Let's Talk All About Difficulty

[Vincer]

Its kinda obvious it needs tweaking; Its everywhere around the foruns, chat and so on... so lets put all our toughts in one topic, make one huge main topic about it so its easier for moderators/devs to check all sides from the vocal comunity.

 

We needed a ramp in difficulty but not like that. Im having some good fun but ive seen new players suffering everywhere, and still the game suffers from the fake difficulty (making enemies hp dumps don't make they fun nor really harder, just a make-a-killing build thing). I love the nightmare idea but it sill needs some more variables to add up with the mission level: as is nightmare is awesome for low-level nightmare... further missions needs more things like 'less resources' and most of all 'defend extraction point until extraction comes' instead of enemies with more and more hp.

 

Ive seen interesting suggestions everywhere, instead of pasting/rewriting then here i would rather enjoy seeing you guys write about it in further detail here.
What needs tweaking? What you would find a more daring and fun to play on harder levels?

[Setill]

I agree! But... Why make a new post then instead of posting on an existing one O_o?

[Deadmice]

If anything the difficulty scaling in the first couple areas could be toned back, other than that im enjoying myself

[ethics]

Only people i see struggling are players with lvl 0 gear hoping to sponge off of my efforts in various defense missions. Luckily they die and hopefully learn their lesson.

[Vincer]

So in wich one do i post? One about captain vor, or about nightmare? Oh i know, i will start a discussion in that one someone made an awesome suggestion for planet progression, that one that started with another subject... i just have to find it again.

 

I wanted to discuss dificulty on all its sides, instead of dodging being 'off-topic' and posting in a dozen ones at the same time about somewhate related subjects; damn, its hard even to navigate in all of them(i open multiple tabs, the topics overlap to the point i get lost), so a single big one seemed interesting. If im wrong so be it, i just think i won't reply as must i would, would take too long. Im about to close the browser and get back playing by the way.

ethics: sure, but its all about first impressions. If i were one of those lvl0 geared ones today i would get a different overall impression then the one ive got when i started(update 8 here). Every player that don't try harder and moves away is one less potential customer.

Less customers, less money, less money... i don't want warframe to die in years, i want it to thrive.

 

In update 8 ive felt a really nice curve for starters, the progress felt right, the bosses and so on; Only later(mid-end) the game was lacking everywhere. Now i see no smooth curve or progression.

 

So please take that "give me rep/post" away

 

Rep? I didn't even know this forum had reputation, i don't know nor do i care if it have ranks, rep, kudos or whatever. All i care is that number below my posts about warning keeps at 0. Ive just started in this forum because i really enjoy the game and want to see it improve, ive im in other foruns where i really socialize and care about my 'reputation', but even in those its never about some number thing or anything like that. Neither post count, im a guy of few huge posts generaly.

[KaoKill123]

let's say remove U9 mob and replace it with U8

the map UI need improvement

HUD nid upgrade

give option on playing nightmare mode or not.

 

the end.

[DeatH-ReapeR]

let's say remove U9 mob and replace it with U8

the map UI need improvement

HUD nid upgrade

give option on playing nightmare mode or not.

 

the end.

Nightmare mode I believe if anything should stay where it is, since you can see if the map got it before playing it Again.

 

U9 mob is good as it is, but according to Vincer it sucks low end but as I stated a few of my friends loved it.

And I did the full Mercury as 0 ranked, take ALL mods and skills away and your there.

 

So it is not impossible just takes longer than before.

[Winterbraid]

The only real "difficulty" in Warframe is grinding.

 

A Grineer Lancer level 60 and a Grineer Lancer level 1 are still one and the same aim-botting, infinite-ammo, telescopic-vision, cover-hugging Grineer Lancer. The only difference is in his health and DPS.

 

A boss is only difficult the first time you beat him. After that, beating him 10 times or 100 times (because you want the frame) doesn't make him more difficult, it only makes him easier.

 

The "skill" is determined by the amount of ranks you have in Serration and Redirection. As well as the number of other rare/uncommon mods you have which all ultimately boil down to giving you more effective HP and DPS.

 

I don't mind this state of the game, mind you. In fact, I like grind games and that's why I stayed in Warframe. I just laugh at all the players who tell newbies to "get skill lololo" when they themselves farmed all of their "skill" (a.k.a. gear) back when it was easier.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Winterbraid

[Vincer]

Im all with Winterbread on this one, and while some overall changes to gameplay/balance could be good i know warframe won't become a 'game of pure skill' ever, neither i want that. But it can improve "skill demand" on other ways...

