Slide Cooldown! Again.

[Smoke39]

Yes, another thread on the new slide cooldown.  There's been a lot of arguing about unrelated or merely tangential stuff, and not a lot of talk about the actual mechanics of how this thing works.  So I'm gonna have a nice long ramble about some stuff that's been buggin' me.

 

tl;dr:

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSHING.  PLS STOP.

THE STAMINA SYSTEM SHOULD BE USED INSTEAD OF A COOLDOWN.

OTHER THINGS.  READING IS GOOD FOR YOUR BRAIN.

 

COMMON POINTS

First some common points I've seen come up.  No, this isn't exhaustive.  I promise you I'm not trying to cherry pick; these are just some things that have been bugging me in particular.

"Suck it, rushers!"

 

This is the big one.  This is a really toxic topic for some reason.  Neither playstyle is right or wrong, they're merely incompatible with each other.  Instead of antagonizing each other for how we prefer to play, we should be discussing ways to improve matchmaking or to add incentives to "nudge" people in the direction of sticking together.  Please, you can think everything else I've written here is the stupidest S#&$ you've ever read, but PLEASE do not make this into another "us versus them" flame fest.  Please.

 

But anyway, BEYOND all that the slide cooldown has nothing to do with rushing in the first place.  I don't generally rush, but I still dislike this change (for reasons I'll get to later).  The problem of rushing comes out of playstyle, not movement mechanics.

 

If person A spends their time shooting enemies and opening lockers while person B mostly evades enemies and ignores lockers, person B will rush past person A IRRESPECTIVE of sliding, wall running, helicoptering, or any other movement technique, simply because person B is spending more time moving forward than person A.

 

I know it's frustrating to have people rushing ahead and abandoning you, and it's a genuine problem that still needs addressing, but you are not spiting rushers by supporting this change.  Rushers will still rush, they'll just be a WEE bit slower now.

 

Here's a good thread about this exact thing that popped up while I was rambling:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/61210-yo-de-carrot-stick-improve-warframe-stop-nerfing-stuff/

 

 

"Just use sprint mods!"

 

I already have a maxed sprint mod.  I'm still slowed down by being unable to slide as often.  The sprint mod stacks with sliding; the mod doesn't replace sliding, nor did the old slide mechanics replace the mod.

 

 

"I'm a frost/rhino and need it to keep up with my team mates!"

or

"Slow frames are supposed to be slow!"

 

I don't have experience with many frames, so I can't realy speak much to this.  However, it's a tangential issue.  Even if we were to assume that unlimited sliding granted slower frames too much meneuverability (and I'm not saying it necessarily did), there are other problems with the cooldown, as well as other ways to reinforce the "intended" speed differentiation between warframes.  It's a distraction from more fundamental issues with the cooldown.

 

PROBLEMS WITH THE COOLDOWN

This is some stuff I think's fundamentally wrong with this change that I feel like hasn't really been being raised much.

Legitimate Maneuvers

 

The current change messes up stuff that I don't think anyone would argue is particularly "wonky."  Stuff like doing a jump kick over a gap after sliding toward it, or sliding between enemies, then changing direction and sliding behind cover.  Seriously, if we're not supposed to use sliding as a quick, short-term speed boost, why does it boost our speed in the first place?

 

Inconsistency

 

Sliding is inconsistent now.  When I slide sometimes it'll give me a speed boost, and sometimes it'll slow me down based on some invisible black box condition.  "So add a cooldown indicator!" you might say.  Well I don't really like that idea because...

 

Redundancy

 

We ALREADY have a mechanic for rationing movement.  It's called stamina.  Why wasn't that used?  Piling on ANOTHER mechanic on top of the existing system is sloppy and unnecessarily complicated.  If they really had a problem with how sliding was being used, they should have tried to solve it with the existing movement currency instead of tacking on this awkward cooldown system.

 

ALTERNATIVES

Kinda hard to propose solutions considering DE just sprung this change on us outa the blue with no explanation of what it was supposed to SOLVE.  I don't think sliding was a problem in the first place, but here're a couple ideas for alternatives, based on some speculative possible objectives for the change:

Infinite Stamina

 

If the problem is that you can slide to regain stamina, and effectively sprint indefinitely, here are a few different ways to "fix" it.

 

The most obvious would be to make engaging a slide or kick cost a nice chunk of stamina, like slide melee attacks and jumping while sliding.  Maybe even increase one or both of those costs as well.

