Old Topic Might Be Old, But Infested Are Annoying

[Aizeol]

Yes, I am about to rant slightly, and no I do not have a solution ready in mind. That being said, let's get on with the cause of my frustration.

I haven't really had a chance to run a mission with the infested in a while. Mainly due to which frames I'm looking to possess again, and also because they only inhabit Jupiter and Eris in large numbers. When I went back and played another mission with them, I was surprised to find one small detail made everything more frustrating that I care to admit.

[since when have runners been able to knock a player flat on the ground? And why is this effect chain-able?!?

I can understand this being in effect if the runner were extremely squishy, but they aren't. Not anymore so than any other enemies.

Please, this needs to be changed. It's not a fair challenge. Yes it's difficult, no it's not fun.

Before anyone assumes I'm just another idiot that "can't play this game" or "isn't trying hard enough." I am not the best at this game, and that honestly shouldn't matter. No game has become widely successful because it only caters to the most "hardcore" and if they do it's in late-game or end-game content. A simple enemy that is spawned everywhere should not be something only the most seasoned veterans of this game can actually defeat. That is poorly balanced at best.

There are times when I wish this game was more challenging, but I should never think "man, that normal, low-level enemy is hard/annoying." That isn't a challenge, it's bad design. I'm not saying the designer isn't skilled, I'm saying the idea doesn't work.

 

Like I said, I'm not saying the mechanic itself is flawed. The execution of the mechanic is simply ridiculous.

• If I'm already on the ground, then why can they knock me around more? Shouldn't I get a slight resistance, or immunity to the same effect I'm still technically under?
• While I appreciate that the enemy is weaker than most infested, they should be weaker than they are currently because of how powerful their effect is and how many spawn at once.
• If they aren't going to be weaker, don't spawn 20 at a time and send them at once. That is simply unreasonable and it's a challenge so much as a test of patience. Yes it's possible to kill all of them, but only if you are over leveled for the area with a frame that has good CC. Vaubaun without power damage is not that frame.

Again, to beat this point into the ground. I don't hate the mechanic, but I am frustrated that it is handled so poorly. Knockdown, stagger, and similar effects are not bad on their own. They do become broken/annoying/unplayable when you punish a player for suffering an effect with another enemy that has the same power. That is simply poor and lazy design.

 

Some possible "fixes." I won't pretend I know for a fact they would work, or are even doable, but I feel they are better than what is currently in place.

 

Warframe evolves into... knockdown, knockdown, knockdown, knockdown, knockdown... REVIVE - FORFEIT? ^^

 

I have at least one person agreeing with me.

 

What I brought up doesn't make the game harder, not in anyway that actually requires skill. Please, read the post knowing that I am frustrated with how the effect is used not with the effect itself.

 

 

Exactly. That isn't fun, or a challenge. It's "hard" but not in anyway that requires skill from the player.

Again, I went back and explained my point again. Edited July 10, 2013 by Aizeol

[Feldgrep]

since recent hotfix. if they blowup while your staggered, you fall down. just melt them b4 they get close=win

[WhisperByte]

Runners are able to knock you on the ground since 8.3.1. But only if you are in the air at the moment of explosion.

[Kielix7]

...Because it's in your best interest to have an infested enemy that shakes up the game and forces you to pick priority targets instead of standing in your snow globe and holding down the Mouse 1 button.

 

Admittedly, the Infested are already a bland sort of enemy. There's not much tactic in negating everything they have by clamping on the side of a wall or on top of a box or other raised surface, but you want to get rid of the only thing that makes them interesting?

I wouldn't be surprised if you came back and complained we should take out the Leaper knockback and Charger stagger effect as well.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Kielix7

[Patrusfarr]

How do I down vote this? The game needs to be harder and by a lot.

[Aizeol]

Like I said, I'm not saying the mechanic itself is flawed. The execution of the mechanic is simply ridiculous.

