Op Weapons? Why Shouldn´t Harder-To-Get Weapons Be Better Than Starter Ones?

[ImaginaryFacepalm]

So I´m seeing all the rants about nerfing or buffing and I asked myself: "Who cares so much about what gun is better at killing emotionless AIs than another gun?"

 

With the mastery system and the main game about PvE I don´t see why people can´t get rewarded for their progress by getting stronger stuff and, in consequence, fight stronger enemies.

 

I understand that it would be unfair to have a super stong gun in dojo PvP, but that´s not the main part of the game and I´m sure even that could get balanced out by simply giving them new damage values against players.

 

I´m looking forward to your opinions on this.

[Tabtree]

I'm confused, what are we discussing here?

[RoyalRegalia]

I agree. I think with the mastery ranks, there has to be an incentive to actually climb the ranks and the perfect incentive would be a reward. Either weapons, items and whatnot -- one that logically, 'should' be better than those that can be obtained in the lower mastery. Hek is a perfect example. 

 

And as far as PvP is concerned, i think the devs are looking to add a feature that can let us set rules. Maybe like a lower damage value against players, like you mentioned. Although i personally hope the game does not develop into PvP. There are far too many games that do this, and as mentioned on one of the livestreams, Warframe was intended to stand out, as a PVE. 

[Grimden.]

I hear complaints from players on vids saying "Wow Supra is OP" or "Acrid is super OP OMG" But they fail to realize how incredibly long it takes to make these weapons. They were MUCH harder to get before the recent hotfix, but are still difficult to get. I dont pay attention to those people mainly cuz they are the ones that dont want to put in the time to farm the materials for these weapons and want to have even playing field with others that actually took the time to farm.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I am one of the people who thinks all weapons should be sidegrades.  Why?

 

1. Forma and Potatoes: with the addition of forma, the devs have encouraged for the first time spending extended periods with one weapon.  Making weapons of higher ranks better makes polarizing a weapon a poor choice.  It's already delicate because of buffs and nerfs, but if weapons were upgrades, there'd always be a better weapon on the horizon.  Why spend your forma now?  Similar arguments can be applied to potatoes.

2. The cost of the clan weapons is irrelevant.  You can farm those materials.  Things like the Supra are supposed to be later in the game.  DE was having issues with people consuming content too quickly, so they made content that is consumed slower.  People keep trying to associate the time spent farming with how good a weapon should be but I don't believe that was DE's goal.  IMO they were trying to slow down the rate at which the masses burned through their content because it really was absurd.  The same argument is applied to the dojos.

3. If weapons are upgrades, that encourages a certain amount of power creep, which necessitates more content which those powerful weapons are used in, else there is no challenge.

4. If weapons are upgrades, then there will necessarily be less options at your mastery level than there are in total below it, meaning that the weapon you've been using and loving is no longer viable and you end up using a weapon you don't want to play the content mentioned in 3.

 

As such, weapons at higher mastery levels would not be objectively be better but rather would get more specialized and if you ask me, that's exactly how the dojo weapons were intended.  The Supra is stupid-powerful at short range, but lack in other regards.  The Ignis is the bane of light infested.  The Lanka is intended to take down Corpus.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[R43N3F]

@volt_cruelerz so why have more then 2 or 3 weapon for each category at all

 

give us like 4 warframes 13 are way too much 4 are enough and then we can play if we take your argumentation 

 

 

take the rocket luncher difficult to get (at least for now) and has the risk of suicide

 

with great risks comes great responsibility

[liavalenth]

This is a hard topic because there are good points on both sides. Personally, I think the best solution would be to make Mastery grant bonuses instead of accessing stronger guns. I don't know how to do this, maybe grant a 5% damage bonus per mastery level or similar.

[Qb3rt]

I'm with you OP ... I don't understand this phantom mandate for perfect weapon balance, especially in a game with no PvP.

 

I mean... imagine playing a WoW expansion only to find all the new dungeons give loot that are nothing but sidegrades. Imagine the rage. And that game HAS pvp.

 

Yet in this game everyone pretends like everything should be equal? Huh?

[Grimden.]