 

If that's not enough, reduce or remove stamina regen while sliding/kicking (I don't think it should apply while merely airborn, because I think you deserve to be able to chain wall running/jumping if you have the skill to actually pull it off).

 

"But these can still be mitigated with stamina mods!" you may cry.  As they damn well SHOULD!  The whole POINT of stamina mods is they let you do more fancy moves.  That's what you're paying mod points for.  These changes would actually make these mods more valuable if this is your play style, and I think that's a good thing for encouraging more loadout variety above shields/health and power mods.

 

Stupid Chaining

 

One of the criteria DE has given for whether to remove stuff like this is whether it just plain looks dumb, like the old "wavedashing."  Maybe they don't like people jump->kick->slide->jump chaining, or don't like people randomly sliding continually while running.  I disgree that these are a problem, but if they MUST be changed, I think there are better ways to do it.

 

First, the stamina stuff I mentioned above would do it.  But if that stuff is undesirable, or if another "failsafe" is needed in case of high level stamina mods, one of these could be implemented instead or in addition:

 

Every time you slide, the stamina cost of sliding increases by some increment.  Every time the cost of sliding increases, the increment amount doubles.  Time spent not sliding would cause the cost penalty and increment amount to decay.

 

A variation on this idea that's closer to the current solution (and thus less transparent and imo not as favorable) would be to decrease the speed boost in a manner similar to the way the above option increases stamina cost.

 

Both of these have the same issue of adding another awkward system on top of the stamina system, but they'd be a more gradual and unintrusive decay in slide capability.  Instead of an arbitrary cutoff or cooldown, you could do a few slides without much penalty, but with harsher penalties the closer you get to "spamming" or "chaining" or whatever instead of legitimately using it frequently.

 

Those are some very numerous words, and I feel shame.  I added some spoiler tags to make it look less embarrassingly long.  Did it work? :b

[Kelstrom]

+1 You put a LOT of thought into this and brought up some fantastic alternatives, I hope the devs read this.

[snurton]

+1 here as well, excellently put. Props as well for putting in those alternatives when you clearly don't agree with DE's apparently choice that chain sliding is an issue.

[Densoro1]

Nother plus. The first passive-aggressive 'suck it, explorers' thread was funny, but now they're just as bad as the originals. Always nice to see somebody focus on the bloody discussion for a change.

[PositronicSpleen]

This is a good summary of the situation, it sums up my feelings on the matter.

 

I might also add that we don't actually know that the change targeted the rusher playstyle, they may have just thought the rapid sliding looked bad.

[scavenge]

This is a good summary of the situation, it sums up my feelings on the matter.

I might also add that we don't actually know that the change targeted the rusher playstyle, they may have just thought the rapid sliding looked bad.

I was thinking this earlier too but then really they should probably focus on the ever repetitive leveldesign instead of our movements being effective, yet slightly silly looking.

Me sliding through a level on my behind isn't gonna bore you to death, is it?

Edited June 9, 2013 by scavenge

[Majicebe]

My main gripe is that it makes the game feel more... sluggish, is how I would probably state it.  The whole crazy movement everywhere thing is what made the game so enticing before.  Being able to slide, jump up and repeat on occasion just made me feel that much more like I had control over what my space ninja avatar was doing.  Now, it's just so inconsistent, it ends up being more frustrating to use the abilities, because you just don't know what the hell is going to happen -- you might move like you did before, but then again it seems you have the same chance to just hop up in the air and makes expected movements wonky and sporadic.

 

I guess I wouldn't mind if sliding didn't increase speeds, but then make all the Warframes a little faster to make up for it.

 

Basically, gameplay isn't as much fun since the nerf.  Please correct, DE, or come up with a better solution that doesn't feel uncomfortable.

[Stiffmaestro]

+1 Good summary of the problem and good solutions.

[Onite]

Hey, thanks for referencing my thread. And i'm glad i'm not alone on this. Keep fighting the good fight. +1.

[Night_Watch]

another +1. A Very Good Summary.

 

Dev's Please Listen.

 

This Nurf could be a game breaker (at least for me)

[Fleiryn]

Why ever changing anything about movement? That was okay better fix that damn TONS OF DIFFERENT BUGS ( and let all player stuff that damaging enemies count as a PLAYER kills, not just like mob died itself without your help).....