Rewards For Kills Or Rewards For Speed. Spoiler Tags Galore, With Tldr

[Aizeol]

Edit:

I made this system originally to accomidate alternate playstyles, and while I think that can still be achieved, the goal now is to help make grinding a little less random if it takes a little longer.

Most grind, in most games that require it has an element of randomness in it, but there is always a way that if you play longer you will get more rewards. Right now, Warframe doesn't have a system like that. You can run a boss 3 times and get all 3 blueprints, or you can run a boss 20 times a day for a month and get nothing.

I understand that is there to make buying the weapons and warframes more appealing, but I disagree with it being the only way. Giving the players a way to reliably grind to a goal, even if it takes longer than the random drops might, will keep the grind from going sour longer than just the randomness will.

Sure, it may take a lot longer with the system I've put forth to get the materials needed, but with the system in this post, it would happen at roughly the same rate for everyone.

Old Reasoning for change.

Basically, right now rushing is the only efficient way to complete missions. Completing a mission quickly and collecting what you can along the way will let you start another mission sooner and do the process over again.

What I propose is to have different, necessary rewards attached to different playstyles and have those rewards be mutually exclusive.

TL:DR first = Extra resources should be attached to a looting mechanic on enemies and Bonus credits and research should be attached to completing missions quickly.

Edit: A lot of the issue right now with this system is that it needs better communication during public games. If everyone playing publicly were given better ways to communicate, that might relieve a lot of struggle now.

More explanation:

Resources from killing:

The mechanic of getting extra resources from kills would need balancing, but it would allow players that kill everything to get a bonus at the end of the mission. The catch is that it takes time to go over to a body and collect the resources, and the amounts are extremely high. The resources collected will also be dictated by the enemy killed.

One way this could be implemented visually is to have it take as long as a revival for a teammate. Also, to give a team a reason to stick together, the players must be either in the same room or an adjacent room to get the materials. It should not be determined by a kill count at the end of the mission.

Each faction will only give certain resources, regardless of the planet they are killed on. Grineer will always drop the same resources whether they are on mercury or Earth or wherever.

The actual numbers may vary, but here is a rough estimate:

Commons enemies:

-Common resources: 5-10 per kill

-Uncommon resources: 1-4 per kill

-Rare resources: 1 per every 20-40 kills. This keeps them rare.

Uncommon/Special enemies:

-Common resources: 10-15 per kill

-Uncommon: 5-8 per kill

-Rare: 1 per every 15-30. Again, these need to stay rare and significant.

Elite, non-boss enemies:

-Common resources: 25 per kill

-Uncommon resources: 10-15 per kill

-Rare resources: 1 per every 10-15 kills. Not set in stone.

The resources could be limited again by not allowing more than one resource to drop from one enemy. To counter this, the amounts should be higher than suggested, but not higher than the actual drops from enemies.

Proposed resource based on faction:

Grineer: Ferrite, alloy plate, morphics/gallium (based on planet)

Corpus: Polymer bundle, rubedo?, circuits, and control module

Infested: Nano spores, Plastids, and neurodes.

The point is to have some resources still require drops since they probably won't be on an enemy's person. There could even be resources that drop from multiple factions, or multiple resources per tier of drop.

Now on to the second point. Completing a mission quickly.

Proposed rewards for completing a mission quickly, along with the mechanic to allow this to work.

Right now, there is no actual reward for completing the objective quickly. What if the Lotus were to give a credit incentive to the squad if they completed the mission quickly? This could also be reworked into a stealth incentive. If the mission allows the player to complete it quickly and with the least amount of casualties, the player can be given a nice reward of credits.

This would need the credits already given at the end of the mission to be tweaked a bit to reflect the specific mission and level, but the base line should be small enough that "rushing" is a much better option.

Let's say that a mission will give each player 1,500 - 2,000 credits, but if they complete it within a time limit given at the beginning of the mission they will get a bonus based on the level of the mission.

