So...about Them Drop Rates..

[theammostore]

Ran Ruk a few times today. No problems at all. Might run him some more tomorrow. I expect same results. Out of 10 runs, 1 was nano spores. Day before? 4 did not contain a cell.

 

You're unlucky.

[ProfessorMeeseeks]

Plastids, Neurodes and Orokin Cells are broken in drop rates, they rarely if ever drop, over 200 runs, also worth noting, that Phroid hasn't dropped -anything- for me in 60 runs, only a mod and basic resources. Further that with 100+ runs for Ember, still have not gotten the pieces I need....all this stuff needs to be fixed -yesterday- it is a HUGE issue and makes it very hard to keep my friends playing and interested.

Neurodes drop pretty reliably for me on xini. Might wanna try that. Some runs I can go 20 waves and get nothing, but other runs I can go 20 waves and get 5.

[Slaskia]

Thing is, not everyone enjoys running bosses or endless defense missions over and over again to get those rare mats:  we'd like to be able to run other mission types and still get what we need.  Last night, my clanmates and I ran missions on Neptune and Europa, hunting for Control Mods.  We got 2/3 CMs on the first run of the Mobile Defense mission on Neptune, but after that, RNG gave us the finger, despite hopping around mission wise.

 

I don't have problem with RNG in general, but it seems to skew the 'luck' factor to the extremes both ways depending on the player: some players get extremely lucky and always get what they need/want in a few runs, while other's are so unlucky that it can take nearly a hundred runs (or more) to get what they want.  There needs to be a balance here.

[ProfessorMeeseeks]

Thing is, not everyone enjoys running bosses or endless defense missions over and over again to get those rare mats:  we'd like to be able to run other mission types and still get what we need.  Last night, my clanmates and I ran missions on Neptune and Europa, hunting for Control Mods.  We got 2/3 CMs on the first run of the Mobile Defense mission on Neptune, but after that, RNG gave us the finger, despite hopping around mission wise.

 

I don't have problem with RNG in general, but it seems to skew the 'luck' factor to the extremes both ways depending on the player: some players get extremely lucky and always get what they need/want in a few runs, while other's are so unlucky that it can take nearly a hundred runs (or more) to get what they want.  There needs to be a balance here.

Exactly.

[Katsuni]

I don't have problem with RNG in general, but it seems to skew the 'luck' factor to the extremes both ways depending on the player: some players get extremely lucky and always get what they need/want in a few runs, while other's are so unlucky that it can take nearly a hundred runs (or more) to get what they want.  There needs to be a balance here.

So long as you have an RNG at all, this kind of thing will normally happen unless you start manipulating the RNG based on previous drops, such as getting X blueprint drop from an enemy reduces the chance of getting it again.

 

For example, let's say my Trinity set:

30% chance for a blueprint piece to drop... took nearly 20 runs to get 1 piece. Then I had something like 7 systems before I got 1 hat, despite a supposedly 33/33/33 drop chance once it had decided to drop a blueprint.

 

One way to "help" with this, is that there might be a 30% consistent drop rate for the blueprints at all, but once a player gains a particular blueprint, the second roll chance is altered accordingly:

33.3/33.3/33.3

25/37.5/37.5

20/40/40

16.5/41.7/41.7

 

Etc, etc, each time lowering the odds from being 1/3, to instead be 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, etc, and the remainder being a % chance based off of that.

 

If you had 20/40/40, and got one of the others, then it would lower the chances accordingly as well.

 

It's a mess to do, and only works for a single player, but this would allow for the item drop % to remain the same, so that the blueprint item could drop, but which blueprint is acquired may be different for each individual.

 

Alternatively, I honestly prefer the idea of the blueprints being easy to get; 100% drop rate off different locations, no questions asked, but that the specific parts required to build the blueprints be more challenging to acquire; less based on luck and more on skill.

 

Another alternative is for vastly increasing the number of drops in total; maybe you need 100 control modules instead of 1, but they drop very frequently so that you're less likely to go for a long streak with nothing.

 

Yet another alternative (again) is to use a system of guaranteed purchase points, such as fighting X boss is worth X points, and you can redeem those points in for something like 1x neurodes, so that fighting a boss never feels like a waste of time.

 

There's a lot of ways to do it, but generally speaking, it's fine to let players grind for long periods of time, so long as they feel like they're making progress overall. If you limit yourself to a binary collection value, of "got it" or "got nothing", then you're stuck with random chance, which frustrates players rather than making them enjoy the game. If you have to farm something for weeks because the drop % just doesn't agree with you, you're probably going to stop playing the game entirely at some point because it's not fun anymore, just frustrating.

 

A drop of 0 is not equivilent to a drop of 1%. You can actually INCREASE the farming required overall, but have it feel like less of a burden.

