Bullet Sponge Enemies, This Isn't Hard This Is Boring.

[11.11.11]

Thing is, when you're fully modded out, killing "end-game" enemies doesn't take long at all. Let's say they're around level 70-90, because that's what their levels are in T3 missions, the current end-game. A fully modded Braton will take down a heavy in seconds, a Hek in maybe 2-3 shots. Any sniper will kill them with a single shot. The only people who can't do this are the "low level" characters, and let's be fair for a moment, if they aren't maxed out they are supposed to have trouble with the game's end content. That is a very realistic prospect.

 

~ T3 Defence go up to level 100 if I remember rightly. 

 

 

 

What people keep failing to see is that we NEED a combination of good battle mechanics AND health scaling for it to be truly challenging.

 

I'm in agreement with you wholeheartedly here. I just feel the AI is going to be a bigger obstacle for DE to overcome, and thus, should be addressed first. Enemy health scaling can be tweaked at any time, and honestly, I feel they've tweaked it too much. The current ratio's are just absurd. 

 

So if a human player (a HUMAN PLAYER !!) cannot easily beat a bit lesser skilled player most of the time, when at severe disadvantage of gear/level, how can you expect an AI to be of any threat when he is going to die in 2 seconds ?!?!

 

Because the AI have access to weapons and information a human player can never either have or process.

 

Computer controlled enemies in warframe, clearly know exactly where you are as soon as you enter a room. They can practically see you through the walls. Their reaction time will always be faster than a humans, and their aim, far more accurate. Aside from that, they have strength in numbers. 

 

I don't really see what you're getting at here. They might die in 2 seconds, but they'll have done more damage in those 2 seconds than any human player could reliably do. 

[rksk16it]

Because the AI have access to weapons and information a human player can never either have or process.

 

Computer controlled enemies in warframe, clearly know exactly where you are as soon as you enter a room. They can practically see you through the walls. Their reaction time will always be faster than a humans, and their aim, far more accurate. Aside from that, they have strength in numbers. 

 

I don't really see what you're getting at here. They might die in 2 seconds, but they'll have done more damage in those 2 seconds than any human player could reliably do. 

 

Dont underestimate the capabilities of a human player over an AI. Even with slight disadvantage a human is far far more dangerous opponent than a cheating AI with better information/weapons can ever be. A human will bait you, play with your mind, frustate you into making mistakes and a plethora of techniques in an extremely unpredictable fashion which is impossible to implement in an AI with current technology. And last, but not least, a human can *learn* your tricks while IN the game, and devise counter-strategies on the go, whereas even the most complex AIs currently existing today are MUCH more predictable than a stupid human.

 

Even with all that, a human STILL loses to another human pretty often when at disadvantage of gear/level/etc..

 

Now you can argue you can make enemies pretty lethal.. like maybe kill any Tenno in one shot, still they will have a pretty tough time with warframes we have available today like Frost/Vauban. And some abilities like Saryn's Venom, well if I pop a spore out of one, it will reveal multiple enemies in a significant radius near my target, and not only that, but will DoT them which will potentially kill them.

[MECT_HET]

Because the AI have access to weapons and information a human player can never either have or process.

 

Computer controlled enemies in warframe, clearly know exactly where you are as soon as you enter a room. They can practically see you through the walls. Their reaction time will always be faster than a humans, and their aim, far more accurate. Aside from that, they have strength in numbers. 

 

I don't really see what you're getting at here. They might die in 2 seconds, but they'll have done more damage in those 2 seconds than any human player could reliably do. 

Talking about accurate aim? I'd rather talk about no-spread-no-recoil Grakatas, Burstons, Gorgons and Supras. Unexplainable. Yes, they know where you are since the moment they're stopped playing "i don't see you, player, sneaking behind" role and alert is coming. All the worst thing DE could ever do with the artifical intelligence, they've aleady done: AI's aimbot and wallhack are already present. 

 

The only thing remains - is making AI's reaction lightning fast and here we go - Counter-Strike, POD-bot is in the house.

 

So there was absolutelly no reason to make AI's even more stupid with this sponge capabilities. Give them weapon, able to one-two-shot player and call it a Tactical Shooter. Much more challenging and even more ninja-like. In the return we should almost forget about the parkour though.

