Aura System?

[Excitonex]

-snip-

 

I'm pretty sure you'll always be safe to re-polarize one ability slot, leaving yourself with 3. It's unlikely there will be a frame that you actually need all 4 abilities equipped.

 

I definitely agree with the defensive mods part though. You would never use redirection if you're using rage. Vitality is great on lots of frames because health is worth a lot more than shield due to armor.

 

All my frames use a variation of one build. This build increases their powers, gives them the largest redirection and/or vitality available, and whatever 1 or two skills I use on that frame. They're all very 'cookie-cutter' builds. While this can be fixed with more mod slots it would also be fixed by making the weaker mods more desirable.

[Ghobe]

This doesn't matter. Without polarization, using the skill slots for other mods is ineffective due to the equipment price jump for cross polarity.

It's 1. ONE mod capacity for mismatch. And let's put that in perspective. If you're using all 10 slots, your warframe has a potato in it. So 1 mod capacity really isn't going to hurt you, in fact 2 isn't going to hurt you either. Second point: Forma is in the game for a reason. Here's a screenshot from my latest mag load out. Notice anything? All 10 slots used, 2 mismatched, 0 forma, and I still have 2 capacity free. And we both know that load out makes me nigh invincible. Is that the standard build for Mag? I don't know, but I doubt it. Honestly, when it came to the final slots(steel fiber, flow, marathon, quick rest, pull, and rush), I was just kind of throwing stuff in because I could, not because I wanted it. That's not making a choice, I mean...I guess it is...but you hopefully know what I mean.

 

The idea that the game is easy so X mod slots should be enough is also unfounded because not everyone shares the same view on exactly HOW the game is easy.

That wasn't my point at all. I actually pulled this idea from one of the D3 developer blogs from way back when they were discussing design decisions and why they chose to allow you to have 6 skills instead of 7. The quote was something along the lines of 'with 7 skill choices, you could still pretty much choose whatever you wanted, with only 6, every choice was a hard one to make.' I like that thought process, it even showed up in the game while I was playing it, "man I wish I could have ____ too with this build." Now although most builds in that game had the same core 3-4 skills, the final 2-3 were different depending on the player. Just because 1-3 skills/mods/whatever are seen as mandatory, does not mean that choice does not exist. Hell I encourage you to look at every mod you have across all your frames and weapons, choose 5 to play with, only 5 between your frame and all 3 weapon slots, choosing a sentinel is classified as a mod slot for this little experiment. Could you make a set of choices for it? Do you think you could be satisfied with those choices? Now, tell me...do you really think 52 choices(frame 10, 3 weapons 8 each, sentinel 10, sentinel weapon 8) is really such a good thing in this game? Seems a little much to me.

Personally I'd choose: Hornet Strike, Heated Charge, Redirection, Crush, and either Sentinel with Guardian or Killing Blow depending on what content I was doing.

Is 5 total choices too limited? Maybe. For what's needed to function in this game? No, for achieving maximum result, yes, but is maximum result what we should be striving for? That's the real question I pose here. Perhaps it's because I find little-no joy in walking around one shotting everything while being nigh invincible, but I don't really like the freedom we have in this game to have everything we want and then some. The thought that people need even more freedom is absolutely dumbfounding to me.

 

Choice is the last thing we have right now because half of the options aren't even worth the effort,

This shouldn't be a point against this type of thinking. If the problem is that worthwhile choices don't exist, then we should be pushing to have more worthwhile choices, not shooting down the idea of forcing choice.

[ToeSama]

It's 1. ONE mod capacity for mismatch. And let's put that in perspective. If you're using all 10 slots, your warframe has a potato in it. So 1 mod capacity really isn't going to hurt you, in fact 2 isn't going to hurt you either. Second point: Forma is in the game for a reason. Here's a screenshot from my latest mag load out. Notice anything? All 10 slots used, 2 mismatched, 0 forma, and I still have 2 capacity free. And we both know that load out makes me nigh invincible. Is that the standard build for Mag? I don't know, but I doubt it. Honestly, when it came to the final slots(steel fiber, flow, marathon, quick rest, pull, and rush), I was just kind of throwing stuff in because I could, not because I wanted it. That's not making a choice, I mean...I guess it is...but you hopefully know what I mean.

Throwing things in "because I could" is not the type of standard that content balance and lack of space for additional options should be weighed against. Anyone can play against type for the sheer fun of it, but it's not really helping to test the real impact on what adding another mod slot or two for the future Artifact mods will have, if any, on how the game plays. I don't even see what you were trying to hammer at on this part, if anything.