 

People generally use the word 'skill' in a bad, really bad way; Because of dumb 'gamers' who praise their 'skills' on hard games, i almost always see it adressed to PUNISHING GAMEPLAY; The 'skill' being not sucking in a game where little mistakes make all the difference.

 

Thats not skill nor make a 'hard game'; Its only one way to do that, and by far not the best one.

 

Theres some skill involved coupled with the very nature of the learning curve; Like Death-Riper said i did full mercury all unranked in a breeze (i always do that with a new warframe and ive bought nova right away) but this is me today, not me when i started.

Ive noticed deep changes in my playstyle from when i started to now. My first 30 ranks with my starting excalibur ive made him a freaking tank all the way with vitality and redirection(lots of upgrades on those) while now i don't increase any health/shields with him. I know the mobs, i know what to expect, i know how to dodge and keep tabs on everything and put each of his skills to good use: that makes a lot of difference, but since we experience this change in a gradual form we don't notice it that well.

 

It took me longer to clean mercury my first time around then now with U9 despite the 'difficulty increase'; So i can only guess how different new players will experience it. We should also remenber that people have different experiences regarding gaming, i played too many unreal to the point of madenning faster sprint with insta-gib 'mutator', so full-fov warframe all sprinting felt like home for me from the get go. Someone more casual or more used to mmorpgs then action games...?

 

ADAPT.

Thats the main thing theres missing for difficulty increase. Nightmare goes some steps that way but how we must adapt for each 'condition' is still 'too close from home' to change anything.

Less damage/health scaling overall would help a lot with more true difficulty and unexpected things trowed around on later levels, but thats not the problem per si. Its a game with levels and better gear after all, it is expected.

 

BUT it shouldn't be required, not by that extent. Players should be able to level less damage/health and still be useful/survive with skill; The problem isn't existing all the ways for people with any skill to make a killing build, its that any oportunity for really challenge and skill is trow ou of the window; I must increase my armor pierce and this and that with that much ridiculous health going around,

[GrilledSalmonWithLemon]

Only people i see struggling are players with lvl 0 gear hoping to sponge off of my efforts in various defense missions. Luckily they die and hopefully learn their lesson.

Oh, well aren't you just he savior of humanity. Please, remove your head from your &#! before you post a comment.

[SolitaireX]

The beginning levels are quite hard, I used my reset to experience it and it is quite challenging but none the less it is fun.
However, I do recommend always going with a party though but that not that common as there aren't as many upstarts currently.

[ethics: I think you should reset and see what the complaints about, haha.]

[Raidaman]

The aspect of "skill" pertaining to this game mostly incorporates the idea that you can avoid dying to common enemy's abilities, have acceptable clear times, and understand how to execute your own maneuvers with minimal failure rate. So for example, if you run up to a Shield Lancer and he knocks you down, you're either not good or you made a mistake. The mistake aspect being you didn't see the enemy, you misjudged his distance, forgot to roll, executed the roll incorrectly, didn't melee charge, mistimed your jump for a melee jump attack for knockdown, not enough energy to do -blank-, and so on. These mistakes can be considered skill-related, because if you were aware of the situation and knew what to do before the situation approached you, you had the opportunity to make a decision that would be favorable to your progress in the level. Being knocked down has a negative influence on your skill level in Warframe, and on your progress (if that's not obvious).

 

Now this may all seem very basic, but this isn't Street Fighter Third Strike technical. You can't parry knockdown abilities or EX Divekick counter knockdown, you can only get out of the way or prevent them from activating. This simple concept of recognizing what to do and how to be the most efficient is the basis of skill, regardless if that skill incorporates knowledge. If you simply know what to do but cannot execute the key-presses to perform the actions, you are still skillful in the game. Pressing buttons is the easy part when the execution "level" is not very high. Contra comes to mind for low-tier execution. Or Adventures of Link/Link to the Past. Warframe consists of very basic execution, but can be technical enough to rival the original Super Smash Bros. for the N64. Just not that of Melee (in the realm of PC gaming, it's not Starcraft difficulty).

