Where's Warframe Going (I Finally Explain The "lack Of Depth" Comments)

[Lukap99]

You deserve 10000 platinum for this post. And the grand master founder package... for free.

[whitejackale]

Actually that is an interesting idea !!!

 

What if mixing elemental mods actually created a unique effect  based on combination!!

 

Example,  fire mod[a]{lvl} + ice mod{lvl} = N {effect]  OR  Ice mod[a]{lvl} + Lightning mod{lvl} = N {effect}

Ice mod+fire mod=water gun.

[Vitalidad]

A lot of good points. To be completely honest I believe the weapons need a work over, more "Ups and Downs" to the mods instead of it just being "I can either have an awesome clip size and rain death on enemies with bullets, or have massive damage to kill everything in one shot" which everyone us always going to choose the latter because reasons.

 

Each of the damage boosting mods should have an obvious draw back, like having a fire mod on a gun would make it next to useless against certain enemies, or perhaps even reduce clip size. Armor piercing would do the same, except do less damage to unarmored targets. I'd also like it so only two elemental mods could be equipped at a time, like either Armor Piercing and Fire, or Fire and ice, Electrical and Serration.

 

I'd also like to see the mod slot split up a bit between "Utility" mods and "Buff" mods. A utility mod would be the extended mag, more ammo pool, fire rate, ect. Boosts would be the damage mods and multi-shot type mods.

 

Eagle Eye is a neat little mod. But who is going to use that over say...a maxed out serration when Serration has 0 drawbacks.

 

I feel that it is about making fire and electric mods more useful. Don't make the a main source of added damage, give them purpose. Such as mention with Fire. It would spread across to nearby enemies. Electric, cause weapon jams/mis-fire depending on the weapons. Deal extra damage if enemies are on water. Give an effective stun at high levels of the mod.

 

Instead of nerfing power, perhaps give the weapon with the mod a downside. Such as Fire damage would shorten the base clip/magazine size. Ice increases base reload speed. Electric may cause the weapon to fire on it's own.

[Winterbraid]

I guess I'll be the devil's advocate here because many of the points listed in all those 'Warframe is too easy/too simple/too shallow' threads are the exact reasons why me and my friends are enjoying the game.

 

 

First of all, what kind of consequences of a failure - beyond losing the loot from the current instance - would you rather have in an online loot-based action game? Take away a percent of my credits? Force me to repair my suit and weapons? Sure, many games do it, but that kind of "consequence" just discourages new players while advanced players tend to shrug it off - and ultimately it contributes nothing to the actual gameplay other than allowing kids to boast about how "hardcore" their favorite game is. Right now failure in Warframe is only a minor annoyance and doesn't even happen that often - and that's how I like it, because I play games for fun and don't want any pointless frustration.

 

 

Secondly, what exactly is your problem with the mod system? Sure, you could argue that everything is basically a glorified Serration, but progress in this game is RNG-based and the dilution of damage upgrades means it's easier for new players to find damage mods among other drops. This is a remote example, but The Binding of Isaac did a similar thing with health pickups - the game understands that health is one of the most needed resources, so it adds many different pickups to the random pool which all increase your health. The result is the same as making just a single pickup and making it common, but the game is less boring that way. Plus, finding every single damage mod for your gun is a quest in itself - the excitement of finally having found that Split Chamber after over a hundred hours of playing is enough to make me wield my maxed gun with pride for a long, long time.

 

Besides, there's still room for customization in the current system. After Serration, Split Chamber, Piercing Shot, Fast Trigger, and the elemental mod of your choice (assuming you already have all of those), you still have three slots left in your gun. Sure you can be a min-maxer and cram the remaining two elemental mods into it, but keep in mind that elements are additive, not cumulative. Your base damage, 60% piercing and 90% elemental add up to 250%, so adding another 90% on top of that will account for only a 36% effective damage increase; and if you choose to add the last remaining elemental mod on top of that, the effective increase will be only 26% - BEFORE taking into consideration the fact that certain elements are highly ineffective against certain factions.