Also, the cross polarity cost jumps even higher with mods that have been leveled up, so 1 point from a rank 0 mod may not be an issue, but it certainly hurts the potential those slots have without access to Forma in regard to equipping higher level mods in those slots. So still not an effective option even if it is an available one.

As for your build, save for Quick Rest and Vitality, that seems to be a fairly standard output for end game Mag focusing on using Crush. So yes, it does look an awful lot like a high tier Mag build.

That wasn't my point at all. I actually pulled this idea from one of the D3 developer blogs from way back when they were discussing design decisions and why they chose to allow you to have 6 skills instead of 7. The quote was something along the lines of 'with 7 skill choices, you could still pretty much choose whatever you wanted, with only 6, every choice was a hard one to make.' I like that thought process, it even showed up in the game while I was playing it, "man I wish I could have ____ too with this build." Now although most builds in that game had the same core 3-4 skills, the final 2-3 were different depending on the player. Just because 1-3 skills/mods/whatever are seen as mandatory, does not mean that choice does not exist. Hell I encourage you to look at every mod you have across all your frames and weapons, choose 5 to play with, only 5 between your frame and all 3 weapon slots, choosing a sentinel is classified as a mod slot for this little experiment. Could you make a set of choices for it? Do you think you could be satisfied with those choices? Now, tell me...do you really think 52 choices(frame 10, 3 weapons 8 each, sentinel 10, sentinel weapon 8) is really such a good thing in this game? Seems a little much to me.

Personally I'd choose: Hornet Strike, Heated Charge, Redirection, Crush, and either Sentinel with Guardian or Killing Blow depending on what content I was doing.

Is 5 total choices too limited? Maybe. For what's needed to function in this game? No, for achieving maximum result, yes, but is maximum result what we should be striving for? That's the real question I pose here. Perhaps it's because I find little-no joy in walking around one shotting everything while being nigh invincible, but I don't really like the freedom we have in this game to have everything we want and then some. The thought that people need even more freedom is absolutely dumbfounding to me.

As I main a Trinity and a Strun, I would choose Energy Vampire, Blessing, Point Blank, Hell's Chamber and Flechette. All but Energy Vampire maxed. Seems pretty strong, right? for the most part it is, but it would eat up a lot of ammo against higher ranked enemies, and even with the invincibility from Blessing I'd have to play it slow and smart to win depending on the mission.

If we're judging based off of early and mid game content, then I'd wreck face. But that's not a good way to judge balance off of. Even newbie players will have it tough with a potential of 12 mod slots when they have no mods worth equipping to their suits. That's part of where the grind comes in, and has no standing on how easy or difficult it would be for high ranked players against high ranked enemies with high ranked equipment.

So no, I do not agree that five choices alone would still make the game easy. The exact mechanics of how enemy levels work call for a higher damage output than what I'm doing, so even with my great survivability I'm pushing hard to take end game enemies down by myself without eating a ton of ammo boxes.

This I think is where our poor communication stems from. You're looking at the game as it is right now and thinking that with all the power at your disposal, you are an invincible god who will always come out on top. I look at the game as a game in beta that is beginning to get a handle on player capability, and has finally begun to look into balancing enemy AI against it to generate a legitimate challenge that doesn't revolve around numbers completely. I also look at the game as misguided in it's customization potential for wanting to make anything of worth a mod selection when there are ways to increase both player and enemy capabilities that are both fun and interesting that do not revolve around the mod system. While that is for the most part a completely different topic of conversation, I'm not looking at the current state of the game to judge balance off of when I call for certain additions to be made to players for further customization. It's not like enemies will always and forever be push overs who simply act as bullet sponges. And if it is, it was definitely not the fault of high tier fully geared out players being able to run rough shot over them, and definitely not any fault of even further options becoming available to players through 1-2 additional mod slots for their frames.

This shouldn't be a point against this type of thinking. If the problem is that worthwhile choices don't exist, then we should be pushing to have more worthwhile choices, not shooting down the idea of forcing choice.

I can name every mod I would ever consider wearing in every suit I'd play, and only be able to name one for each suit that I would even consider removing to add in an artifact mod when that change occurs in the future. Without an additional mod slot, I'm not given choice. I know what mods my suits needs exactly for the best they can be, and there isn't any leeway about it. I literally have one slot to choose from for extra stuff right now, and if I don't get at least one slot dedicated to mods come this change, I would have none.

Choice needs to exist for me to feel that I could have a worthwhile choice. I don't feel like I have either right now where my Warframe itself is concerned. It may stem from a min-maxing frame of mind, but it is no less a legitimate issue that the end game lacks something for frame mod selection. You may not agree, but I never said you needed to. Doing it your way, however, is impeding other players from actually feeling like they have a choice on mods, where as doing it our way does nothing to you. You could just as easily not use any extra mod slots they add in the future if that's your thing.

