Concerns / Benefits Of The Clan Alliance System - Updated

[SAYO]

Damn, this issue is gonna be tricky to tackle with! I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the whole suggested concept and all the concerns that were discussed in this thread. I'm so glad different leaders of the big clans were able to post their opinions here and discuss in a civilized way. It allows us to see the general feeling and thoughts of those who will be affected first hand from this new update.

 

Near the end of the OP's text, I don't know if people paid attention to where he talked about the clans each having to reach a goal according to their sizes. Instead of competing with each other, the clans each have to reach a certain quota in order for their clannies to receive the reward. I absolutely think this is a great idea and would eliminate many rage threads in the future. Because when they put different clans against each other, it will cause competition and the new alliance system is far from being fair in its design, people will become very enraged if they lose. I love the idea of maintanining a spirit of cooperation and attaining a goal collectively. I feel we are a small race and should work together instead of competing to get a reward, we would be no better than the grineer :(

 

Also, this whole alliance systems feels more like just different clans. The dojo will be separate and it feels like the chat will just be limited to officers of each subdivision. It just feels disconnected and one division will always be the "main headquarters" or the "active" one. The other divisions will feel isolated and not part of the "real" clan. That's the best I can express my thoughts I hope some of you understand what I mean.

 

At the same time I know DE is trying their best to put a cap on evergrowing clans such as broframe. But from what I read on the forums, it seems they are harming the other clans just to fix the uncontrolled actions of one clan.

 

I'll continue reading this thread to see if we can come up with any suggestions to this new system and how it will work out.

[pdxdubin]

We need to keep voicing our opinions, This is the whole point of the forums.

 

 

Also.

Someone conveyed a very logical point to me.

 

What is the difference for a clan with 500 players competing in the 101-1000 bracket.

 

To a clan of 1001 players competing with a clan of 4000 players?

 

Why are large clans the only ones being targeted..

It is obviously not thought out well.  And I would hate to see large clans suffer after all the work they did.

 

 

DE please consider what I said.

 

If this is about fairness and balance.

 

You will never be able to balance events.

 

There is no cheating when it comes to size.

 

We are big because people want to join us.

 

From the very beginning you all saw asuro as a spec.

Now look how big we are, it is not because of our dojo or our exploits.

 

It is because of our basic fundamentals as a clan, and our community.

 

 

What needs to be done here,

 

Is this alliance system needs to become an Optional Tool.

Which I WOULD USE, 100% to great extent to divide my community up into the roles they want to fit into.

 

The event system needs to be reworked, and balance and fairness needs to be taken out of the equation.

 

 

Real balance.

 

Is to give ALL clans, and ALL groups an equal opportunity to earn something from these events no matter their size or origin.

 

That is what this is all about.

[-CdG-Revo]

Now there are many things I can quote that is not going to help and some that will. You can see for yourself who actually has the right idea of it. Now even this might not help, but what we are doing here is saying the same things over and over. Now I do not need to defend our HARD WORKING DE, who by far really is trying to better the game in whole.

I still see your worries, the happy family divided, the future of dojo copy and pasted and not helping small clans.

First: you do realise even divided there are still 999 other family members to talk to and join on missions.

Second:I've seen a clan of 180 still mowing through the dojo builds. So in hopes of slowing this down is in flames.

Third: there is nothing you can do now, maybe in a month or two this topic will truly shine. Do you really want the DE to stop everything they are already busy on for this? The update will be no doubt be stressful for everyone.

Fourth: the competitions and clan rankings will sort itself out, do you really think DE has not thought of this?

What I'm trying to say AGAIN is it is already in motion

Keep calm

And

Play warframe

We all just will have to wait for update 9 so we can whine about the ACTUAL PROBLEMS WE HAVE SEEN AND LIVED.

Now I am open for any more discussions about this.

[pdxdubin]

Now there are many things I can quote that is not going to help and some that will. You can see for yourself who actually has the right idea of it. Now even this might not help, but what we are doing here is saying the same things over and over. Now I do not need to defend our HARD WORKING DE, who by far really is trying to better the game in whole.

I still see your worries, the happy family divided, the future of dojo copy and pasted and not helping small clans.

First: you do realise even divided there are still 999 other family members to talk to and join on missions.

Second:I've seen a clan of 180 still mowing through the dojo builds. So in hopes of slowing this down is in flames.

Third: there is nothing you can do now, maybe in a month or two this topic will truly shine. Do you really want the DE to stop everything they are already busy on for this? The update will be no doubt be stressful for everyone.