 

At that point your gun is probably one-shotting everything that isn't a heavy and/or level 100+ either way. And you should probably think about whether you really need that extra fraction of raw damage (spoiler: you don't), or whether you could perhaps go for something more interesting in those last slots - like increased magazine (which also boosts your overall damage output because the time spent reloading is the time spent not shooting), extra criticals, or even that dreaded zoom ratio mod.

 

To sum it up, guns in this game are (mostly) for killing things while abilities are for cool stuff like AoE, DoT, crowd control etc., and mods exist mainly to make the grind more interesting. I can understand if you don't like the system, but I'm personally fine with it the way it is.

 

 

Thirdly: Easy, simple or shallow doesn't mean bad. I know it might sound like a heresy to some, but it's true. Yes, some people only find enjoyment in a game if a moment of deconcentration results in death, victory is always by the skin of their teeth, and they are forced to maintain an Excel spreadsheet of their character in order to succeed. But others - me included - play games for the cathartic excitement of single-handedly slaughtering hordes of enemies, a sense of seamless progression from start to finish, and/or the satisfaction of starting as a wannabe ninja with a puny peashooter and ending up a bullet-spewing death machine samurai of doom.

 

If you win one crowd, you lose the other and vice versa. But there's no point in discussing which kind of game is better, or pushing for a game of one kind to become the other, because both kinds are needed. If Warframe is turning into a game you don't like, perhaps it's time to move on.

 

I like it the way it is right now, I've put hundreds of hours into it and I'm planning to put many more. Sure I won't play it forever, but no game is forever for me; there are so many good games out there that only ever playing one game would be a sin. When that time comes, I'll move on too and I won't regret a single cent I spent on it.

 

 

PS. I agree that the game needs more variety and that parkour should have more impact on combat. But rather than adding new enemies, I feel that the focus right now should be on making the old enemies not look like resized versions of each other with differently colored armor.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Winterbraid

[neKroMancer]

Warframe has a big problem as the OP mentioned : Lack of depth. Depth is about giving player as many choices as possible while restricting them minimal rules. Another problem is contradicion between narrative and gameplay mechanic.

Warframe can be separated into three parts : Pre-mission, mission, and post mission.

Pre-mission : Selecting loadout and mods before going into the mission is the key here. Existing rule isn't enough to create depth. It's just about adding damage mod into your weapon until it's full capacity. Rainbow weapon is the result of said rule which dumb the game down even more.

- Adding more restriction to the mod system is a good start : limit each type of mod which could be equipped into each weapon.

- Give each mod pro and con within itself - +firerate/-accuracy, +maximum ammo/-frame movement speed, +AP damage/-maximum ammo, +electricity damage/-shield recharge rate, etc (just examples, don't fret about them). Make players think, and think hard before customizing their weapon and frame.

Mission: Just about killing without got killed.

Movement - Right now, wallrunning is a good mechanic to go from point A to point B quikly. However, it doesb't lend itself to combat system. Grineer will be able to shoot you while you wallrunning, slide jumping, etc with accuracy that make their drill sergent proud. If the game really want to emphasis on mobility then it should give strength to acrobatic movement more. Decrease AI's accuracy during acrobatic movement?

Combat - DE seem to consider this as a major part of the game. Melee VS range combat. Charge melee vs normal melee. Power design. AI design (stop fixating on stun mechanic, thank you). They know what to do here.

Mission design - This is a big part of the 'mission' which make Warframe extremely linear. All missions = Run from point A to point B while killing everything standing in your way or simply ignore them. All variations, except defenses, are the same with a few bit of variations. No tactic, no strategy whatsoever.

- Add multiple side objectives which affect the gameplay. Howabout blowing up the security control first? Why not shut the entire ship's communication down so that they can't call reinforcement? Blowing the armory up to reduce AI's clipsize?

Post-mission : Biggest offender here. It literally breaks the entire game's narrative while offering no depth whatsoever.

- Why are we wrecking havok on 'cleared' node? How did this help Tenno in the War? Did the Grineer really kill and prosecute us? The Corpus have been trying to build the Sol's economy and transport and we're killing them?