[SynisterDoom]

Throwing things in "because I could" is not the type of standard that content balance and lack of space for additional options should be weighed against. Anyone can play against type for the sheer fun of it, but it's not really helping to test the real impact on what adding another mod slot or two for the future Artifact mods will have, if any, on how the game plays. I don't even see what you were trying to hammer at on this part, if anything.

Also, the cross polarity cost jumps even higher with mods that have been leveled up, so 1 point from a rank 0 mod may not be an issue, but it certainly hurts the potential those slots have without access to Forma in regard to equipping higher level mods in those slots. So still not an effective option even if it is an available one.

As for your build, save for Quick Rest and Vitality, that seems to be a fairly standard output for end game Mag focusing on using Crush. So yes, it does look an awful lot like a high tier Mag build.

As I main a Trinity and a Strun, I would choose Energy Vampire, Blessing, Point Blank, Hell's Chamber and Flechette. All but Energy Vampire maxed. Seems pretty strong, right? for the most part it is, but it would eat up a lot of ammo against higher ranked enemies, and even with the invincibility from Blessing I'd have to play it slow and smart to win depending on the mission.

If we're judging based off of early and mid game content, then I'd wreck face. But that's not a good way to judge balance off of. Even newbie players will have it tough with a potential of 12 mod slots when they have no mods worth equipping to their suits. That's part of where the grind comes in, and has no standing on how easy or difficult it would be for high ranked players against high ranked enemies with high ranked equipment.

So no, I do not agree that five choices alone would still make the game easy. The exact mechanics of how enemy levels work call for a higher damage output than what I'm doing, so even with my great survivability I'm pushing hard to take end game enemies down by myself without eating a ton of ammo boxes.

This I think is where our poor communication stems from. You're looking at the game as it is right now and thinking that with all the power at your disposal, you are an invincible god who will always come out on top. I look at the game as a game in beta that is beginning to get a handle on player capability, and has finally begun to look into balancing enemy AI against it to generate a legitimate challenge that doesn't revolve around numbers completely. I also look at the game as misguided in it's customization potential for wanting to make anything of worth a mod selection when there are ways to increase both player and enemy capabilities that are both fun and interesting that do not revolve around the mod system. While that is for the most part a completely different topic of conversation, I'm not looking at the current state of the game to judge balance off of when I call for certain additions to be made to players for further customization. It's not like enemies will always and forever be push overs who simply act as bullet sponges. And if it is, it was definitely not the fault of high tier fully geared out players being able to run rough shot over them, and definitely not any fault of even further options becoming available to players through 1-2 additional mod slots for their frames.

I can name every mod I would ever consider wearing in every suit I'd play, and only be able to name one for each suit that I would even consider removing to add in an artifact mod when that change occurs in the future. Without an additional mod slot, I'm not given choice. I know what mods my suits needs exactly for the best they can be, and there isn't any leeway about it. I literally have one slot to choose from for extra stuff right now, and if I don't get at least one slot dedicated to mods come this change, I would have none.

Choice needs to exist for me to feel that I could have a worthwhile choice. I don't feel like I have either right now where my Warframe itself is concerned. It may stem from a min-maxing frame of mind, but it is no less a legitimate issue that the end game lacks something for frame mod selection. You may not agree, but I never said you needed to. Doing it your way, however, is impeding other players from actually feeling like they have a choice on mods, where as doing it our way does nothing to you. You could just as easily not use any extra mod slots they add in the future if that's your thing.

Maybe he just likes feelings empowered by pretty much going "better than you~ look how quick i can do this, na na na na na naaa" and how the hell did we end up with all this from an innocent little idea?! But whatever,,

[Ghobe]

Let's take a step back.

#1: This isn't about difficulty in any way, shape or form of the word. (Besides difficulty doesn't exist in this game, *poke people having trouble*)

#2: This is about adding choice into the game. I see this as a two-fold thing. 1) limit amount of mods able to be chosen, and 2) add more mods that allow serious amounts of choice. Not just serious play vs farming play.