Fourth: the competitions and clan rankings will sort itself out, do you really think DE has not thought of this?

What I'm trying to say AGAIN is it is already in motion

Keep calm

And

Play warframe

We all just will have to wait for update 9 so we can whine about the ACTUAL PROBLEMS WE HAVE SEEN AND LIVED.

Now I am open for any more discussions about this.

 

Your 100% correct.

 

There is not much to say other then what has already been said.

We are now blindly arguing about what ifs in a system that is not even set in stone.

 

I created a new thread, that I pulled from this discussion to hopefully include some of the main points that were made

 

And we can actually find a way to resolve this issue with possible changes / tweaks instead of me whining and complaining with no real benefit.

[gell]

Dude... why don't you make your post a little more compact? It is painful just to look at, not to mention read!

 

He likes his posts big, spread out, impersonal and hard to take part in, just like he likes his giant clans!

[pdxdubin]

He likes his posts big, spread out, impersonal and hard to take part in, just like he likes his giant clans!

 

Small clans still have to compete with 1000 player clans

 

Nothing is getting fixed.

 

This involves all of us. 

[CloudPies]

Haiku to Pdxdubin

 

 

 

 

Your posts are like

 

 

 

Old threadbare shawls

 

 

 

Keeps no one happy.

 

 

 

 

 

It would make tenno

 

 

 

joyful, if you would consider

 

 

 

using Paragraphs.

Edited July 10, 2013 by CloudPies

[pdxdubin]

Haiku to Pdxdubin

 

 

 

 

Your posts are like

 

 

 

Old threadbare shawls

 

 

 

Keeps no one happy.

 

 

 

 

 

It would make tenno

 

 

 

joyful, if you would consider

 

 

 

using Paragraphs.

 

 

Sorry Iol, its just a weird habit I picked up from working on something in our thread, thanks for letting me know. 

[WordsAreEnough]

Small clans still have to compete with 1000 player clans

 

Nothing is getting fixed.

 

This involves all of us. 

 

 

I keep seeing in this thread over and over again that big clans don't want to let go of their dojos. That is more likely what the clan limitations are really about in the end. Dojos aren't supposed to be completely simple to throw together and I'm sure DE is getting tired of huge clans mowing through Dojo content. If you're part of a big clan and can't let go of your easy-mode dojo then you are likely the reason this is happening.

 

They never expected Clans to become this large, that's why they didn't have a cap before. Now they know they need one to make sure their content is progressed at a rate they feel is fair and appropriate. Be grateful the cap is so large, many games have caps half that size or smaller. If you have any suggestions for the alliance system then you should all really start a new thread that includes suggestions for needs from such a system, but don't expect that you're going to get to keep a communal dojo.

[CloudPies]

Now they know they need one to make sure their content is progressed at a rate they feel is fair and appropriate.

Yea, whats $&*&*#(%& with that line of argument is that smaller clans will have the resource costs reduced :)

 

All you're going to encourage is $&*^ moves, like kicking someone right after they've donated resources.

[pdxdubin]

 

 

I don't really think dojo's are the issue.

You don't understand

 

"THERE NOT TAKING OUR DOJO AWAY"

 

THERE GIVING US 4 DOJOS

 

THERE GIVING BROFRAME 9 DOJOS

 

 

That is the issue

 

lol 

 

you have it backwards :P 

[WordsAreEnough]

I don't really think dojo's are the issue.

You don't understand

 

"THERE NOT TAKING OUR DOJO AWAY"

 

THERE GIVING US 4 DOJOS

 

THERE GIVING BROFRAME 9 DOJOS

 

 

That is the issue

 

lol 

 

you have it backwards :P 

 

Individual Dojos that will need to be progressed separately moving forward. Yes, it is the issue. They don't want people cheating the Dojo system by throwing 9000 people at them.

[CloudPies]

Individual Dojos that will need to be progressed separately moving forward. Yes, it is the issue. They don't want people cheating the Dojo system by throwing 9000 people at them.

 

....you want 9 broframes? :S

[pdxdubin]

Individual Dojos that will need to be progressed separately moving forward. Yes, it is the issue. They don't want people cheating the Dojo system by throwing 9000 people at them.

 

Then that is the dojo system.

 

Not the clan.

 

People don't stay in our clan because of a dojo 

 

And splitting a clan up because of it is unjustified.

 

But I agree, this content takes a while to make.

it should not be so easy to access.

 

So then why not just change the way dojos are even created.

 

Why not make the dojo's more expensive the larger they get.

 

Or find some other middle ground

[pdxdubin]

....you want 9 broframes? :S

 

Yeah.