- Why there is no retaliation from Grineer, Corpus, and Infest? They can't hold their territory. They don't launch an assault to take 'Earth' back (hmm, next Grineer boss: Commander Shepard).

- What is the purpose of Lotus apart from popping up on our screen and warn us about 'the Grineer' or large 'bio signature' incoming? Isn't she the one who woke you and pushed you into this war? Why give such minimal role to someone who seemed to be extremely important?

- Who gives us the money? We're killing everyone and not taking side here. I doubt that the Grineer is going to be paying you for Nef Anyo's demise since you managed to kill Cpt. Vor for several hundred times.

The last paragraph ranting is all about contradiction between game mechanic and narrative (and a bit of depth, of course). To change it would change how the game is perceived. The result would be either

A. large scale conflict between faction with Tenno in the middle. Working as freelance mecenary and kill for the highest bidder.

or

B. A war for Tenno's survival.

Bah, lots of rant without much meat.

[BoompigXD]

While i agree with most of your improvements, I am not a fan of these "This is where the game is headed" Threads. Mainly because, we are not the devs. We don't know what Scott or Steve will put in before they tell us. I say, just voice your improvements and don't say "This is where Warframe is Going" because you don't know really know that. As long as we give feedback and suggestions, we change the direction this game goes everyday 

[Argoms]

TL;DR version: Most of your (as in me, the OP) criticisms are subjective and it's perfectly possible to enjoy things the way they are, I (and my friends) do so.

First of all, I think you're mistaking depth for complexity here. Simple and shallow are not the same. A simple game can be extremely deep, a complex game can be extremely shallow. Depth is how you can combine mechanics and how much they interact, complexity is simply how many things are actually are in the first place. Having a game with a lot of depth doesn't mean it can't be simple to pick up and play. Having a deep game doesn't have to mean it's punishing. You can win both crowds, but it requires actual thought in design (which warframe currently seems to lack).  A few examples of simple but deep games would be minecraft, counter strike, and chess. Notice how popular they are?

 

Second, a lot of my criticisms are from the fact that DE seems to act like warframe is a game of consequences etc. If they came out and said that this is a casual/farming game and any improvement is in ability comes from the character, not player, then I wouldn't call them out/criticize them for pretending to be something they're not.

 

Third, room for customization doesn't make this a well-designed system, just a not completely broken one. If more than half of my mods are always going to be the same, why not halve my mod capacity and have those stats scale with weapon level? Less mods in the mod pool, more chance for something more interesting to drop. (To me) Ideally, a mod should never be mandatory, because then it defeats the purpose of giving the player the choice of whether or not to use it.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Argoms

[Abyss0603]

+1 to this topic. The game need more depth, something competitive, something we prefer doing than farming all day long.

[Winterbraid]

First of all, I think you're mistaking depth for complexity here. Simple and shallow are not the same. A simple game can be extremely deep, a complex game can be extremely shallow. Depth is how you can combine mechanics and how much they interact, complexity is simply how many things are actually are in the first place. Having a game with a lot of depth doesn't mean it can't be simple to pick up and play. Having a deep game doesn't have to mean it's punishing. You can win both crowds, but it requires actual thought in design (which warframe currently seems to lack).  A few examples of simple but deep games would be minecraft, counter strike, and chess. Notice how popular they are?

 

I haven't played Minecraft, but from what I've heard about it it doesn't strike me as simple, or easy to pick up and play. It might be like that now because everyone knows what it is about, but in the beginning, people would routinely die because they didn't know they were supposed to build a shelter before night, and it was commonly referred to as a game that more or less requires Google to play successfully. CS or chess can't really be compared to Warframe because they're competitive PvP games, they're as good or as bad as the people you play with. Besides, chess doesn't really seem popular to me these days. I don't know anyone who plays chess actively, I don't see entire shelves of physical chess boards or chess simulators alongside video games in shopping malls...

 

Either way, I won't argue with you if you say simple and shallow aren't the same thing, but that doesn't change the fact that a game can be both simple AND shallow and still be a good game.