This is a hard topic because there are good points on both sides. Personally, I think the best solution would be to make Mastery grant bonuses instead of accessing stronger guns. I don't know how to do this, maybe grant a 5% damage bonus per mastery level or similar.

How are there good points for the side wanting balance? You want a good strong weapon? EARN it by grinding just like all the other players

 

You DO NOT have to get the clan weapons. They are exclusive weapons for players like myself who have nothing else to do but wait for new content to come out. This keeps other busy. Its optional and comes with great rewards

Edited June 10, 2013 by Vanadrek

[matrixEXO]

with great risks comes great responsibility

What? Who thought you those bad lines? It's "With great power comes great responsibility". Geez, get it right. Though, I agree that the reason why Ogris is so powerful is because of the splash damage being so powerful that it can kill yourself if you weren't careful. Torid needs a buff though.

[Trylobyte]

Volt brings up the same points I was going to.  Right now, for instance, my Braton is approaching rank 30, but being a good newbie and doing my research I know it's not an 'end game' gun so I'm not going to bother using a forma or catalyst on it.  Why would I?  I'm just going to replace it soon because there are objectively better weapons out there.  The Skana is another fine example.  I'm never going to use it once I get the Cronus, which I got the blueprint and materials for within two hours of starting the game and just haven't bothered assembling until now.  There's no reason to, the Cronus is better in every measurable way.

 

The way I would consider doing it is that instead of making 'strictly better' weapons at higher mastery ranks, instead have the weapons get more specialized.  Generic weapons are fine for starting out, but as you get more experienced you're going to want weapons that fit your role better.  Want to go raw firepower?  Want to focus on sniping?  Need weapons that give good crowd control?  Well, you're now experienced enough to know what you need and you can tailor your weapons accordingly.  Like fighting Grineer?  Rank up so you can get that rifle with inherent armor pierce.  Corpus frustrate you?  Here's a gun that has a bonus to shock damage.  Think Infested need to die in a fire?  Have a flamethrower!  If you don't have a 'best' option then players will tend to gravitate towards the item that fits their style the best.  As long as there are good options for every role you'll see a healthy variety.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Trylobyte

[OxexRaclir]

Right now, for instance, my Braton is approaching rank 30, but being a good newbie and doing my research I know it's not an 'end game' gun so I'm not going to bother using a forma or catalyst on it.  

I hope you're talking about the MK1 Braton because the regular Braton is a beast.

[matrixEXO]

Volt brings up the same points I was going to.  Right now, for instance, my Braton is approaching rank 30, but being a good newbie and doing my research I know it's not an 'end game' gun so I'm not going to bother using a forma or catalyst on it.  Why would I?  I'm just going to replace it soon because there are objectively better weapons out there.  The Skana is another fine example.  I'm never going to use it once I get the Cronus, which I got the blueprint and materials for within two hours of starting the game and just haven't bothered assembling until now.  There's no reason to, the Cronus is better in every measurable way.

 

The way I would consider doing it is that instead of making 'strictly better' weapons at higher mastery ranks, instead have the weapons get more specialized.  Generic weapons are fine for starting out, but as you get more experienced you're going to want weapons that fit your role better.  Want to go raw firepower?  Want to focus on sniping?  Need weapons that give good crowd control?  Well, you're now experienced enough to know what you need and you can tailor your weapons accordingly.  Like fighting Grineer?  Rank up so you can get that rifle with inherent armor pierce.  Corpus fristrate you?  Here's a gun that has a bonus to shock damage.  Think Infested need to die in a fire?  Have a flamethrower!  If you don't have a 'best' option then players will tend to gravitate towards the item that fits their style the best.  As long as there are good options for every role you'll see a healthy variety.

That's something I felt was strange about this game as well. Weapons are strictly just based on the damage potential it's capable of, not weapons that are designed to fit into a role that we want. It also becomes annoying when Forma is introduced because apart from frames, weapons are only going to be Forma-ed when it's the absolute beast at the moment. And when it gets replaced with an even better weapon, that weapon get's trashed or stored. Forma becomes more of a selective use where people only use it if they think they have something that will always be powerful.