 

honestly this seems like the most ridiculous idea DE could ever come up with.

 

 

1000 player clans can build dojos just as fast as any other clan.

 

How is this going to fix anything. 

[WordsAreEnough]

Then that is the dojo system.

 

Not the clan.

 

People don't stay in our clan because of a dojo 

 

And splitting a clan up because of it is unjustified.

 

But I agree, this content takes a while to make.

it should not be so easy to access.

 

So then why not just change the way dojos are even created.

 

Why not make the dojo's more expensive the larger they get.

 

Or find some other middle ground

 

They gave you a middle ground and you don't want it. This is the whiniest post session I've seen on here to date. Clans are going to get capped and some people are going to end up unhappy, but it's something DE knows they need to do so they can ensure their vision of Warframe moves forward in a way they want to support. It's easier to use the system as it is correct this error (letting clans get this big in the first place) than to try and make a bunch of new extra stuff and programming to solve it and in this case it's better that they devote resources to other tasks (new content, smoother UI, etc.) than hold together a bunch of huge clans.

 

In the end you've just gone in circles in here anyway. You want to keep your Dojo, I get it. They don't want you to have thousands of people working on the same Dojo. You say it's for the community. Alliances let you keep the community. There's no win to get and no middle ground that will make you happy because you aren't willing to accept any kind of change.

[CloudPies]

They gave you a middle ground and you don't want it. This is the whiniest post session I've seen on here to date. Clans are going to get capped and some people are going to end up unhappy, but it's something DE knows they need to do so they can ensure their vision of Warframe moves forward in a way they want to support. It's easier to use the system as it is correct this error (letting clans get this big in the first place) than to try and make a bunch of new extra stuff and programming to solve it and in this case it's better that they devote resources to other tasks (new content, smoother UI, etc.) than hold together a bunch of huge clans.

 

In the end you've just gone in circles in here anyway. You want to keep your Dojo, I get it. They don't want you to have thousands of people working on the same Dojo. You say it's for the community. Alliances let you keep the community. There's no win to get and no middle ground that will make you happy because you aren't willing to accept any kind of change.

 

To be honest, if they came out and flat out said: We think there should be a max of 1000 people in a clan as that coincides with our vision for the community of a clan and the progression/resources will be balanced around that number. Fair enough.

 

What we're getting is: There are technical issues so we're gonna cut your clan into 4 pieces even though you've never experienced the lag. KTHXBAI!

 

 

Most people have problems with how the clans will be split, the differing requirements between tiers, the need for more tiers, social impact of tiers being directly relative to resources needed, what it means for future competitions, etc.

[pdxdubin]

They gave you a middle ground and you don't want it. This is the whiniest post session I've seen on here to date. Clans are going to get capped and some people are going to end up unhappy, but it's something DE knows they need to do so they can ensure their vision of Warframe moves forward in a way they want to support. It's easier to use the system as it is correct this error (letting clans get this big in the first place) than to try and make a bunch of new extra stuff and programming to solve it and in this case it's better that they devote resources to other tasks (new content, smoother UI, etc.) than hold together a bunch of huge clans.

 

In the end you've just gone in circles in here anyway. You want to keep your Dojo, I get it. They don't want you to have thousands of people working on the same Dojo. You say it's for the community. Alliances let you keep the community. There's no win to get and no middle ground that will make you happy because you aren't willing to accept any kind of change.

 

I don't think you understand the point of the change.

DE specifically said this nerf is for technical issues.

 

1000 people can still kick out a dojo very quickly, why don't you understand us.

 

If what you say is true then DE is only fixing this problem for the short run.

 

And once the smaller clans build the dojos, Then what?

 

There clan is still small and their communities are still broken up.

 

Pointless.

 

 

DE said nothing about the dojo

Support, rebecca, no one said its about the dojo

 

Its about technical issues.

 

So that is why there is no point in having 4 of the SAME DOJOS

 

in 4 of the SAME CLANS

 

it just seems redundant and unnecessary.

 

Lazy and pointless.

It won't fix the lag if were still connected, It won't make events fair.

It will only upset 1000's of people who actually play the game because they enjoy being a part of a massive community.

 

 

I started a new thread, we should move to it.

 

Actually sorry.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/76283-de-a-personal-opinion-on-alliances-and-events-what-can-be-changed-what-to-improve/

 

This thread states what we need to see out of this change.

 

 

I may be whining, but at the same time you don't understand what im whining about.