• If I'm already on the ground, then why can they knock me around more? Shouldn't I get a slight resistance, or immunity to the same effect I'm still technically under?
• While I appreciate that the enemy is weaker than most infested, they should be weaker than they are currently because of how powerful their effect is and how many spawn at once.
• If they aren't going to be weaker, don't spawn 20 at a time and send them at once. That is simply unreasonable and it's a challenge so much as a test of patience. Yes it's possible to kill all of them, but only if you are over leveled for the area with a frame that has good CC. Vaubaun without power damage is not that frame.

Again, to beat this point into the ground. I don't hate the mechanic, but I am frustrated that it is handled so poorly. Knockdown, stagger, and similar effects are not bad on their own. They do become broken/annoying/unplayable when you punish a player for suffering an effect with another enemy that has the same power. That is simply poor and lazy design.

[eStecko]

Warframe evolves into... knockdown, knockdown, knockdown, knockdown, knockdown... REVIVE - FORFEIT? ^^

[Aizeol]

How do I down vote this? The game needs to be harder and by a lot.

What I brought up doesn't make the game harder, not in anyway that actually requires skill. Please, read the post knowing that I am frustrated with how the effect is used not with the effect itself.

[Aizeol]

Warframe evolves into... knockdown, knockdown, knockdown, knockdown, knockdown... REVIVE - FORFEIT? ^^

Exactly. That isn't fun, or a challenge. It's "hard" but not in anyway that requires skill from the player.

[Kielix7]

What I brought up doesn't make the game harder, not in anyway that actually requires skill. Please, read the post knowing that I am frustrated with how the effect is used not with the effect itself.

 

Then why in your first post did you clearly state

 

"Since when have runners been able to knock a player flat on the ground?"

 

That pretty much sums up why everyone (including me) is looking at you like you are complaining for no good reason.

 

As for the effect being chain-able, yes, it is annoying when you get knocked back 7 times in a row without being able to get your feet on the ground. If the window for getting knocked down right after being knocked down was reduced, it might alleviate some of the pain.

 

Until then, it's a game mechanic, learn to maneuver.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Kielix7

[Aizeol]

@Kielix7

Yes, I am about to rant

slightly, and no I do not have a solution ready in mind. That being said, let's get on with the cause of my frustration.

Please, this needs to be changed. It's not a fair challenge. Yes it's difficult, no it's not fun.

 

I've already mentioned that I was frustrated. Does that mean that everyone gets to ignore me when I talk about why I'm frustrated if it is a reasonable position?

 

Like I said, I'm not saying the mechanic itself is flawed. The execution of the mechanic is simply ridiculous.

• If I'm already on the ground, then why can they knock me around more? Shouldn't I get a slight resistance, or immunity to the same effect I'm still technically under?
• While I appreciate that the enemy is weaker than most infested, they should be weaker than they are currently because of how powerful their effect is and how many spawn at once.
• If they aren't going to be weaker, don't spawn 20 at a time and send them at once. That is simply unreasonable and it's a challenge so much as a test of patience. Yes it's possible to kill all of them, but only if you are over leveled for the area with a frame that has good CC. Vaubaun without power damage is not that frame.

Again, to beat this point into the ground. I don't hate the mechanic, but I am frustrated that it is handled so poorly. Knockdown, stagger, and similar effects are not bad on their own. They do become broken/annoying/unplayable when you punish a player for suffering an effect with another enemy that has the same power. That is simply poor and lazy design.

 

Not many saw this, but I went more in-depth on the reasons I don't like the concept and some suggestions for "tweaking/fixing" it to be less frustrating. 

Warframe evolves into... knockdown, knockdown, knockdown, knockdown, knockdown... REVIVE - FORFEIT? ^^

 

I have at least one person agreeing with me.

 

What I brought up doesn't make the game harder, not in anyway that actually requires skill. Please, read the post knowing that I am frustrated with how the effect is used not with the effect itself.

 

 

Exactly. That isn't fun, or a challenge. It's "hard" but not in anyway that requires skill from the player.