It could be as simple as the level of the mission times 100 to get something like:

Level 1 = 100 credits

Level 35 = 3,500 credits

This doesn't really seem like enough of an incentive though.

How about:

Level 1 = 2,000 credit reward

Level 30 = 15,000 credit reward

Personally, that is a much better reason to rush since the mission would only give 2,000 otherwise. Plus this could counter farming since it takes time to farm the extra materials. You can still get the drops, but farming will take more time than you really have.

Additionally, the credits will be needed to actually craft all the weapons and frames. The materials will be one piece, the credits are the other.

Second incentive to move quickly since credits aren't enough to counter materials.

Credits are nice, but materials are much more valuable. That is a fact, and honestly the reason most people rush after they have all the missions unlocked. There is one thing that could balance the system out though.

Have research tied to completing more missions.

This would have to either be based on how many missions you complete total, or in a time period. Honestly, I'd have a research item given for each planet you complete as a base and then after all the planets are complete have a counter that gives a research for every X missions completed in a specific time.

A generous example:

For every 10 missions completed within 24 hrs, 1 research sample is rewarded.

A strict example:

For every 10 missions completed within 1 hr, 1 research sample is rewarded.

It could even be as strict as 30 min or as generous as 1 week. Either way, there is some wiggle room for the devs to balance.

Bottom line: Completing missions quickly and being thorough need to give rewards based on the style chosen, but the playstyles shouldn't be punished.

Just give a different reward to each style.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Aizeol

[MetalGerbil]

in a game that bases its mechanics around 4 people being there. there should be 4 people there.

the problem isnt that it happens. but that people outright refuse to slowdown. regardless of the fact that it should be a team effort. their own selfishness is leading to this. they are rushing themselves over a cliff. how would it not be the case in a co-op game?

game already rewards killing everything. you have a chance at mods and resources. doubling that wont help if people still dont care about them. which can easily be the case as they start to get more of those than can be used quickly.

and if you go to the other extreme and reward based on number of kills (even if its team wide) you will have people sitting in the same mission forever just to get more kills.

in every scenario where ive seen this. its the .001% drop rates that get people in this mood. not the stuff that is easy to get but the stuff that is impossible to get. if you can do 10 quick runs in the time it takes to do 1. doing the quick ones makes sense.

[theammostore]

Yes please. Tweak the number a bit, but do something like this. Implement this with something similar to clan research weapons, but for non-research weapons or even that trading thing, and people will gladly clan up together, one person rushing through levels, or even groups of people rushing through levels to get the credits needed to make the things, while the other half or so focus on slaughtering the rest of the people getting the resources.

 

It'd be team oriented that way, since you can have roles for individuals within the clan other than Warlord, Architect, Treasurer, etc. And if you go it solo, then you just have to learn more and become better skilled at the game.

[TisEric]

I would argue as much as a cool thing this would be for each individual playstyle, overall it will create more strife 

between the ... hell i dont even want to say it since there are more than the 2 playstyles  but for the sake of argument ill call them

rushers and hoarders.

 

in private or clans this would be fantastic but pug games will be chaotic as more people will either do A or B  and not C which would be a balance of the 2. ideally we should find a away to incentivize going slower for people who rush and incentivize rushing for people who hoard. 

 

find middle ground, maybe  a team effort event that can reward with resources/credits.

have an arena like room lock everything down and have waves of enemies spawn if the group kills them fast enough they gain a reward.

maybe have 1 guy hack a panel or 2 and the others protect him.

 

this just doesn't solve the age old question of how to make people work together in pug games.

more team actions and communication should be first on the list.

Edited June 9, 2013 by TisEric

[Aizeol]

Very good points

What I've posted is the basic idea. I've fleshed out what I want it to do and what rewards will be given, but not so much the numbers.

What this is trying to achieve is a reward for the two opposing playstyles. Killing everything and Completing the mission quickly.

There needs to be a cooldown on the rewards given, or a bonus that depends on doing different missions. But the secondary effect of this is to have a reliable way to get rewards necessary for items.