[NessTV]

More sidegrades -> more weapons being used (if weapon X is sidegrade to Y, people use both X and Y, if X > Y, all people use X) -> more playstyles created -> more interesting game.

 

No point in straight upgrades.

[Qb3rt]

Volt brings up the same points I was going to.  Right now, for instance, my Braton is approaching rank 30, but being a good newbie and doing my research I know it's not an 'end game' gun so I'm not going to bother using a forma or catalyst on it.

 

Um, what? Braton is most definitely one of the top 5 endgame primaries. Arguably THE best rifle, sans Boltor vs. high-armor/level enemies.

 

Skana on the other hand...

[Kiteless]

The idea is to make each weapon viable for end-game play, and not just shoehorn players into a few specific options. Considering how hard it is to design unique and interesting weapons, you don't want to go and retroactively invalidate all of them.

 

The higher tier weapons shouldn't be specifically better, but open up new, unique options for unique playstyles, that may require a higher level of competency to get the most out of.

Otherwise, you end up with the situation we have with melee weaponry, where Gram is by far the best weapon (well, now Orthos, but Gram held that spot for a long time) and everything else is pointless.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Kiteless

[Trylobyte]

Um, what? Braton is most definitely one of the top 5 endgame primaries. Arguably THE best rifle, sans Boltor vs. high-armor/level enemies.

 

Skana on the other hand...

Seems I've been misinformed then, since I've always heard it compared negatively to the Gorgon.  Looks like I can rest easier on that point then - I like the Braton because I've yet to find a situation it's not at least tolerable in.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Volt brings up the same points I was going to.  Right now, for instance, my Braton is approaching rank 30, but being a good newbie and doing my research I know it's not an 'end game' gun so I'm not going to bother using a forma or catalyst on it.  Why would I?  I'm just going to replace it soon because there are objectively better weapons out there.  The Skana is another fine example.  I'm never going to use it once I get the Cronus, which I got the blueprint and materials for within two hours of starting the game and just haven't bothered assembling until now.  There's no reason to, the Cronus is better in every measurable way.

 

The way I would consider doing it is that instead of making 'strictly better' weapons at higher mastery ranks, instead have the weapons get more specialized.  Generic weapons are fine for starting out, but as you get more experienced you're going to want weapons that fit your role better.  Want to go raw firepower?  Want to focus on sniping?  Need weapons that give good crowd control?  Well, you're now experienced enough to know what you need and you can tailor your weapons accordingly.  Like fighting Grineer?  Rank up so you can get that rifle with inherent armor pierce.  Corpus frustrate you?  Here's a gun that has a bonus to shock damage.  Think Infested need to die in a fire?  Have a flamethrower!  If you don't have a 'best' option then players will tend to gravitate towards the item that fits their style the best.  As long as there are good options for every role you'll see a healthy variety.

Yes.  Except for the part about the Braton.  It's perhaps the best rifle overall in the game at the moment.  Decently accurate, decently high DPS, decent ammo efficiency, etc.  Sure, there are things that are better at different things (Gorgon at DPS, Supra at short-range DPS, Latron at accuracy, Boltor vs high-level defense enemies, etc), but overall the Braton could be argued to be the best overall in the game.

[Qb3rt]

Seems I've been misinformed then, since I've always heard it compared negatively to the Gorgon.  Looks like I can rest easier on that point then - I like the Braton because I've yet to find a situation it's not at least tolerable in.

 

Braton vs. Gorgon? Completely different weapons. Incomparable. That's not even apples vs. oranges... that's apples vs. orangutans.

 

Even then, I'd personally choose the Braton over the Gorgon 10 times out of 10.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Qb3rt

[Kiteless]

I love both the Braton and the Gorgon, they both have good and bad points, really. Braton tends to be better with ammunition, is generally more accurate, and better suited for burst fire, what with no spool up time. Gorgon is for when you just absolutely, positively need to kill every last @&#(&*@#$# in the room and don't really give a S#&$ about silly things like "accuracy" or "ammo conservation."

[neKroMancer]

Sidegrade VS Upgrade topic?