Again, I went back and explained my point again.

[HoopleDoople]

Trinity troll says lrn2link. Runners are thus the easiest enemies in the game as they actually kill themselves for you :P

[Aizeol]

Trinity troll says lrn2link. Runners are thus the easiest enemies in the game as they actually kill themselves for you :P

Right, and that's fine. I was running Vaubaun, and I don't have a single Focus mod. I understand your point, and I'm glad you've shown an exploit, but honestly that doesn't help.

So, thank you for trolling, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't.

[Kielix7]

Majority of enemies that you encounter in this game do not have a CC effect. 

 

Grineer Shield Lancers, Heavies, Commanders, Powerfists, Scorpions, and Rollers, for example, are 6/14 Grineer enemies that actually CC you in any way, shape or form. 

 

Corpus only have Shockwave and Railgun Moas (or regular Moas if you use Radial Disarm, never seen one kick me without being disarmed), out of 4 different crewmen, 4 Moa's and 3 Ospreys, a total of 2/11 enemies,

 

Infested Chargers, Runners, Leapers, Crawlers, and all 3 Ancients all have attacks that CC you. That is literally every single Infested enemy in the game.

 

The point is, what makes the Infested so dangerous, instead of being an idiotic mass of corrupted meat sacks, is the fact that:

 

1) They are physically stronger than the other factions

2) There's a metric f*ck ton of them

3) They aren't your typical zombies, they are fast as hell.

 

If you start messing with any one of those three factors, you start making them less of an overall threat and more of a joke.

 

I admit to agreeing to the fact that Runners should be a bit weaker, because they are prone to exploding. Look at the big exploding things from The Flood in the Halo games. They are generally weaker because they move slow and explode violently. Runners being fast AND exploding without making them more susceptible to dying easier is not necessarily fair. However, they already are a bit weaker than their counterparts.

 

Like I said before, I think there should at least be a time lapse of invulnerability frames before they are able to be staggered / knocked back again.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Kielix7

[Virilitas]

Yeah, its annoying but you can either just be frustrated or learn to handle it.

 

There's a few options...

1) Powers: there's a handful that can save you from this problem, stealth, area knockdowns, etc

2) Powerful Weapons: Yeah, vastly overleveled ones work, but there's also more than a few that can stagger pretty well and multiple targets

3) Tactics: If I'm ever lower level than the infested mission I'm on, I have no problems with retreating from large packs rushing at me. Run away and find something to climb on top of. I'd much rather run back a room or so and take them out from the high ground then just get bum rushed and frustrated when I have to waste a revive.

[Aizeol]

Yeah, its annoying but you can either just be frustrated or learn to handle it.

 

There's a few options...

1) Powers: there's a handful that can save you from this problem, stealth, area knockdowns, etc

2) Powerful Weapons: Yeah, vastly overleveled ones work, but there's also more than a few that can stagger pretty well and multiple targets

3) Tactics: If I'm ever lower level than the infested mission I'm on, I have no problems with retreating from large packs rushing at me. Run away and find something to climb on top of. I'd much rather run back a room or so and take them out from the high ground then just get bum rushed and frustrated when I have to waste a revive.

Honestly, I know all of this. None of the information presented helps, or changes the fact that frustrating elements shouldn't be in a game. Generally, in my experience, elements that cause frustration fall in a range. On one end, they are frustrating because the player isn't skilled enough to deal with them, and on the other end they are frustrating because they are either unfair, or unbalanced based on the expected skill of the player.

This, sadly, falls towards the end where the skill of the player isn't taken into account. If this was an ability that could be given to higher level infested (ie the infested you find in the void, or at least Pluto/Eris) I'd be more willing to accept the change. However, I was on Venus and by that point a new player will be slaughtered when they meet them the first time.

Finally, I find the whole "Learn to play" argument insulting. I know how to play this game, and just because I am not as good as other doesn't make my point any less important. It is extremely upsetting to see that pop up again and again. It doesn't help the developers, and it doesn't help the players.