Keeping the looting rewards distributed to players in the same room will hopefully encourage people to stay together. If you are off ahead, then you aren't getting the material bonuses. As for the time restriction, it either needs to be balanced in a way that you can have a mountain of resources, or a mountain of credits and research samples, but not both.

Again, it needs work. But getting this out there and getting feedback is more important.

[Aizeol]

Another good point about public games.

Honestly, if there was a better Voice system in the game it could fix a lot of these issues.

There is a voice already in the game, but it doesn't seem to work all the time.

[Aizeol]

le bump for more community feedback

[Mietz]

There is only one "incentive" to make people slow down.

 

Set difficulty to lvlDIE

[Aizeol]

There is only one "incentive" to make people slow down.

 

Set difficulty to lvlDIE

That's not an incentive. That's just a higher difficulty punishing stupid players for either picking it, or not acting like they picked it.

[Mietz]

That's not an incentive. That's just a higher difficulty punishing stupid players for either picking it, or not acting like they picked it.

 

tomato/tomatoe

 

Nothing else will work, increase difficulty or GTFO.

 

If you give people more/better rewards you are just devaluing everyones work.

If you try to force slowing down with lockdowns and doors it will only lead to the same frustration as with elevators.

Rewards for kills will incentivize kill-stealing and rushing ahead since people will want solo-rewards.

Rewards for speed will do the same.

 

We have discussed this since day one on this forum and the only viable solution is to increase the difficulty proportionately to the people playing.

[Aizeol]

Not trying to punish anyone. And this thread is only dealing with a way to eleviate some of the grind. Difficulty isn't the main point here.

But to address your point of "increase difficulty or [old 4chan acronym]": Difficulty shouldn't be solely based on level or how high the enemy stats are. Those are both lazy and boring ways to increase how much time it takes to take bullets from your weapon and make them go to the enemy.

What the game needs to improve difficulty is enemy variety and enemies that require more strategy than higher DPS to deal with. An enemy that can only be killed with melee, or much be shot at a specific point, or something similar would work as long as they aren't super common.

Again, that isn't the point of this thread though. Please go post another thread about "MaKe WaRfRaMe HaRdEr!! My PeNiS iS tWo SmAlL!"

To address these specifically:

If you give people more/better rewards you are just devaluing everyones work.

If you try to force slowing down with lockdowns and doors it will only lead to the same frustration as with elevators.

Rewards for kills will incentivize kill-stealing and rushing ahead since people will want solo-rewards.

Rewards for speed will do the same.

It is a cooperative game, everyone is helping everyone.

No one is being forced to slow down, stop saying that. I'm trying to reward both sides.

Kill-stealing isn't a thing since it doesn't matter who kills what or loots what since you only have to be in the same room to get the reward.

If you and everyone can get to the end before the timer, you all get the reward for completing the mission. How is this a problem? Also, any answer that isn't thoughout will just be a troll post, try harder.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Aizeol

[Mietz]

Not trying to punish anyone. And this thread is only dealing with a way to eleviate some of the grind. Difficulty isn't the main point here.

But to address your point of "increase difficulty or [old 4chan acronym]": Difficulty shouldn't be solely based on level or how high the enemy stats are. Those are both lazy and boring ways to increase how much time it takes to take bullets from your weapon and make them go to the enemy.

What the game needs to improve difficulty is enemy variety and enemies that require more strategy than higher DPS to deal with. An enemy that can only be killed with melee, or much be shot at a specific point, or something similar would work as long as they aren't super common.

Again, that isn't the point of this thread though. Please go post another thread about "MaKe WaRfRaMe HaRdEr!! My PeNiS iS tWo SmAlL!"

To address these specifically:

It is a cooperative game, everyone is helping everyone.

No one is being forced to slow down, stop saying that. I'm trying to reward both sides.

Kill-stealing isn't a thing since it doesn't matter who kills what or loots what since you only have to be in the same room to get the reward.

If you and everyone can get to the end before the timer, you all get the reward for completing the mission. How is this a problem? Also, any answer that isn't thoughout will just be a troll post, try harder.

