Concerns / Benefits Of The Clan Alliance System - Updated

[shadowkinz]

I read a few of the entries and i thought they made a lot of sense. I just joined broframe bc i am a fan of mikeb and i am greek so the whole bro thing IS a greek thing. It def isn't fair tho to smaller clans. I feel bad :(

[theasl]

Another thing, about the dojo. The larger a clan gets, the more it needs to spend on the dojo. However, if a clan is split up into, say 4 different clans, for all the dojos to be the same they need 4x the resources. So really, a "clan" of 3k+ (Asuro, basically) will need to spend 4000x the normal resources. Of course, if all clans in the alliance had the same dojo and could all contribute, this wouldn't be as much of a problem; however, then other clans who already have their dojos can't join the alliance, keeping the dojos synchronized between the clans in the alliance would be more of a hassle than just keeping track of all (10 max, in Asuro, a clan of 3k+, seriously!) people in the clan at once, etc.

 

Long story short, splitting up large clans will penalize them instead of making things fair, and for all the wrong reasons.

[pdxdubin]

Another thing, about the dojo. The larger a clan gets, the more it needs to spend on the dojo. However, if a clan is split up into, say 4 different clans, for all the dojos to be the same they need 4x the resources. So really, a "clan" of 3k+ (Asuro, basically) will need to spend 4000x the normal resources. Of course, if all clans in the alliance had the same dojo and could all contribute, this wouldn't be as much of a problem; however, then other clans who already have their dojos can't join the alliance, keeping the dojos synchronized between the clans in the alliance would be more of a hassle than just keeping track of all (10 max, in Asuro, a clan of 3k+, seriously!) people in the clan at once, etc.

 

Long story short, splitting up large clans will penalize them instead of making things fair, and for all the wrong reasons.

 

Yup

 

that is exactly the point.

 

Splitting us up will penalize us for no reason.

 

Making things more difficult while we have been here working hard to maintain the clan.

 

It is quite unfair to be honest. 

[NeoDarkSider]

I understand the idea of breaking up a large clan full of great players both full time gamers and casual players is disheartening. Maybe DE wants clans of smaller sizes to have a chance at growing instead of mega clans consuming most of the new players? Maybe DE is looking at the fact if they don't limit clan sizes now, that one day we will have a clan that is 10,000 and then 20,000 and so on?

 

Without limits the current clan competition is unfair. Should DE keep adding/changing the clan tiers because some clans are growing too large? What happen if there is one clan that is 100,000 and the next clan is only 4,000? Is it fair for both of them to compete with each other? Maybe DE just wants the simplest solution to make large clans compete fairly(equal numbers vs equal numbers)? And if you want to still play with your old friends prior to the break down, the new alliance chat will provide that.

 

Just trying to give some constructive feedback in hopes to help others understand this future change and possible reasons behind it. In the end, no matter what DE does there will always be someone who disagrees. Lets just focus on as many new ideas for possible solutions so that hopefully everyone will benefit. 

[shinydunsparce]

I can't wait for the rage when DE either only lets a part of the alliance have the original dojo, or scraps it when they break the clan up. Seriously DE, if this goes through you are pissing off literally the majority of your players, and trashing any time / real money they put into the dojo.

[theasl]

Without limits the current clan competition is unfair. Should DE keep adding/changing the clan tiers because some clans are growing too large? What happen if there is one clan that is 100,000 and the next clan is only 4,000? Is it fair for both of them to compete with each other? Maybe DE just wants the simplest solution to make large clans compete fairly(equal numbers vs equal numbers)? And if you want to still play with your old friends prior to the break down, the new alliance chat will provide that.

Yes, DE should keep adding/changing clan tiers, since that's what they're going to have to do to alliances eventually if those are made. They already (after complaints) made the reward for the last event based off a tier system anyways. And Occam's razor notwithstanding, the simplest solution isn't always the best, especially where fairness is involved.

[pdxdubin]

I understand the idea of breaking up a large clan full of great players both full time gamers and casual players is disheartening. Maybe DE wants clans of smaller sizes to have a chance at growing instead of mega clans consuming most of the new players? Maybe DE is looking at the fact if they don't limit clan sizes now, that one day we will have a clan that is 10,000 and then 20,000 and so on?

 

Without limits the current clan competition is unfair. Should DE keep adding/changing the clan tiers because some clans are growing too large? What happen if there is one clan that is 100,000 and the next clan is only 4,000? Is it fair for both of them to compete with each other? Maybe DE just wants the simplest solution to make large clans compete fairly(equal numbers vs equal numbers)? And if you want to still play with your old friends prior to the break down, the new alliance chat will provide that.

 

Just trying to give some constructive feedback in hopes to help others understand this future change and possible reasons behind it. In the end, no matter what DE does there will always be someone who disagrees. Lets just focus on as many new ideas for possible solutions so that hopefully everyone will benefit. 