 

If that makes enough sense, being that anyone can play this game decently, then we can get to the aspect of Enemy Health. I assume enemy HP is really high to encourage players to use Reactors, Catalysts, and Forma to amass powerful Warframe setups, weapon customization, and ridiculous mod levels. In other words, they get money from people buying upgrades. It could not be more simple than that. If you want a difficult, current game of Warframe, use minimal equipment setups and play with less people in your squad. Or bang your head against the wall for hours at a time per day. Break some fingers. Go nuts.

 

The way most games raise the difficulty of enemies or new areas is by throwing more enemies at the player, or adding inescapable attacks that do massive damage to the player intermittently. What we have seen so far in Update 9 outside of Nightmare mode and including the Void consists of Traps. Such as Captain Vor with Tesla grenades and Raptor with those land mines that don't expire over time, both designed for zoning purposes despite not giving Vor or Raptor any real positioning advantage. They also have intermittent shielding that cannot be interrupted or dwindled during regeneration. Big damage abilities that home-in on the player.

 

This all seems like standard fare in the world of games. Beyond just giving every boss Disruptor capability (shield and energy = 0 on hit), these are fair additions to raising the difficulty of the game. Could they do more? Certainly. But lets not pretend their efforts were poor. They did well and all bugs aside, they made some great additions to Warframe in its entirety.

 

Perhaps every boss needs a "Sentinel" to make up for their complete lack of actions from time to time. Perhaps enemies need more actions to perform to make each encounter more interesting, such as giving basic Grineer Lancers/Troopers charge attacks akin to Shield Lancers rushing to players to knock them down. Perhaps MOAs should stop running up to players and doing nothing. There's a number of things they could do, but that's an entirely different topic.

 

The game is difficult enough, but certainly the "end game" could use some work when everything is solved by "look and shoot." It's clear that they are in fact working on this aspect and just released their model of distribution for such (nightmare mode), so it's a bit premature to complain about. Unless you simply dislike the idea of restrictions such as "melee only" mode for substituting difficulty. Then I completely agree, that's not great. But I also don't believe that's their intention, or rather their complete answer.

[VScipii26]

Nightmare Mode is fun and refreshing.

Constantly introducing enemies that are simply numerically stronger and nothing else is not.

The AI needs a buff, not the numbers.

[KhanCipher]

The problem with adding difficulty is how you add it. Adding difficulty is ok, as long as you don't go out of your way to make it punishing (which that tends to be the route most devs take when it comes to adding difficulty in co-op games), and make sure that your players end up saying they could've done something better if they die, yes i'm looking at you Grenier Commander, or the ever so popular "2+ heavy gunners just happen to be waiting for you at the bottom of an elevator".

 

since i'm going to end up repeating quite a bit of stuff said in a certain video made by a certain group of people that regularly talk about video games... here's the video http://youtu.be/ea6UuRTjkKs

 

 

 

 

And yes the 2+ heavy gunner waiting at the bottom of the elevator did happen to me once... but i'm pretty sure it happened pre U8 so it might not be possible to happen again. (example pic blue dot is me, red dots are the heavy gunners, and the green dots are the medium grenier.)

[SolitaireX]

They need to update these level recommendation for the systems, cause Venus is kicking my butt.

You need to be way higher level (I'm guessing weapon rank, right?) than 5 to be able to stand against them. 

 

Cause your MK1-Braton does pea shooter damage at low velocity, haha.

 

I'm kinda torn between it being a challenge and it being mind boggling hard. Like I have to really try to survive, no idea how others would fair.

(You guys should reset and join the fun <- sarcasm)

[BadAimbot]

I feel like the difficulty problems stem from improper scaling of Mods. Mods are our main progression in this game, but we progress too fast. Once we get a Serration, we go from 0% increase in damage to 15%, and we can quickly reach 45%, or even higher. Not only that, it also boosts the effects of the elemental damage mods we have equipped, leading to a huge spike in power. You might think 45% damage is no big deal, but think about how it affects the enemies you face. 45% more damage per shot means that enemies that took some time to kill before are now mowed down with ease, meaning you need to advance to harder enemies. But then you get Multishot, and the whole thing happens again. Each time you obtain a new mod, your power will increase to the point where the older content is just too easy and you need harder enemies.

 

Now you might just think of this as fine, that's how the game works, but with how drastic the power jumps are, every new mod that boosts our power can necessitate new enemy difficulty. Now only that, but it means that if you don't have the mod, you're stuck in earlier content and are at the mercy of the RNG. But when you do get that mod, you have enough junk mods to upgrade it several times and then you become significantly more powerful. I think that difficulty would be a lot smoother if instead of focusing on obtaining mods for our power, we should be able to obtain mods easier, but have them take longer to upgrade. In trade, harder content should give higher level fusion cores. This way the harder the content, the easier you can level up your mods and become stronger.