 

Well, if you approach the game from TPS aspect then sidegrade is a better choice of the two, Consider that sidegrade, mixing mechanics and stat adjustment, can creates a lot of weapon variances without messing with game balance. This type of design also offer greater varieties in gameplay more than upgrade. Look at ME3MP for reference if you want to know how to make weapons as sidegrade while making them feel unique (granted, it was a long, torturing process).

 

On the other hand, approaching the game from RPG perspective and you will see upgrade as a more reasonable choice. You invest hours upon hours, Forma after Forma into the game to create dojo with lab and invest a lot more for weapon research - you should get something fabulous in return, not something bland.

 

Consider that Warframe has been trying to blend two elements together, it's logical that some mechanic like the current theme of laser/poison/fire should be limited to clan-based weapons but overall performance should be a little bit better than purchasable weapons in the market. They should use novel mechanics as a selling point, not a direct upgrade in stat. 

[ImaginaryFacepalm]

More sidegrades -> more weapons being used (if weapon X is sidegrade to Y, people use both X and Y, if X > Y, all people use X) -> more playstyles created -> more interesting game.

 

No point in straight upgrades.

The mastery system as it works requires you to use a certain amount of weapons  in order to climb ranks and get access to new weapons. Now that you have already seen the weapons, you might want something new and fancy, something you worked for by so to say. If you get the clan weapons you most likely already have seen most of the other guns and frames, so you are most likely not going to use most of them again.

 

It´s not like "here you got all the weapons from the beginning, choose some for your playstyle"

 

This is a hard topic because there are good points on both sides. Personally, I think the best solution would be to make Mastery grant bonuses instead of accessing stronger guns. I don't know how to do this, maybe grant a 5% damage bonus per mastery level or similar.

I like that idea, the mastery system in general should give more benefits than access to more weapons.

 

Also I might add, that if you spend so long playing the game to finally be able to use a gun, you maybe want to show this and be looked upon by other players and not get totally ignored because even a relatively new player can do all that

[WarG0d]

Seems I've been misinformed then, since I've always heard it compared negatively to the Gorgon.  Looks like I can rest easier on that point then - I like the Braton because I've yet to find a situation it's not at least tolerable in.

 

Ppl who tend to trash talk the Gorgon and Braton, not the mk1 mind you, can't do either of 2 things: 1. Aim 2. Ration their ammo or both

[Trylobyte]

On the other hand, approaching the game from RPG perspective and you will see upgrade as a more reasonable choice. You invest hours upon hours, Forma after Forma into the game to create dojo with lab and invest a lot more for weapon research - you should get something fabulous in return, not something bland.

 

Consider that Warframe has been trying to blend two elements together, it's logical that some mechanic like the current theme of laser/poison/fire should be limited to clan-based weapons but overall performance should be a little bit better than purchasable weapons in the market. They should use novel mechanics as a selling point, not a direct upgrade in stat. 

I compare this to supercapitals in EVE Online.  They take a very long time (Months of real-life time), enormous resources, and the combined work of hundreds of people to build.  And unlike weapons in Warframe, they can get blown up.  They were the ultimate trump card for a while, since having even one supercapital meant you were someone not to be taken lightly.  But the game matured.  Things got more stable.  And you started seeing alliances that could field five or six at a time.  Then ten.  Then thirty.  There are some out there now that can field 100+ supercapital ships at a time, and groups of 10 are considered normal.  The developers now have a big problem to try to fix, where now they have these things intended to be rare and expensive, but over time more were produced than destroyed so now the game is saturated with them and virtually every major group has tons of them.  In a game like Warframe, this means you'd either have to balance things for people who have the 'rare' clan dojo weapons (and risk making things too hard for people who don't) or balance them for 'regular' weapons (making things too easy for Dojo weapon users).  Either way, someone has a problem.

 

Moral of the story:  Things that are rare and expensive don't stay rare and expensive as the game matures unless they're being removed from the system as fast as they're being added.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Trylobyte

[ImaginaryFacepalm]

I´m just reminding you of the caption of the thead: Hard-to-get weapons, which is mastery 5 and above for me, not every mundane weapon