 

Yes its fair.

AsurO almost beat broframe even though they have twice the members.

 

Its not about size or fairness.

Small clans have just as much chance as we do.

 

you see.

Back when all the other clans were big

 

Like GTC

 

we only had 10 members.

 

We were the under dogs.

Back when they were a strong 500.

 

Now we are at 4000.

 

Why?

 

Because of our dedication, and our amazing clan.

 

So can you still say that its fair to cut our clan to give small clans a chance?

We did not cheat or exploit anything.

We earned our members and we should have something to show for it.

 

To be completely blunt.

 

They are basically hitting large clans very hard, we did nothing wrong.

 

But maybe its the opposite.

 

We don't know anything about this change and I understand this now.

 

I just want to prevent the bad parts from happening before DE shoots themselves in the foot. 

 

again

[theasl]

And Warframe Japan almost beat us and Broframe, even though they have less than half the members of us and <1/4 of them.

Edited July 9, 2013 by theasl

[pdxdubin]

Yes, DE should keep adding/changing clan tiers, since that's what they're going to have to do to alliances eventually if those are made. They already (after complaints) made the reward for the last event based off a tier system anyways. And Occam's razor notwithstanding, the simplest solution isn't always the best, especially where fairness is involved.

 

I think

 

DE just needs to remove the competition in all as a whole.

They are boring and just cause drama.

 

Like i said

 

Make the challenge internal not external.

 

Let the clans themselves compete for a guaranteed reward. 

 

Because if you want to talk about fairness.

 

Then take warframe japan out of the competition.

Because They are going to dominate every event if they are capped off at 1000 members.

 

Competitions should be open.

 

Small clans have just as much of an opportunity to become large.

 

Look at giant pink octopus.

 

PRIME example.

 

People are begging to join this clan but they closed it.

 

Do you understand?

 

 

Small clans are small because they do not appeal to the audience.

 

You have to put in the extra effort to open up a big clan.

 

And taking away the member portion of large clans.

 

Is well messed up.

 

Im sorry but its true.

We did nothing to exploit the system.

We just enjoy the game, and recruit people who want to enjoy it with us.

 

 

 

Hopefully DE understands

 

That the rest of us did not just zerg out people over a week.

 

And the 90% of us actually deserve to maintain these clan sizes.

 

If anything just cap the sizes and grand father us in like you said you would in the first place.

 

 

[pdxdubin]

And Warframe Japan almost beat us and Broframe, even though they have less than half the members of us and <1/4 of them.

 

This is 100% my point.

 

All clans have their own strengths.

 

AsurO has its size AND its dedication.

 

Broframe has its size.

 

Warframe japan has its dedication.

 

 

 

Taking away our size is basically the same thing as flipping us off after all the work we put into the clan.

 

 

Its whatever,

 

Hopefully DE cares about us to reconsider this outrageous blow to large clans. 

[theasl]

Another point - having an alliance chat would defeat the purpose. Part of DE's reasoning is the lag caused by the large numbers of players all being connected to each other. With another chat, the number of connections is even more. That entire line of reasoning is basically bullsh*t. 

 

I'm getting tired of this game. Not because of the players, not because of the content - because of the devs. I understand not every decision they make is going to be welcomed by everyone, but when you hit some of your most dedicated players like this...

 

(Edit: accidentally hit save early.)

Edited July 9, 2013 by theasl

[pdxdubin]

Another point - having an alliance chat would defeat the purpose. Part of DE's reasoning is the lag caused by the large numbers of players all being connected to each other. With another chat, the number of connections is even more. That entire line of reasoning is basically bullsh*t. 

 

I'm getting tired of this game. Not because of the players, not because of the content - because of the devs. I understand not every decision they make is going to be welcomed by everyone, but when you hit some of your most dedicated players like this...

 

(Edit: accidentally hit save early.)

 

 

Yea I dont really understand how this is supposed to fix the lag either?

 

We are not even getting any lag anyways

 

This is all kinda bull S#&amp;&#036; lol.

 

 

I mean if the UI is laggy now.

 

Whats going to happen when we start an alliance with 10,000 people?

 

 

Because it will happen.

[NeoDarkSider]

Currently we don't know whats going to be done about alliances. But I think its going to be more of a chat tab function. And will be used to help smaller clans slowly unite into bigger clans. And it does seem odd with the line of reasoning about the lag chat issues.

 

Well it seems everyone's definition of FAIR is different now days. Like I said in my original post "compete fairly(equal numbers vs equal numbers)."

 

Another point is number of clans competing in each tier. By adding the clan limit, there will be more competition in the higher tier. Maybe this is what DE really wants?