 

Take the Serious Sam series, or Painkiller, or even Doom or Quake or Duke Nukem 3D (which are still actively played and modded to this day). There was nothing really deep or complex about them; they had little to no story, you just walked forward clearing room after room of mostly the same enemies and mostly with the same weapons, circle strafing and bunny hopping were about the extent of combat maneuvers, they weren't even very hard on the normal difficulty, and harder difficulties just added more stats to enemies. What they had going for them was the style, the graphics (at their own time, but they can still hold up today), the level design, and the ability to give you the feeling of being a badass hero who can destroy an entire army of enemies.

 

Second, a lot of my criticisms are from the fact that DE seems to act like warframe is a game of consequences etc. If they came out and said that this is a casual/farming game and any improvement is in ability comes from the character, not player, then I wouldn't call them out/criticize them for pretending to be something they're not.

 

I guess you have a point there (the only point I consider valid, to be honest). I've personally never really paid much attention to marketing, I just play the game and judge it for what it is. Developers say various things because being "hardcore" and "old-school" seems to be the "on" thing these days, but any out-of-the-work declarations should always be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Third, room for customization doesn't make this a well-designed system, just a not completely broken one. If more than half of my mods are always going to be the same, why not halve my mod capacity and have those stats scale with weapon level?

 

And what exactly kind of difference would that make? I think it's a pretty clever system actually because it encourages you to swap out between different weapons while still providing an overarching progression goal. It's hard to make your first weapon because you need to 1. level up the weapon, 2. find its mods, 3. rank up the mods. But after that it's easier to make subsequent weapons of the same slot because you only need to level up the weapon, you don't have to find or rank up the mods again.

 

So you both learn to value your current weapon (because you had to level it up, perhaps several times if Forma was involved) and maintain a sense of general improvement (because your mods carry over between different weapons you have).

 

Less mods in the mod pool, more chance for something more interesting to drop. (To me) Ideally, a mod should never be mandatory, because then it defeats the purpose of giving the player the choice of whether or not to use it.

 

Now it just sounds like you want to be playing a completely different game. Every single loot-based game is built around the concept that the best things should be rare, because that's what makes them desirable and that's what makes finding them special.

 

Warframe doesn't have the typical progression of Crude Sword -> Sword -> Fine Sword -> ... -> Legendary Sword, so to me, looting that Split Chamber is the equivalent of finding the Legendary Sword in another game. It has to be "mandatory" to progress beyond a certain point because otherwise there would be no progression (and no point in having the Legendary Sword or a loot system at all), and it has to be rare because you don't want people getting the Legendary Sword in the first hour of gameplay.

 

Warframe achieves both without making your weapons expendable like in other loot games; instead of trashing your weapon for a "Legendary" version, you start with a "Crude" weapon and make it "Legendary" by finding and installing mods. It's a pretty well-designed and rewarding system in my opinion.

[IronRushBR]

Very very nice post.

I agree.

Mod related need more up and downs. Today,  some weapon have setups much better, make some mods useless. We need more pro and cons for weapons, mods, etc... like you said, elemental damage too.

I also think this game easy. We need to be more challenged. Not first planet, but I think until get a better solution, proportional raise the enemy damage (not precision) (specially Grineer and Corpus). Not make our weapons make less damage (sponge like enemies except boss), no. Make enemy more threat, more damage.

I like MUCH to use sniper (here include bow and sniper rifles), I like precision and like to be rewarded for that (with the kill, head pop, blood). But if my sniper need 2, 3 shots to get a normal unit down it would be little effective, much less fun to play with.

 

 

Let's talk about it DE. Ask us. Design council is there also. Let's talk to make this game the BEST!

[Patrusfarr]

All the ideas that the OP has stated I have held and could not have expressed better myself. Currently, I feel no reason to log in unless there is an alert mission occurring with a rare (but probably useless (that I hope will be fixed)) reward. I have essentially seen all of the content this game has to offer. But I know this game has some serious potential.

 

Some of the things that bother me are:

The AI doesn't get anymore interesting (or smarter for that matter) as you progress. I just mow them down faster.