 

We just want an alliance chat

 

and we want a single dojo so that we don't have to go through the headache

 

"which dojo are you in man"

 

" oh im in dojo #4 " 

 

"hey bro i dont see you"

 

"oh S#&$ I joined Dojo #3 my bad"

 

"oh I just joined dojo #2 let me join dojo #3"

 

I mean seriously DE?

 

This is the best you could come up with to fix the clans?

 

[pdxdubin]

To be honest, if they came out and flat out said: We think there should be a max of 1000 people in a clan as that coincides with our vision for the community of a clan and the progression/resources will be balanced around that number. Fair enough.

 

What we're getting is: There are technical issues so we're gonna cut your clan into 4 pieces even though you've never experienced the lag. KTHXBAI!

 

 

Most people have problems with how the clans will be split, the differing requirements between tiers, the need for more tiers, social impact of tiers being directly relative to resources needed, what it means for future competitions, etc.

 

This is obviously

 

a bandaid fix to avoid the lag issues with clans.

DE does not care about balance obviously, they don't care about the dojos.

 

1000 people can still rush a dojo in a day, its obvious, look at warbros.

 

So it is 100% apparent that this update is there to halfass the lag issues,

 

And cover them up instead of fixing them.

 

[CrunkTanium]

Reminds me of the cluster#$% with clans that had a big part in killing Global Agenda.

Basically a few clans became so powerful there was no one who could stand in their way. Those clans cherry picked the best of the best to dominate everyone else and then cried constantly about lack of competition. In the end the Dev's tried to cater primarily to these few elitist clans thinking they alone would bring home the Bacon. Unfortunately those of us who actually enjoy the challenge of pug's got fed up and took our money elsewhere.

Instead of what happened in GA being a PVP oriented game where skill truly mattered. In Warframe it's become a giant zerg fest where players think they should win purely based on numbers. Big clusters of players many of whom will never even interact with each other all jumping on the same wagon. Like others said you guys did this so you could have EZ mode Dojo's and steamroll any content or clan in your wake. Deny this if you like but lets face it big clans require tons of work and nobody runs a large clan just for the sake of others. There is always a core group who end up being favored ALWAYS and especially when it comes to wealth sharing. So basically you made your beds and unfortunately now you're going to have to lie in them and accept whatever DE decides.

This is a game I don't want to indulge in politics in a game I want to kill things without obligations to anyone. I did the Guild/Clan thing in all those other actual MMO's such as Lineage, WOW, Guild Wars.. and after a while it gets old. If I have to lick a castle/keep/dojo owners crown jewels to enjoy the competitive side of Warframe I bet the door will be hitting myself and many others on the way out. So DE needs to decide if they want to cater to the clans who think they make the game or the general population. I think the developers are smart enough to realize who is really worth keeping but we will just have to wait and see.

Edited July 10, 2013 by CrunkTanium

[pdxdubin]

Reminds me of the cluster#$% with clans that had a big part in killing Global Agenda.

Basically a few clans became so powerful there was no one who could stand in their way. Those clans cherry picked the best of the best to dominate everyone else and then cried constantly about lack of competition. In the end the Dev's tried to cater primarily to these few elitist clans thinking they alone would bring home the Bacon. Unfortunately those of us who actually enjoy the challenge of pug's got fed up and took our money elsewhere.

Instead of what happened in GA being a PVP oriented game where skill truly mattered. In Warframe it's become a giant zerg fest where players think they should win purely based on numbers. Big clusters of players many of whom will never even interact with each other all jumping on the same wagon. Like others said you guys did this so you could have EZ mode Dojo's and steamroll any content or clan in your wake. Deny this if you like but lets face it big clans require tons of work and nobody runs a large clan just for the sake of others. There is always a core group who end up being favored ALWAYS and especially when it comes to wealth sharing. So basically you made your beds and unfortunately now you're going to have to lie in them and accept whatever DE decides.

This is a game I don't want to indulge in politics in a game I want to kill things without obligations to anyone. I did the Guild/Clan thing in all those other actual MMO's such as Lineage, WOW, Guild Wars.. and after a while it gets old. If I have to lick a castle/keep/dojo owners crown jewels to enjoy the competitive side of Warframe I bet the door will be hitting myself and many others on the way out. So DE needs to decide if they want to cater to the clans who think they make the game or the general population. I think the developers are smart enough to realize who is really worth keeping but we will just have to wait and see.

 

Well its true.

Like I have been trying to say, Just take the competition out of it.

Why are we competing anyways in a Pve game?

 

It makes no sense.

 

These clans did not stay here to win events, or to beat other people.

 

The only reason they are in these clans is to hang out and have fun.