 

Clan limits will result in more clans and therefore the possibility of additional plat is spent on future rooms in the dojo. (So that DE makes more money)

 

And I agree that reward structure should be changed to a either a flat tiered reward system and/or a combination of both the current and tiered rewards.

 

Edit: I'm just trying to play Devil's Advocate to come up with some reasoning behind the future changes. Maybe We should put together a small list of really important questions (about alliances and clan sizes)to ask DE during next live stream and up vote them to make sure we are heard.

Edited July 9, 2013 by NeoDarkSider

[theasl]

Currently we don't know whats going to be done about alliances. But I think its going to be more of a chat tab function. And will be used to help smaller clans slowly unite into bigger clans. And it does seem odd with the line of reasoning about the lag chat issues.

 

Well it seems everyone's definition of FAIR is different now days. Like I said in my original post "compete fairly(equal numbers vs equal numbers)."

 

Another point is number of clans competing in each tier. By adding the clan limit, there will be more competition in the higher tier. Maybe this is what DE really wants?

 

Clan limits will result in more clans and therefore the possibility of additional plat is spent on future rooms in the dojo. (So that DE makes more money)

 

And I agree that reward structure should be changed to a either a flat tiered reward system and/or a combination of both the current and tiered rewards.

Well, after all the complaining in this event, I hope DE never does one of these again, but that's for another thread entirely. If so, the equal numbers argument would be moot. Another way around it would be a kill:member (or maybe members with kills, to keep it more accurate) ratio, which I'm surprised nobody at DE thought of.

What dubin is getting at is the amount of work put in to recruiting and maintaining such a large clan/dojo, as well as the increase in such work needed if the single clan splits up. As the large clans have had to do exponentially more work already and the new system would force us to do proportionally even more work, it is in our eyes quite unfair. 

[dreampuke]

I have lots of opinions surrounding these recent events, but to avoid conflict I'll only post this: 

 

DE needed to implement the cap earlier, and trying to put a low cap on it now is simply a bad idea.

 

What they need to do: change the cap so it's slightly higher than Broframe's member list,

 

and when Broframe stops growing other clans can have a chance to grow until they reach

 the cap as well.

 

This in turn will eventually make all large clans equal (once they reach the cap), and allows for the smaller clans to grow.

Edited July 9, 2013 by dreampuke

[theasl]

I have lots of opinions surrounding these recent events, but to avoid conflict I'll only post this: 

 

DE needed to implement the cap earlier, and trying to put a low cap on it now is simply a bad idea.

 

What they should do: change the cap so it's slightly higher than Broframe's member list,

 

and when Broframe stops growing other clans can have a chance to grow until they reach

 the cap as well.

this. yes. (maybe 7.5k? or 5k if the broframe people can get their sh*t together and weed out the inactives)

[NeoDarkSider]

Well, after all the complaining in this event, I hope DE never does one of these again, but that's for another thread entirely. If so, the equal numbers argument would be moot. Another way around it would be a kill:member (or maybe members with kills, to keep it more accurate) ratio, which I'm surprised nobody at DE thought of.

What dubin is getting at is the amount of work put in to recruiting and maintaining such a large clan/dojo, as well as the increase in such work needed if the single clan splits up. As the large clans have had to do exponentially more work already and the new system would force us to do proportionally even more work, it is in our eyes quite unfair. 

Maybe you misread or misunderstood my original post or I wasn't clear enough. When i was referring to fair and equal numbers its was in relation to what DE is doing with clan limits. With clan limits, Largest clans will have equal numbers vs equal numbers. So I don't understand why you think my argument is moot in the context with which i presented it.

 

Another idea is that in some mmo games like DDO there is a daily upkeep cost directly related to the clan size. So clans of larger sizes can have all their benifits of being large but still have to pay to balanced things out. But I suspect no one here would like this idea. As it promotes all players to be active some what. And it seems larger clans like the idea of carrying casual players.

Edited July 9, 2013 by NeoDarkSider

[dreampuke]

this. yes. (maybe 7.5k? or 5k if the broframe people can get their sh*t together and weed out the inactives)

Too bad this idea will probably be ignored.

[theasl]

Maybe you misread or misunderstood my original post or I wasn't clear enough. When i was referring to fair and equal numbers its was in relation to what DE is doing with clan limits. With clan limits, Largest clans will have equal numbers vs equal numbers. So I don't understand why you think my argument is moot in the context with which i presented it.

 

Another idea is that in some mmo games like DDO there is a daily upkeep cost directly related to the clan size. So clans of larger sizes can have all their benifits of being large but still have to pay to balanced things out. But I suspect no one here would like this idea. As it promotes all players to be active some what. And it seems larger clans like the idea of carrying casual players.

It would be moot if there was never again an opportunity for clans to compete, eh? That was what I meant. Sorry if we misunderstood each other!