[xenapan]

Get an ogris or a dethcube or a shade. problem solved. ogris can EASILY take out 20 in two shots if you aim right. cube melts them as they approach and shade gives you time to get back up. ever heard of right tools for the job? maybe you need to learn to use some new tools that do a better job than you and your plastic bag trying to plug a hole. or maybe its your strategy of dealing with them... heres an idea.. run away from them? get on something they cant reach you from? run circles instead of standing there?

 

 

Honestly, I know all of this. None of the information presented helps, or changes the fact that frustrating elements shouldn't be in a game. Generally, in my experience, elements that cause frustration fall in a range. On one end, they are frustrating because the player isn't skilled enough to deal with them, and on the other end they are frustrating because they are either unfair, or unbalanced based on the expected skill of the player.

This, sadly, falls towards the end where the skill of the player isn't taken into account. If this was an ability that could be given to higher level infested (ie the infested you find in the void, or at least Pluto/Eris) I'd be more willing to accept the change. However, I was on Venus and by that point a new player will be slaughtered when they meet them the first time.

Finally, I find the whole "Learn to play" argument insulting. I know how to play this game, and just because I am not as good as other doesn't make my point any less important. It is extremely upsetting to see that pop up again and again. It doesn't help the developers, and it doesn't help the players.

 

so you expect to be able to waltz through any mission unharmed? difficulty is what makes the game fun. if you want a boring game imagine you had a gun with unlimited ammo that fired like a boar, killed every enemy in one hit. sorry but that game isnt fun. on the other hand whats WRONG with a new player being slaughtered on venus when they first meet the infested? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. they are supposed to be hard when you first meet them. theres nothing wrong with you dying a few times learning tactics to kill them.

 

and all of this assumes you dont have a team. maybe you should get ONLINE and play with some randoms.. and watch how they deal with them. (successfully AND unsuccessfully) and LEARN what works what doesn't. worst case scenario play something stupidly overpowered vs infested. get all the weapons that are strong against them. ember is all fire damage and they take loads of extra damage from fire. weapons like dual ethers, hate (as an eventual goal), kunai (and eventually despair) all have BONUS damage vs infested small units (as in 3x off the bat)

 

so just to summarize

a) RIGHT TOOLS FOR THE RIGHT JOB.

b) THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH A LITTLE DIFFICULTY

c) Learn some tactics. or at the VERY VERY VERY least, pick a loadout thats designed to deal with them.

 

FYI infested is my preferred enemy race.  you can just gun them down as they run at you. every other race shoots back >_<... from cover.

[stacey69]

Yes, I am about to rant slightly, and no I do not have a solution ready in mind. That being said, let's get on with the cause of my frustration.

I haven't really had a chance to run a mission with the infested in a while. Mainly due to which frames I'm looking to possess again, and also because they only inhabit Jupiter and Eris in large numbers. When I went back and played another mission with them, I was surprised to find one small detail made everything more frustrating that I care to admit.

[since when have runners been able to knock a player flat on the ground? And why is this effect chain-able?!?

I can understand this being in effect if the runner were extremely squishy, but they aren't. Not anymore so than any other enemies.

Please, this needs to be changed. It's not a fair challenge. Yes it's difficult, no it's not fun.

Before anyone assumes I'm just another idiot that "can't play this game" or "isn't trying hard enough." I am not the best at this game, and that honestly shouldn't matter. No game has become widely successful because it only caters to the most "hardcore" and if they do it's in late-game or end-game content. A simple enemy that is spawned everywhere should not be something only the most seasoned veterans of this game can actually defeat. That is poorly balanced at best.

There are times when I wish this game was more challenging, but I should never think "man, that normal, low-level enemy is hard/annoying." That isn't a challenge, it's bad design. I'm not saying the designer isn't skilled, I'm saying the idea doesn't work.

 

 

Some possible "fixes." I won't pretend I know for a fact they would work, or are even doable, but I feel they are better than what is currently in place.