 

You have some problem with reading comprehension, nevermind, I'll make it easier to understand and add some implied context.

 

By rewarding "both sides" what are you actually doing?

Lets see.

 

You incentivize fast play (rush) by your credits + research sample system.

You incentivize slow play (looters) by looting killed enemies for additional resources. (via a slow mechanic that needs adjacency)

 

What happens when these two "sides" end up in one mission?

 

Unilateral loss for everyone involved.

 

If 1 rush player = he loses his reward for rushing. He is either forced to play slow or wait at extraction for the rest of the team never finishing the run in time for the bonus. The other three players finish their looting and happily saunter to the extraction with additional loot.

 

If 2 rush players = they win their rush challenge, get their rewards. The other two slow players don't make it in time to extraction, the mission ends and they are no better off than before (had no time to properly loot anything). That, or they are forced to play fast.

 

If 3 rush players = they win the rush challenge and the poor one guy that wants to loot for extra rewards gets nothing, same as above. That or he is forced to play fast.

 

4 rush players is self-explanatory.

 

Now how does this make sense with your entry statement?

 

"Basically, right now rushing is the only efficient way to complete missions. Completing a mission quickly and collecting what you can along the way will let you start another mission sooner and do the process over again."

 

With your proposed change rushing is STILL the most efficient way to complete missions, you changed nothing in that regard. The rewards being mutually exclusive does in fact not change anything UNLESS you mean that this system is to -replace- the current loot system entirely (not add on to it). I understand your line of thinking in this, you are trying to tie playstyle to reward here, but it simply doesn't work because its the wrong solution to the wrong problem.

 

You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist, namely the rewards/incentives for playstyles.

The conflict isn't in the rewards, its in the fact that rushing and looting as playstyles simply are incompatible.

 

All you are doing with this system is widening the gap by denying the bonus to one side, effectively punishing them in those circumstances.

 

My suggestion of increased difficulty would necessitate a homogenization between rushing and looting, it would necessitate teamwork to accomplish objectives. That objective still can be rushing through the map as fast as possible or killing every living thing on it. THEN you can suggest and implement your changes and reward gameplay styles, but only after everyone on the team adheres to that style.

Not to mention i never said that enemies should have more health or anything to that effect, or maybe you don't know what lvlDIE means, in that case go play some God Hand.

[Aizeol]

Fair points. All addressing the fact that just because you give someone a carrot does not mean that they want a carrot.

Again, the problems you address while valid are not a part of this thread. The issue with public games is a lack of communication between players.

Right now, if a player rushes it harms the rest of the team that don't want to or can't rush. The exact same thing will happen if one person wants to loot everything, but not as much since it only takes half of the squad at the extraction to get out.

What I'm proposing doesn't solve this, but I believe it is a step in the right direction. The goal is to have two different rewards only be given with styles that are not compatible. This will give players a choice. There are more styles that should be catered to though.

By having special lockers (chests) in areas that require advanced, or even just normal parkour it will scratch the explore's itch, until they run out of content. That is an example of a style I didn't address that should be thought of.

Again, the problem with public games will always be communication. (Got off topic, sorry)

That is not what I'm trying to address, I'm trying to give a tool to help with that while help deal with grind.

[Tayot84]

the problem isn't communication people can communicate: waypoints point out loot and directions, chat can make complex thoughts (despite the fact it may be easily missed or you can get left behind the action), and (although I think it's weird) you can hook up a mic to talk to others.

 

The problem is that loot is so random and frustrating.  TisEric said that there are 2 styles of players: rushers and hoarders.  I agree, but I'm stuck in a region of both as are more like me.  I need 25 morphics and 3000 rubedo, both of which are rare although thankfully both attainable in Europa.  I know that there are multiple strategies to get these,

-Playing defense for a long time has a standard reward of loot if I play long enough

-Bosses have a better drop rate of rarities, so I farm them

-The standard missions are easy and in a long scheme of playing may give better chances

 

All 3 have their ups and downs but don't guarantee morphics.  And despite alternating the 3, neither beats the other and it gets boring to do the same mission 90 thousand times so I will continue to hoard when I can and rush when I need to.  I will not spend time for other players benefit just so they can get a team spirit feeling.  Want to know why?  Because they are doing the exact same thing as me.  