 

I can put basically every useful mod on my weapon so that I don't have to make any choices. There are cool mods out there with stats that can't make a difference really. An example is Metal Auger.

 

All the missions are really the same: run to some location, press x or shoot something, then run to extraction.

 

What am I farming for? To get to higher waves in defense missions? I get the feeling that there is not much up there.

 

Make the game harder without just increasing HP and damage of enemies. Some of the enemies in this game are just down right pathetic. Those infested that crawl on the ground? After 70 hours of playing I finally saw what they do to you when you accidentally step on them. The grineer's missiles travel at about 5 mph, what the hell is this? Those flying drones that drop little glowing orbs. Has anyone ever felt threatened by those? The orbs usually blow up about 30 seconds after the fight has ended.

[IronRushBR]

Up here...

[gell]

OP, you seemed to counter me on everything I said even though half of it was in agreement with you.

I never said freeze should be the way it is because I like it, but I did say I like the way it is and think other mods should be similar to it in utility. I never said anything about making choices, so there's no need to talk about false choices. I said other elements need to step up their utility to compete with the extreme usefulness of freeze's ability to slow enemies. So we agreed here. The other elements need to be good choices. And the huge difference between WF and Spiral Knights in terms of damage types is that WF has "normal damage" on every weapon, and elements are just supplementary. In SK you'd be a fool or a masochist to use a Flourish vs Slimes, but in WF it doesn't matter much if I have an electric or fire mod on my Gram; the damage is barely affected either way and everything dies from the charge attack anyway. But enough of that. We agree elemental damage needs to be looked at.

 

You put a lot of words in my mouth. I didn't say we should only balance for top level, nor did I think DE shouldn't be doing a lot of balance in beta. top level is important to think about, but it's not the only thing. I hope DE is doing their best to keep balancing the game, and perhaps listen a little bit less to the whiners (not you) about every little change they make to the game. I also never said anything about consequences because I didn't disagree with your original point about it. WF doesn't really need to be a game of consequence, but I don't disagree about your point that it isn't, even though DESteve said it was.

 

I should clarify the wall running thing. Sorry about my initial response on wall running, I made it sound like I thought you meant wall running should do more damage. I felt that wall running doesn't need to directly aid combat, and I think it's already successful in its implementation (the wall running and other maneuvers). Mobility can be used for that, and I think any issues you have with it comes down to the fact that enemies have super aimbot cheats turned on. It has nothing to do with the wall running and you're losing focus on the real issue. DE needs to fix the fact that the bots have super aim no matter where you go. They have snap aim, and can track like pro. It shouldn't be this way. Not even UT God-like enemies were always that consistent. I know someone is reading this and thinking "no, don't make the game easier!" but of course, DE has to balance any changes they make. Make the bots unable to perfectly track fast moving targets, but also give them some situational awareness, or ability to lead their shots. UT bots certainly knew how to lead a rocket if they saw you running in a straight line.

 

And I agree that the game needs to be fun, and it needs to grow to make the goals in the game about fun (or other entertainment descriptors). Right now, the game is mostly a weapon/warframe/resource grind, but it's understandable, for now.. What I hate is how many players defend farming and grinding, and think that there's no other point to playing a game aside from grinding for something new. WF needs more depth, and that word is extremely loaded, I know.

 

So, we just need to break down some ideas for DE to consider, and why they're important. I don't have the time right now to make a big list, but I'd suggest they look into satisfying more than the initial wow factor of space ninjas killin' stuff. Right now, that's all WF has going for it. As a brief thought, DE needs to possibly look at satisfying human curiosity through exploration or discovery (of new places and mechanics); truly surprising players with unannounced dynamic in-game events (this can start small and they can keep adding events to the list, and it's not to be confused with organized events which is different); and seeing if they can make the world feel alive, and not just a set of entities spawned into a level.

 

The core gameplay is fun, but it's missing quite a lot in terms of depth. Hopefully they realize that depth does not equal more weapons and levels and maps and enemy types. That's all good stuff but it's not very much depth. As they balance trying to make money, with holding interest, I hope they've got some folks working on a mega secret update that will make players feel like they're doing something, and not just farming for something.