[askaninja]

IMHO they should have never changed the difficulty for existing content.. it was appropriate. They should have just made new harder content. Some of the harder existing content makes sniper / dread useless.

 

There is something really wrong when I do 4 frost avalanches in a row (4000 damage) and there are enemies that live through it.

Edited July 15, 2013 by askaninja

[Vincer]

Im with Raidaman, its the endgame the main problem, have always been and they've chosen the worst path to deal with it on U9. There's nothing wrong with scaling by itself, but only that and that way don't work.

 

But this is only consequence, the roots should be the focus... BadAim Bot nailed the biggest one. Ive noticed the spikes but didn't knew how serration worked with elemental damage (so that's why ive suffered on endgame?). This not only makes the whole game evolution(its development) a race against mods/players, it create bad requirements; 'You MUST have this or build like that to advance'. This is trowing out the window one of the most awesome features of the game that is customization.

 

But is not the only root; Another one is how the whole design goes against true co-op, all that is left is 'more damage, more health' stuff and crowd control because dificulty=more enemies; So 'fixing' the rushing(level and gameplay design leads to that) and switching the need for certains mods for the need to work as a group are the only ways, as see it, to truly overcome the issue.

 

and... GUYS LISTEN: AI WON'T GET BETTER

 

It may become less worse but don't raise your expectations seriously. Its a multiplayer game without oficial servers with dozens of npcs on screen. Even if it had awesome dedicated servers, a robust AI would cripple the bandwith; Its a lot more stress not only on your machine, all these calculations and results are more things to send, receive and sincronize among all players(clients).

 

Heck, even singleplayer games struggle with AI and are caped by hardware and software limitations. The ones with best AIs use a bunch of sneaky scripting that doesn't feel like such but isn't true AI and would never work with random maps/missions.

 

But... theres still some tricks DE could try to do. Instead of more complex and capable AI for all enemy units could be multiplied with copy-cats with same names and stats but one behaviour differently; So players will see then all as the same type of enemy, but the tactics those might use would change with the RNG on the spawn. Its far from the best and would still bring some enemies doing weird things here and there but that's the best we might get. There are other tactics to use as well... DE only needs to roll those up on their priorities, hope we being so vocal about it help change things a little.

On a side note: am i the only one who would rather get much, much less enemies with far more quality? I don't mean to dich these missions and mobs, but spice things up with missions with much, much less crowds and some wise combinations of heavier-smartier baddies.
If i were to design it this would be the norm for missions X above your level(overall, frame+guns+sentinels) or higher, except of course infestation. Infestation should be the huge mobs fest, not all of the factions.

Crowd control habilities wouldn't loose much, they would only fit the same niche as any other skill(instead of being the most sought after/useful, AoE and such); It would actually 'fix' some of the UP warframes that lack those things and give them time/space to better user their skills; Heck, even sniping would get some love.

 

So big mobs would be the main way to ramp difficulty, still, but only on close-to-your level and lower missions. The exceptions would be infestation and some speficif highest level planets that coul use more custom spawns to have it all at once and those, only those, require min-maxing every freaking thing out to clear.

[DeatH-ReapeR]

^
Disagree basicly everything, and no more mob fests? are you @(*()&#036; kidding me -.-

 

More mobs = the better

More mobs = the more to shoot at

More mobs = just fun
 

[azmyth1]

Basically we've got about half the people saying too hard and half saying too easy.  I think they're doing a good job catering to both sides.  U9 is great for high level players.  I've had trouble completing high level maps even with a good team - but that's how it should be.

 

Maybe next they can add an "easy mode" with all knock downs become staggers and no hard enemies.  Also there could be slower scaling up at the lower difficulty.  I haven't played much at lower levels since the update, but I think so long as there is one planet for each 5 level increment, it should be fine for anyone to play.

 

I was in the "it could be harder" camp in U8, but I think with the addition of nightmare mode, the difficulty is fine for someone like me.  I realize not everyone is as good at the game as I am and they might like a more casual experience.  There's nothing wrong with effortlessly slaughtering waves of greneer lancers - sometimes you just want to relax and have fun.  I think by the time the full game is ready there will be room enough for both types of players.