 

I will do everything I can to help other players, defend objective carriers, heal, team up on big enemies, and combo abilities.  I don't exactly get peoples problem with rushing, because when I set up a void mission with clan buddies we rush through the thing doing our respective parts along with making sure everybody wins because the prize is the end level loot, and here's the kicker, I think of those as the most teamwork I have.

 

To solve the loot problem all that is needed is a an extremely hard mission that guarantees a random rare resource (like attacking a mining fortress or killing an enemy powered by a resource) , people will have no choice but to work together instead of rushing. Right now the only incentive I have to work with others is when I do need manpower, or because solo games have worse loot drops than online parties.  I don't agree with speed mission rewards because they will only breed more selfishness, everybody's chances will be ruined if one guy gets hung back so they'll just leave him.

[Mietz]

The goal is to have two different rewards only be given with styles that are not compatible. This will give players a choice. 

 

No, in fact that will not give them any choice as rewards are tied to styles so if they want a specific type of reward they will be forced to play in a certain way.

Its a non-choice.

 

 

Again, the problem with public games will always be communication. (Got off topic, sorry)

 

 

No, the problem is not communication, people have all the tools to communicate at their disposal and they are able to form complex thoughts for said communication (text and voice chat, lobby, friends list, clan, dojo)

 

What is the problem is player desire and what they want.

Make players want the same thing and voilà.

 

All your system does is create an artificial gap and splits the gameplay reducing gameplay choices and variety by making one more desirable over the other.

[Aizeol]

No, in fact that will not give them any choice as rewards are tied to styles so if they want a specific type of reward they will be forced to play in a certain way.

Its a non-choice.

True. What I'm proposing will force, for lack of a better term, players to choose what extra reward they want from the mission. This would not eliminate the current mechanics of resource drops or credit rewards for missions. There would be no actual need to do either. Instead the players do have a choice to go for either extra reward. The resource gathering would require a time sink for it to actually yield results that are worth the effort. The credit reward is directly opposed to this since you must complete the mission within a strict time limit.

What I'm more looking to solve isn't the "rushers are bad" or "turtles are dumb" arguement now that I've looked at my proposed mechanic; what I'm looking to alleviate is the bad, random, unreliable grind the system currently has. It isn't all bad all the time, but it isn't favorable for everyone and doesn't favor those who play longer. 

So no, there is a choice. If you want a reward, you choose the "style" that will give you that reward for that mission. There are probably ways to tweak this mechanic, I don't deny that, but there is a choice there. The rewards are extra, they wouldn't be game breaking, and they would require patience and effort just like every other grind in any other game.

 

No, the problem is not communication, people have all the tools to communicate at their disposal and they are able to form complex thoughts for said communication (text and voice chat, lobby, friends list, clan, dojo)

 

What is the problem is player desire and what they want.

Make players want the same thing and voilà.

 

All your system does is create an artificial gap and splits the gameplay reducing gameplay choices and variety by making one more desirable over the other.

True, desire plays a key role. Sadly, in about 80% of the games I've played I've been the only person communicating and maybe one other teammate joined it. Many don't know there is a voice system in the game, and those that do don't use it (myself included) because no one can hear their teammates over the bullets and explosions.

If everyone could communicate their desire for what they want at the beginning of the mission, there is a higher chance that the group will act as a team instead of four solo members. There will always be those that leech or disregard their teammates, but I don't believe they are the majority of the problem.

Every time I've said something like "I'm looking for X drop, please highlight" even pubs help out. Sadly, I'm usually the only person to use chat.

Voice would be preferable, but again no one can hear me over the bullets. It would require each player to manually change their sound levels to actually hear voice, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Aizeol]

@Mietz-

What I would really like to know: Why do you have a problem with this mechanic that looks to help with making grind more reliable, but take a little longer?