[11.11.11]

A human will bait you, play with your mind, frustate you into making mistakes and a plethora of techniques in an extremely unpredictable fashion which is impossible to implement in an AI with current technology. And last, but not least, a human can *learn* your tricks while IN the game, and devise counter-strategies on the go, whereas even the most complex AIs currently existing today are MUCH more predictable than a stupid human.

 

All we verse in Warframe. Are AI enemies. Which cannot be lured, frustrated into making mistakes - or any of the other dynamic strategies that one can employ in a PVP game. We're at a disadvantage here because all that matters is who see who and starts shooting first. The only one-up we have against our enemies here are possibly more powerful weapons, and our powers.

 

Which is why your justification for inflating the enemy units health falls through. They're already unrelenting aimbots, that have health that scales to a ridiculous level. Our powers (for the most part) don't scale exponentially. Which is why they will always win past round 50 of endless defense. It's why the last 3 rounds of T3 defences are so nerve-wracking, even if you have a vauban and a nova spamming their ultimates. 

 

 

The enemies don't need more health, they need lower scaling ratios, and more engaging behavior. 

[rksk16it]

All we verse in Warframe. Are AI enemies. Which cannot be lured, frustrated into making mistakes - or any of the other dynamic strategies that one can employ in a PVP game. We're at a disadvantage here because all that matters is who see who and starts shooting first. The only one-up we have against our enemies here are possibly more powerful weapons, and our powers.

 

Which is why your justification for inflating the enemy units health falls through. They're already unrelenting aimbots, that have health that scales to a ridiculous level. Our powers (for the most part) don't scale exponentially. Which is why they will always win past round 50 of endless defense. It's why the last 3 rounds of T3 defences are so nerve-wracking, even if you have a vauban and a nova spamming their ultimates. 

 

 

The enemies don't need more health, they need lower scaling ratios, and more engaging behavior. 

 

Yes we do "bait" AI opponents. Decoy, Molt, etc.. AI is much simpler to bait because once you learn what they are looking for, its basically done.

 

Last 3 rounds of T3 are not that hard with an organized group. As Saryn I can melt the last wave within 15-20 seconds, if I have a Frost and Vauban in my team, once the enemies are stuck with Bastile, they are as good as dead. My point is, if some player is *CHOOSING* to play beyond 40 waves of defense while fully aware that there is no reward, then SOMETHING must scale.

 

Now you can scale basically two kinds of things :

1. Raw stats like health, armor, damage, resistances, etc..

2. Behaviour and AI, like you say

 

The first one is easy to implement, while still providing those fully geared players something to do in the game. The second is not really that simple. A few posts ago you said enemies dropping from ceiling, well if that happens, a group will bring a Vauban and 4 energy siphons. Vauban will just keep continuous Bastile active, so even if they drop from ceiling they drop into the suspension of death. Implementation of AI is limited by technology, and is extremely expensive to both design (by DE) and to execute (the game host). Complex AIs like those made to play chess require ENORMOUS computing powers. And chess is a very simple game, in a sense that at any single turn, only a handful of moves are legal. In any complex game which simulate reality closer to real world, like shooters in general, it is not realistic to expect extremely advanced AIs to run on normal computers (if DE can implement them at first place, which isnt likely).

[11.11.11]

The first one is easy to implement, while still providing those fully geared players something to do in the game. The second is not really that simple. A few posts ago you said enemies dropping from ceiling, well if that happens, a group will bring a Vauban and 4 energy siphons. Vauban will just keep continuous Bastile active, so even if they drop from ceiling they drop into the suspension of death. Implementation of AI is limited by technology, and is extremely expensive to both design (by DE) and to execute (the game host). Complex AIs like those made to play chess require ENORMOUS computing powers. And chess is a very simple game, in a sense that at any single turn, only a handful of moves are legal. In any complex game which simulate reality closer to real world, like shooters in general, it is not realistic to expect extremely advanced AIs to run on normal computers (if DE can implement them at first place, which isnt likely).

 

 

I'm not arguing for full-blown scalable aritificial intelligence. 

 

The term "AI" is used as a misnomer to refer to all computer-controlled behavior in-game. 

 

In the case of warframe, we need more complex NPC behavior, even if it's achieved through pre-programmed scripted behavior.