 

And the only other way you can get an environment you see in our clans is to go into region chat and get yelled at.

 

But in large clans you have the same flow of people, without the negativity due to it being regulated.

 

 

 

Its simple to just remove the competition from events and make it so every clan has a chance.

 

Don't promote #1 clans because that literally makes all the other clans feel like they are less good.

While that's not true.

What does killing stuff over and over for 40 hours straight prove?

 

Nothing.

 

And it should not be based on a competition.

 

DE needs to evaluate all of this stuff and think about the future. 

 

 

Like.

The informer event.

it took 20 kills for players to get the snipetron.

 

Remove competition, and just leave it as an "event"

 

Let clans, (based on teirs) work towards a goal of maybe 50,000, 100,000, 200,000 informers, And they will get a statue as a reward.

 

Just to show that they were determined.

 

I don't know.

 

if you really think that will make things fair (warframe japan will win every event)

[pdxdubin]

Forget it guys.

 

Lets stop fighting about this.

DE heard what we had to say, Now we leave the cards on the table.

lets wait for the game to play out.

 

Meanwhile, I'm going to listen to this and enjoy the game :) 

 

Lets end the discussion here until further updates emerge.

[CrunkTanium]

Its simple to just remove the competition from events and make it so every clan has a chance.

 

Don't promote #1 clans because that literally makes all the other clans feel like they are less good.

While that's not true.

What does killing stuff over and over for 40 hours straight prove?

 

Nothing.

 

And it should not be based on a competition.

 

DE needs to evaluate all of this stuff and think about the future. 

 

 

Like.

The informer event.

it took 20 kills for players to get the snipetron.

 

Remove competition, and just leave it as an "event"

 

Let clans, (based on teirs) work towards a goal of maybe 50,000, 100,000, 200,000 informers, And they will get a statue as a reward.

 

Just to show that they were determined.

 

Well you see being a PVE only game while wanting to be more is what really hurts Warframe. The Dev's obviously want to work towards a system like WOW where Guilds would spend days, weeks, months trying to get worlds first. It's addictive and lets face it these events work to get players to login and participate. Even if you don't like the competitive nature the end result is that it's working to get people to play more. Without people playing this game is done because it's based around group play. Just look at most of the planets right now if your lucky you will see an open group or two but they are becoming less and less outside of the big clans. If that trend continues everyone will end up having to be in the same clan just to be able to get a group.

Edited July 10, 2013 by CrunkTanium

[pdxdubin]

Well you see being a PVE only game while wanting to be more is what really hurts Warframe. The Dev's obviously want to work towards a system like WOW where Guilds would spend days, weeks, months trying to get worlds first. It's addictive and lets face it these events work to get players to login and participate. Even if you don't like the competitive nature the end result is that it's working to get people to play more. Without people playing this game is done because it's based around group play. Just look at most of the planets right now if your lucky you will see an open group or two but they are becoming less and less outside of the big clans. If that trend continues everyone will end up having to be in the same clan just to be able to get a group.

Posted Today, 10:12 PM

Forget it guys.

 

Lets stop fighting about this.

DE heard what we had to say, Now we leave the cards on the table.

lets wait for the game to play out.

 

Meanwhile, I'm going to listen to this and enjoy the game :) 

 

Lets end the discussion here until further updates emerge.

[Parinirvana]

Hey guys, so I have experienced with the Alliance thing in another MMO called Jade Dynasty. It's pretty much like this in Jade Dynasty, and probably similar to Warframe as well:

 

- Clans can join together to become alliance, there will be warlords who govern the clan, so that if they decide to leave the alliance the warlord can do that.

- There is a headmaster of the alliance, who can appoint roles in the alliance, but cannot remove warlord status.

- All the clans under the alliance have Alliance chat and clan chat, so everyone in different clans but under the same alliance can still communicate with each other.

- If there are members in the clans who are inactive, it is the warlords' duty to remove them after warning, and recruit new members.

- If you want to switch clan you can, maybe because your warlord decides to move to a different alliance but you like the current one.

- 24 hours cool down to join another clan.

- When you join a clan under an alliance you automatically join that alliance.

 

This is pretty much how DE is planning. Even if your clans are split you still communicate with each other the same way, and the ranking is probably split into alliance category and clan category.

 

 

However, one thing I don't understand is, what about the dojo? is the dojo alliance based or clan based, and will different clans have their own dojo, and the alliance have their bigger dojo in the future for all the members of the clan, with exclusive research belongs only to the alliance dojo?

 

Anyway, this is my take on this issue, hope this helps.

 

BTW Lone Rangers FTW!!!