The random grind will still function as it already does, but this system can be there to make it less of a chore that may or may not pay out?

Was it because I brought "rushing" and "exploring" into this?

[Mietz]

@Mietz-

What I would really like to know: Why do you have a problem with this mechanic that looks to help with making grind more reliable, but take a little longer?

The random grind will still function as it already does, but this system can be there to make it less of a chore that may or may not pay out?

Was it because I brought "rushing" and "exploring" into this?

 

Because it will negatively impact player behavior beyond what we already have.

It will widen the gap between rushers and looters in a pub setting instead of uniting them. This system is an unnecessary addition that potentially can harm the cumulative experience of pub gameplay for everyone.

 

So no, there is a choice. If you want a reward, you choose the "style" that will give you that reward for that mission. There are probably ways to tweak this mechanic, I don't deny that, but there is a choice there. The rewards are extra, they wouldn't be game breaking, and they would require patience and effort just like every other grind in any other game.

 

If you need money, Is choosing between gold and S#&$ a choice? 

If you have one preferable outcome you actually have no choice, its a solvable puzzle.

 

A choice must be equivalent for it to be a choice, like choosing between the same amount of USD and Euros.

Once you have pathed an optimal outcome you have removed choice from the equation.

 

I am categorically against things like that in any form, I don't want your system just as I don't want a "best" weapon in Warframe.

[Aizeol]

Because it will negatively impact player behavior beyond what we already have.

It will widen the gap between rushers and looters in a pub setting instead of uniting them. This system is an unnecessary addition that potentially can harm the cumulative experience of pub gameplay for everyone.

Again, I'm not trying to change people's playstyle. The system I'm proposing would be another way to get the rewards people want. They don't need to do it, but it is a more reliable way to get materials that takes more time to get them.

I need another solution for completing a mission quickly, or exploring, or opening every loot container, or getting assits, etc. I'm only catering to two playstyles, and they are the only two I know off the top of my head that make sense thematically. Getting extra materials for completing a mission quickly doesn't make sense unless the specific mission would allow it, but that is something else I'm trying to avoid.

I don't want people to feel forced to change their playstyle, and I don't want people to constantly recycle the same 4 missions all the time. Both make the grind feel worse for the player. I'm looking for a way to solve that more than the two playstyles.

 

If you need money, Is choosing between gold and S#&$ a choice? 

If you have one preferable outcome you actually have no choice, its a solvable puzzle.

 

A choice must be equivalent for it to be a choice, like choosing between the same amount of USD and Euros.

Once you have pathed an optimal outcome you have removed choice from the equation.

 

I am categorically against things like that in any form, I don't want your system just as I don't want a "best" weapon in Warframe.

Again, it is more of choice. These are extra rewards. Rushing a boss will still be viable, but less reliable. Looting lockers will still yield credits, but not as much as completing a mission quickly. It is a choice. Right now there is less choice than if my system was implemented.

There needs to be more choices in my opinion that allow a player to really think about what s/he wants to do to get the rewards they want. Sometimes that means that a certain reward needs to be gotten a certain way. As long as it makes sense, I don't see the problem. Again, I need a solution for all the playstyles if this is going to be balanced, but I don't see why this system won't work alongside the current one once the numbers are ironed out.

[Mietz]

Again, I'm not trying to change people's playstyle. 

 

And yet you do.

If you F*** around with incentives and rewards you also F*** with peoples play style.

 

Stop pretending you can isolate reward structures from gameplay, you can't.

[Aizeol]

And yet you do.

If you F*** around with incentives and rewards you also F*** with peoples play style.

 

Stop pretending you can isolate reward structures from gameplay, you can't.

You read my whole post then? You understand that these won't be the only way to get the rewards?

Does the idea of putting more ways to get rewards into the game infuriate you? or is it the fact that the new ways will only be gotten a certain way because they thematically make sense in the game?

The current system wouldn't be erased, just bolstered.