 

You're quite right about nobody liking the upkeep idea. Although it would make for an interesting credit sink, it would be kind of hard to implement in this game, with regards to both technical problems and player happiness. 

 

Too bad this idea will probably be ignored.

=(

[pdxdubin]

Currently we don't know whats going to be done about alliances. But I think its going to be more of a chat tab function. And will be used to help smaller clans slowly unite into bigger clans. And it does seem odd with the line of reasoning about the lag chat issues.

 

Well it seems everyone's definition of FAIR is different now days. Like I said in my original post "compete fairly(equal numbers vs equal numbers)."

 

Another point is number of clans competing in each tier. By adding the clan limit, there will be more competition in the higher tier. Maybe this is what DE really wants?

 

Clan limits will result in more clans and therefore the possibility of additional plat is spent on future rooms in the dojo. (So that DE makes more money)

 

And I agree that reward structure should be changed to a either a flat tiered reward system and/or a combination of both the current and tiered rewards.

 

Edit: I'm just trying to play Devil's Advocate to come up with some reasoning behind the future changes. Maybe We should put together a small list of really important questions (about alliances and clan sizes)to ask DE during next live stream and up vote them to make sure we are heard.

 

 

Well honestly our clan has already given DE like 100$ from when we first started buliding the dojos.

 

Equal numbers may seem fair to you.

 

But then think of it this way.

 

Is it fair for a 500 person clan to compete with a 1000 person clan?

 

There will never be a "fair" number.

 

 

It is unfair however for DE to just pick a random number and make clans conform to it.

 

Imagine if they made all clans a maximum of 100 people.

 

Trust me if they did that ALOT of people would be pretty pissed off.

 

 

So think about it from that point of view, because its basically the same thing that they are doing to our clans..

[pdxdubin]

Too bad this idea will probably be ignored.

 

Broframe has +1k  plus pending invites

 

and probably over 2000 inactive / alt accounts.

 

DE obviously only cares about the issues in broframe.

 

For whatever issue.

 

They did it to themselves, so let them fix their own problems.

[Orthusaku]

I have a question, outside of events what is so bad about the 1k limit? Since you can still communicate with the sister clan members via alliance chat, group with sister clan members via chat, All the social aspects seem to have been preserved in a new form.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Orthusaku

[Solaurus]

Prime example of DE catering to the whiners in favor of listening to what most of the people want or looking at the facts. People are always going to blame the people that are larger or better off. If Warframe Japan can come close to beating a 4000+ member clan with less then 1000+ members, then that just says something about other clans. I say bravo to Warframe Japan. DE is just smacking large clans in the face, when they can just restrict us from adding more people or actually adding a cap before things got out of hand.

[pdxdubin]

I have a question, outside of events what is so bad about the 1k limit? Since you can still communicate with the sister clan members via alliance chat, group with sister clan members via chat, All the social aspects seem to have been preserved in a new form.

 

Because I don't see the point of a 1k limit.

 

Not when our clan is doing fine at 4k.

It just complicates things.

 

the main issue.

 

Is with 4 separate clans.

 

There are 4 separate chats.

 

4 separate dojos. 

 

 

Which means the clan is literally being split up and our community will not be as active as it is now.

 

And that itself is not fair.

 

 

Its really just plain stupid.

 

It is an excuse to split the large clans up.

 

This alliance system is probably just going to be a chat that connects all 4 clans together.

 

And each group will feel isolated.

 

Not to mention the head ache that we now have to go through to manage all of this mess.

 

 

Things need to be left how they are.

 

I know for sure I have 1k inactives in our clan.

 

Somewhere around there.

 

Broframe could lose 2-3k of their members as well.

 

DE needs to just fix our large clans and cap them.

 

Cap all clans at 2000 and grandfather the large ones in.

 

And make smaller clans easier to function.

 

This alliance update seems like poo 

[pdxdubin]

Prime example of DE catering to the whiners in favor of listening to what most of the people want or looking at the facts. People are always going to blame the people that are larger or better off. If Warframe Japan can come close to beating a 4000+ member clan with less then 1000+ members, then that just says something about other clans. I say bravo to Warframe Japan. DE is just smacking large clans in the face, when they can just restrict us from adding more people or actually adding a cap before things got out of hand.

 

 

True

 

But asuro also almost beat broframe

 

We have half of there members.

 

 

It all goes to show that member lists don't mean S#&amp;&#036;.

 

What DE is actually doing is screwing up the balance.

 

Smacking large clans in the face for no reason.

They are not exploiting, they are not cheating.

 

Its not unfair.

 

Just because these large clans were capable of inviting more people does not mean the smaller clans need to be compensated for it.

 

They need to get there S#&amp;&#036; together and figure out why no one is joining them.

 

 

But now DE is going to baby them and make everything balanced.

 

Which in turn will make all of these large clans weak as hell by splitting the active player base among 4 separate clans.