 

As to your part about how you wouldn't take anything out for an artifact...I know most of the artifacts downright suck(Energy Siphon, Rejuvenation, and MAYBE Corrosive Projection will be the only choices unless the rest receive some type of major fundamental change, or the game mechanics change, like lower ammo counts to start with, ammo boxes becoming dramatically less effective, etc), but something to keep in mind that according to the livestream, is that not only are they supposed to become cards like mods, but they will be able to be better than what our current artifacts are after fully upgraded. Now does that matter with most artifacts? No. But let's say they change the game up dramatically. Starting ammo reduced by 75%, ammo pick ups restored 33% of a clip, and ammo boxes only restored 3 clips. Do the ammo artifacts become dramatically better in your eyes? Oh yea. Do they become mandatory? Probably, at least towards end-game unless you're a mage frame. However, with artifacts also being auras, assuming they work for everyone, perhaps this will encourage a group to pick artifacts beyond just energy and health regen. Now does the game allow you to see what everyone is using prior? Not unless it's a premade, but it's not like this isn't a very heavily discussed issue around here either.

 

 

 

As for your build, save for Quick Rest and Vitality, that seems to be a fairly standard output for end game Mag focusing on using Crush. So yes, it does look an awful lot like a high tier Mag build.

Amusing, without any research I came that close. Curious as to why they avoid Vitality though, especially if they're getting steel fiber.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Ghobe

[ToeSama]

Let's take a step back.

#1: This isn't about difficulty in any way, shape or form of the word. (Besides difficulty doesn't exist in this game, *poke people having trouble*)

#2: This is about adding choice into the game. I see this as a two-fold thing. 1) limit amount of mods able to be chosen, and 2) add more mods that allow serious amounts of choice. Not just serious play vs farming play.

1)I based my whole judgment that frames should have additional mod slots based on the notion that enemy difficulty and tactic capability would increase in future updates. For me, this is an issue of game difficulty, because it would be the best way to offer players more customization room without jacking their power through the roof. If the game was harder, more options would not only be desired, but justified.

Plus it's not like the game couldn't use an enemy AI boost...

2)Serious play IS farming play. That's literally all there is to do with the game currently once you're into end game territory, and the faster you can kill things and take their stuff, the more effective and less time consuming the grind is, which is the ultimate goal for a lot of end game builds. To change this would require the removal of the rng completely, and I get the feeling that would never happen, so the only next step is to make the grind fun and worthwhile, not even more of a chore by adding in more content that people would never consider using unless they had extra space with which to do so. Anything else falls back to the issue of low level characters with low level eq.

There's also the issue of how the meta game has evolved since the game first came out of alpha/closed beta. The focus on the way the mod system works and the improvement of frame capabilities with higher end mods might not be as mandatory as it seems, but it's hard to keep up with the end game without doing it. And the end game consists of little more than longer grinding sessions than lower levels.

I disagree completely with your notion that less is more for the above reason of #1. If the game was legitimately challenging on more than one front instead of brandishing a fake challenge made up of cheep enemy AI and enemy strength by numbers, more of the options might be worth more than being fed into Serration and Hornet Strike. It just doesn't make sense to me to block the players by denying them further content and space to use said content when we can improve the challenges to actually be challenging instead. I doubt we will ever agree on that front, but it is what it is...

As to your part about how you wouldn't take anything out for an artifact...I know most of the artifacts downright suck(Energy Siphon, Rejuvenation, and MAYBE Corrosive Projection will be the only choices unless the rest receive some type of major fundamental change, or the game mechanics change, like lower ammo counts to start with, ammo boxes becoming dramatically less effective, etc), but something to keep in mind that according to the livestream, is that not only are they supposed to become cards like mods, but they will be able to be better than what our current artifacts are after fully upgraded. Now does that matter with most artifacts? No. But let's say they change the game up dramatically. Starting ammo reduced by 75%, ammo pick ups restored 33% of a clip, and ammo boxes only restored 3 clips. Do the ammo artifacts become dramatically better in your eyes? Oh yea. Do they become mandatory? Probably, at least towards end-game unless you're a mage frame. However, with artifacts also being auras, assuming they work for everyone, perhaps this will encourage a group to pick artifacts beyond just energy and health regen. Now does the game allow you to see what everyone is using prior? Not unless it's a premade, but it's not like this isn't a very heavily discussed issue around here either

We actually use damage buffers and the new mods a lot in my clan. But health and energy isn't often in short supply for us, as at least one of us is always using a Trinity on Tower or leveling runs.

Until we know more about what the new artifact mods will function like, it's all speculation at best as to how they'll impact the system. Though I highly doubt they'll be any worse off than they are now in making the game easier. Half of the lack of difficulty in the game isn't even on the frames and their mods...

Amusing, without any research I came that close. Curious as to why they avoid Vitality though, especially if they're getting steel fiber.

The buffer mods for Frames run off of the baseline HP your frame starts with at level 0. Mag has a base health of 75 unranked, so with a maximum Vitality would only get 555 HP max at rank 30. It's better to save that sort of mod space for upgrading the shield and armor buffs to be even bigger, or for other mods to help with Crush usage, like Focus or Stretch.