 

What's the drop rate on rare materials off bosses? About 1 in 3 or so last I checked? Seems somewhere around there. On average, you would get about 1 control module per 3 runs, for example. If you changed it to a guaranteed drop of 20% of the item, meaning you got exactly 1 upgrade every 5 runs, even though it's "more" grinding, it feels like less, because the player is aware of exactly how much more they need, and it feels like they made progress towards their end goal. If they get 0, they feel like it was a waste of time and they accomplished nothing, even though they likely would have gotten their desired item faster.

 

Player psychology is a weird thing, but it's kind of important to keep it in mind when working with things like probability in particular.

 

A player who feels like the game is wasting their time will eventually stop playing it. A player who can readily track their progress is far more likely to keep playing, even with a slightly longer grind. Strange, but true.

 

I'd still rather that we factor in difficulty and skill challenges as being more valuable than time sinks, but that's personal preference. Time sinks where you perform a simple action over and over repeatedly are NOT difficulty, and never will be, no matter how many people claim otherwise =P   As such, any "grind" required to get items is not "difficulty in acquiring the item". It's simply a waste of time. If the game is enjoyable to play during that time, however, and you'd have fun doing your grind, it's not that big of a deal honestly. Warframe's fun to play, so it can get away with a grinding mechanic, because the actual gameplay is up to the task of maintaining entertainment value while grinding. In a situation such as this, a binary execution of drop rates is actually harmful, because it introduces negative fun factor which directly detracts from the positive fun factor of playing.

 

In short... I'd prefer skill over time sinks, but Warframe's fun enough that it can survive with maintaining time sinks. It can't, however, survive with long periods of zero progress when grinding. Even a tiny, measurable increase in progress is infinitely better than zero increase, despite the lower total grind.

[MrCranky_BR]

Heh... try going through an entire week of Earth defense/Hek and Eris defense/Phorid and not getting not even ONE mothaf***n Neurode...

 

I have eight Forma blueprints and the Sobek sitting in my foundry... and no neurodes...

 

I'm not kidding. This week has been like this for me. I must have a zillion nanospores by now... not one neurode. I used to get at least one every 3-4 runs on Xini... About 200 runs later: Nada. Zero.

 

This is bullcrap enough to fertilize a small country's agricultural production...

 

On the bright side...Earth runs gave me so much ferrite and rubedo, it's not likely I'll need to farm those for quite a while...

Edited July 26, 2013 by MrCranky_BR

[El_Stevo]

sgt nef anyo dropped 3 when I farmed morphics (10runs)

[Taranis49]

Plastids, Neurodes and Orokin Cells are broken in drop rates, they rarely if ever drop, over 200 runs, also worth noting, that Phroid hasn't dropped -anything- for me in 60 runs, only a mod and basic resources. Further that with 100+ runs for Ember, still have not gotten the pieces I need....all this stuff needs to be fixed -yesterday- it is a HUGE issue and makes it very hard to keep my friends playing and interested.

 

Bad things happen to good people, etc. The system's not out to get you. It's actually far worse than that: it's random and uncaring. I say that even while I'm getting everything I need.

 

Seriously, it's a matter of your luck sucking more than anything else; over the past few days, I've been able to get Neurodes running the odd Earth alert. Cells? Had half a dozen drop in a single mission a couple days ago (and I've had a decent stream since), I also haven't had much of a problem getting atleast 75 (if not 150 plastids) per Cassini run.

 

And that's the problem with the RNG system itself. On paper, it sounds good: it wouldn't alienate "casual" players by allowing them to get the same rare items as people who put more time into the game. The problem being, it's entirely arbitrary - a "casual" player can potentially get whatever they want in a few runs while a guy who puts far more time and effort into the game might not get squat after dozens (or more) attempts. In practice, it just ends up with quite a few players (casual or not) having difficulty getting what they need.

[unmog]

I noticed that I and many others cant get neurodes to drop often either. I mean they DO drop, albeit super rarely. Much less than they use to be dropping. It seems like maybe 1 in 20 or so runs. I honestly get more neurodes from random mobs in Xini now it seems.

 

I'm guessing most bosses in the game are suffering from the same problem, which I believe cropped up after they "fixed" the drop rates after that weekend you supposedly had to abuse the heck out of to get anything afterwards. If thats true it makes me sad that DE would do such a thing to punish the entire player base, not just the few that participated in it. In fact I wouldn't be against the idea of a special weekend where they "adjusted the drop rates" of rares again to be higher but I'm guess it won't ever happen intentionally.

 

I also noticed Mars doesn't like giving out morphics much anymore. Used to get 2-5 in a run just breaking containers, now Im lucky to get one in 2-5 runs. Seems Mercury boss gives them out more... which is sad for the new players. Id always suggest people going to mars boss instead and just looking around for containers to give the new people a break but now we're all back to mercury to rush with new players it seems.

 

I just dont understand whats so hard for DE to get about Bosses dropping BOSS LOOT. I dont wanna kill a boss and get salvage. Stop being so dang stingy with the goodies DE! *shakes fist*

Edited July 26, 2013 by unmog