as I have a .6% chance to get a forma in T1 and a 90% chance to get a ton of BPs I already have,

And a 14.5% chance to get a forma at the end of a T3

 

So why spend 75 plat for this? Making forma cheaper would even make void keys even less worth it, and they are already awful

 

And to earning a T3 key, datamining as shown that it has a 0 chance for low level def, and a 0.15% chance for high level def (like Xini)  not sure on log on or alert chances but, guessing small

[Neuhnee]

Ok, it's pretty clear that we're not going to agree on the exact numbers, but the fact remains that Forma allows you to go beyond the previous 60 mod point limit. By however much that's an incredibly valuable asset to me and I'm, frankly, surprised it's as cheap as it is

[kaizoku222]

Ok, it's pretty clear that we're not going to agree on the exact numbers, but the fact remains that Forma allows you to go beyond the previous 60 mod point limit. By however much that's an incredibly valuable asset to me and I'm, frankly, surprised it's as cheap as it is

 

The only reason we're not agreeing is because you're disagreeing with high school level math, not because your argument has credibility. In no world is a forma as valuable at a catalyst/reactor, the only time they become useful is if you presume a potato is already applied and you're willing to spend more money anyway.

 

There is zero argument as to which is more valuable, only a denial of reality. 

[BadAimbot]

Ok, it's pretty clear that we're not going to agree on the exact numbers, but the fact remains that Forma allows you to go beyond the previous 60 mod point limit. By however much that's an incredibly valuable asset to me and I'm, frankly, surprised it's as cheap as it is

 

 

Yes, it is a useful asset. But, you need many more Forma than Potatoes to reach that point, not to mention that Forma has other uses as well. That's why they need to be made more accessible.

[unmog]

Forma should only cost 5 or 10 plat most. Especially since its gain is not without a cost, de-leveling whatever its used to upgrade from 30 to 0 without even giving more mastery rank.

[Timmuk]

Forma should only cost 5 or 10 plat most. Especially since its gain is not without a cost, de-leveling whatever its used to upgrade from 30 to 0 without even giving more mastery rank.

Issue with that is then void keys are even more useless than they are now, you already get ripped off buying key packs and T1s dont drop formas more than .7% of the time

[unmog]

Issue with that is then void keys are even more useless than they are now, you already get ripped off buying key packs and T1s dont drop formas more than .7% of the time

You can get more stuff than just forma from the voids, and you can get forma from alerts and login rewards. That doesnt devaule the void either. Plus I think void keys are too expensive as well, I'd suggest lowering a 5 pack to 50 plat actually. Lots of things in this game though are priced too highly IMO

Edited June 5, 2013 by unmog

[Enot83]

There has been discussion as well in another thread about the walling of content by grinding/paying speaking in regards to the void.  This is a cascade effect to some extent when also reviewing the keys and their worth as well.

 

While I agree the key pricing for what most value from the key packs is higher than it should be, lets focus on the forma in this discussion, and leave the major discussion of keys for another thread acknowledging that forma price changes would have an effect on them.