 

 

I have at least one person agreeing with me.

 

 

 

Again, I went back and explained my point again.

Hi mate I and others put videos on Youtube playing against Infested. They can be a pain but they are a lot of fun to play against. Search my name or warframe infested and watch a few videos. It will help you enjoy playing against them rather than changing them which would impact on my gameplay and others who enjoy playing against them.

 

People who just enjoy each faction are silent voices and don't post often due to the hate they get. Me, I don't give a F*** and will take on any C*** who says im an elitest or a big head:)

 

Hope you enjoy playing against The Infested as much as I do soon.

[Aizeol]

@xenapan

Please read the whole post. I know you might be frustrated or defensive, but honestly I doubt you are a bad person. If you read the whole post and respond to it rationally I'll know I'm dealing with someone that is worth listening to and I honestly believe you are that kind of person.

Get an ogris or a dethcube or a shade. problem solved.

Wrong. Simply put, none of these magically fix the issue.

 

 

 

so you expect to be able to waltz through any mission unharmed?

No, did I say that?

difficulty is what makes the game fun.

You are absolutely right, but what I'm talking about isn't difficulty. It is a false challenge and it takes control away from the player. It's the wrong kind of frustrating that even if I learn how to combat it, there is still a chance of it knocking me down for upwards of 15-30 seconds and I can't do a damn thing about it until they are done. That isn't "difficulty" it's BS.

if you want a boring game..."blah, blah" [speech about how "casual" player (i.e. people who aren't as good as me) need to stop *@##&#036;ing and just get better]

Listen, I know that fire damage does more damage against infested. I've been playing since January just like you. I know this game. I don't follow the meta because it's &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; and I like having fun. I was running with a strun (that I'm trying to level and since this game isn't my whole life it takes a while) with fire damage and other damage mods. I know how to deal with infested. You are insulting me, and others who have legitimate complaints and it's uncalled for.

so just to summarize

a) RIGHT TOOLS FOR THE RIGHT JOB.

b) THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH A LITTLE DIFFICULTY

c) Learn some tactics. or at the VERY VERY VERY least, pick a loadout thats designed to deal with them.

 

FYI infested is my preferred enemy race.  you can just gun them down as they run at you. every other race shoots back >_<... from cover.

Again, you are insulting me. I don't appreciate it and it doesn't make you look better as a player or as a person. Don't belittle me, and don't tell me how to play.

My issue with the infested runners is simply that once they hit me I can't do anything. That is BS and there is nothing in any of your posts that has given a valid reason or rebuttal. If anything, you are making me hate this game because when I feel I have found a legitmate problem I am being told to "play better." Who the hell are you to tell me that I'm "not good enough" and "should quit my *@##&#036;ing"?

[xenapan]

@xenapan

You are absolutely right, but what I'm talking about isn't difficulty. It is a false challenge and it takes control away from the player. It's the wrong kind of frustrating that even if I learn how to combat it, there is still a chance of it knocking me down for upwards of 15-30 seconds and I can't do a damn thing about it until they are done. That isn't "difficulty" it's BS.

Listen, I know that fire damage does more damage against infested. I've been playing since January just like you. I know this game. I don't follow the meta because it's &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; and I like having fun. I was running with a strun (that I'm trying to level and since this game isn't my whole life it takes a while) with fire damage and other damage mods. I know how to deal with infested. You are insulting me, and others who have legitimate complaints and it's uncalled for.

Again, you are insulting me. I don't appreciate it and it doesn't make you look better as a player or as a person. Don't belittle me, and don't tell me how to play.

My issue with the infested runners is simply that once they hit me I can't do anything. That is BS and there is nothing in any of your posts that has given a valid reason or rebuttal. If anything, you are making me hate this game because when I feel I have found a legitmate problem I am being told to "play better." Who the hell are you to tell me that I'm "not good enough" and "should quit my *@##$ing"?