[Snixpix]

I guess I'm more of a casual gamer than I thought? This new "lets make everything more difficult thing" is getting on my nerves. I couldn't even finish a mission in ceres cause I just kept getting surrounded and raped by that new awesome idea of giving the grineer a more accurate weapon along with more damage. I couldn't even level my newly forma'd Torid cause it takes more than a clip to kill one lancer, a level 18 Torid should not suck that bad. Anyways, I hope it is not just me that feels slighted with the new degree of difficulty. I guess I will just have to stick to the lower level worlds I have already cleared. Hopefully I'm not penalized too badly in the case of loot, I'd hate to have spent so much time and money on a game just to be defeated by an AI and have to find somewhere else I can game. 

[Vincer]

Im having it easy, before i could take my unpotatoed excalibur on high level journeys, ive always gone towards the highest difficulty i could survive; Now i do the same, only the levels im entering are lower.

BIGGEST problem in my case is that guns that i used and had fun with beforehand aren't living up to current game. Alright to demand a higher tier gun on higher tier enemies, but all guns had better performance o mid-high levels then now. Ive changed builds around to no avail... i mean, nothing on my current loadout deserves to be my secondary then my all leveled kunais, its starting to get boring.

 

I feel punished to change few things for some variety, even worse with wimpier frames that can't get much damage.

[Winterbraid]

I guess I'm more of a casual gamer than I thought? This new "lets make everything more difficult thing" is getting on my nerves. I couldn't even finish a mission in ceres cause I just kept getting surrounded and raped by that new awesome idea of giving the grineer a more accurate weapon along with more damage. I couldn't even level my newly forma'd Torid cause it takes more than a clip to kill one lancer, a level 18 Torid should not suck that bad. Anyways, I hope it is not just me that feels slighted with the new degree of difficulty. I guess I will just have to stick to the lower level worlds I have already cleared. Hopefully I'm not penalized too badly in the case of loot, I'd hate to have spent so much time and money on a game just to be defeated by an AI and have to find somewhere else I can game. 

 

Ceres generally seems to be one of the biggest offenders in this update because it has seen one of the most drastic boosts to difficulty (while not even having been overly trivial beforehand) while being home to one of the most wanted frames.

[Snixpix]

Ceres generally seems to be one of the biggest offenders in this update because it has seen one of the most drastic boosts to difficulty (while not even having been overly trivial beforehand) while being home to one of the most wanted frames.

That's good to know, but I'm still getting kicked around on other planets too. And it turns out my Torid was level 8, not 18. But just to make it through several of the levels I had to resort to using my Rhino that I modded for durability, and occasionally backing up and going crazy with Despair to fight off a mob of enemies that my Torid couldn't quite kill fast enough. I guess I'll just have to get used to it, now I just wish I could find a party of people that don't just rush through a level or that I have a decent connection to.

[Onbashira]

I feel like the difficulty problems stem from improper scaling of Mods. Mods are our main progression in this game, but we progress too fast. Once we get a Serration, we go from 0% increase in damage to 15%, and we can quickly reach 45%, or even higher. Not only that, it also boosts the effects of the elemental damage mods we have equipped, leading to a huge spike in power. You might think 45% damage is no big deal, but think about how it affects the enemies you face. 45% more damage per shot means that enemies that took some time to kill before are now mowed down with ease, meaning you need to advance to harder enemies. But then you get Multishot, and the whole thing happens again. Each time you obtain a new mod, your power will increase to the point where the older content is just too easy and you need harder enemies.

 

Now you might just think of this as fine, that's how the game works, but with how drastic the power jumps are, every new mod that boosts our power can necessitate new enemy difficulty. Now only that, but it means that if you don't have the mod, you're stuck in earlier content and are at the mercy of the RNG. But when you do get that mod, you have enough junk mods to upgrade it several times and then you become significantly more powerful. I think that difficulty would be a lot smoother if instead of focusing on obtaining mods for our power, we should be able to obtain mods easier, but have them take longer to upgrade. In trade, harder content should give higher level fusion cores. This way the harder the content, the easier you can level up your mods and become stronger.

I agree.  The change in power is so drastic with multishot specifically that it feels insane just how rare it is.  I have formas and nothing to use it on because I don't have a max rank split chamber to sink the energy into.  As for upgrading mods I think earlier levels should require more while later ones need less.  The first rank up requires one extra copy while with some mods the last requires several hundred.  That's absolute insanity.