So basically you refuse to "follow the meta" so why don't you refuse to use different weapons from the starters? why dont you refuse to use mods?

 

Its NOT false challenge. to throw you on your back they have to actually CLOSE IN ON YOU. that requires you to

a) not run away (you can walk away fast enough on any frame other than rhino and frost to get out of the explosion radius). that means you are just STANDING there. THAT is your problem. or is strafing too meta for you too?

b) if they are catching you unaware then its an awareness issue. get enemy radar and watch those approaching red dots. THEN MOVE AWAY FROM THEM.

 

I'm not insulting you. I'm insulting your logic I read the whole post but you REFUSE to use tools at your disposal to deal with the problem. you insist on refusing to follow the "meta" and you refuse to adapt to the enemy you face. Thats sheer stupidity.

 

There are plenty of ways of killing runners, avoiding them, strafing them, but you refuse to do any of it then complain. Thats like insisting on meleeing toxic ancients. Your "arguments" are null and void till you actually attempt to address the issue. The fact they "hit you and you cant do anything" is total bull.

you either

a) didnt kill enough of them to stop them from chaining you

b) didnt kill enough of their friends to stop them from killing you before the chain ends.

c) refuse to use mods, refuse to run, refuse to use weapons that are actually GOOD at killing them and expect to live

 

you dont even need to necessarily be a bad player. given all the constraints you put on yourself, i doubt any good player could fight infested just standing there without proper mods or weapons. I'm not saying you aren't good enough a player. I'm not saying you need to play better. I'm saying you need to stop artificially handicapping yourself and expect the same killing speed/ability as everyone else. So yes. quit your #!^%#%!ing. If thats the way you choose to play those are the consequences. Stop complaining you cant move forward when you refuse to press anything other than the fire key.

Edited July 11, 2013 by xenapan

[azmyth1]

It might be as simple as adding a 1 or 2 second "immunity to knockdown" effect immediately after you stand up.  The challenge to infested is not letting yourself get surrounded in the first place.  Since they don't have any ranged attacks (should be added IMO, at least to Ancients or a new enemy type), they have to be good in melee to be at all challenging.

[Aizeol]

It might be as simple as adding a 1 or 2 second "immunity to knockdown" effect immediately after you stand up.  The challenge to infested is not letting yourself get surrounded in the first place.  Since they don't have any ranged attacks (should be added IMO, at least to Ancients or a new enemy type), they have to be good in melee to be at all challenging.

Exactly, something small like a window of immunity would be great.

[dis0rganized]

Warframe evolves into... knockdown, knockdown, knockdown, knockdown, knockdown... REVIVE - FORFEIT? ^^

 

This is too true, I dislike what they did to them in this new update. I got knocked down that many times, died...and had to revive right in the middle of them all again....all to find myself dying once again from not being able to run away or use any special in time. Luckily my friend was in a Skype call so I didn't have to use ANOTHER revive.

 

Note: I had to be close to them today because of my primary and secondary not working glitch...but this is still a problem and should be changed. Maybe with that immunity for a couple seconds and make them harder in a different way.

[Kielix7]

Have any of you ever played Dark Souls?

It's one of the hardest games in modern video gaming history, punishing you for the slightest mistake, and even in THAT game, you get invincibility frames on knockdown. 

It might be as simple as adding a 1 or 2 second "immunity to knockdown" effect immediately after you stand up.  The challenge to infested is not letting yourself get surrounded in the first place.  Since they don't have any ranged attacks (should be added IMO, at least to Ancients or a new enemy type), they have to be good in melee to be at all challenging.

 

 

He gets it. +1

[Aizeol]

Have any of you ever played Dark Souls?

It's one of the hardest games in modern video gaming history, punishing you for the slightest mistake, and even in THAT game, you get invincibility frames on knockdown.

Exactly! I love Demon's Souls and I played maybe half of Dark Souls. They are great examples of real challenges that require actual skill from the player, but they aren't unfair and any mistake made is the player's fault.