Skill Trees suggestion

[Torguish]

Well, this suggestion is fairly old school.

Basically what i want is that we have seperate skill trees. 3 to be exact. This could be done so that each Warframe has 3 specifics from lets say about 7 different skill tree types, basically what i'm saying that the skill trees wary between different warframes. Just look at the examples how it would work.

Also you could CHOOSE these skill-trees yourself

Skill tree types would be:

Support - Would be used for warframes like trinity, increase healing done and effects of skills.

Elements - Excellent warframe like Frost & Ember. Increases also MOD damage.

Stealth - Stealthy warframe like Ash. If stealth is ever added, this could be used to boost things like noise generated and the distance where enemies see you. Also damage caused to unaware enemies.

Movement - Increase stamina, running speed, jumping distance and stamina depletion & regeneration.

Gunplay - Boosts guns in just about every way.

Brawling - Based in melee skills. Mainly for melee damage, speed, charge speed etc.

Endurance - Armor and Health increases, stagger/stun/status effect resistance & other defensive stats.

Some examples what would my Warframes have:

Ash Skill Tree set

1: Stealth

2: Brawling

3: Gunplay/Movement

Trinity Skill Tree set:

1: Support

2: Gunplay

3: Movement

Excalibur Skill Tree set:

1: Brawling

2: Gunplay

3: Endurance

Rhino Skill Tree set:

1: Endurance

2: Brawling

3: Movement (?)

Ember / Frost Skill Tree set:

1: Elements

2: Brawling

3: Gunplay

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I'm also thinking that you could Choose the skill trees yourself so it wouldn't be limited but it would cost you to change them and respeccing, just like now.

This would add a lot of modification freedom and differences to each Warframes, 3 Excaliburs can be completely Different, while now even tho specced differently, they are pretty much the same. The biggest difference comes from the mods.

Also you would still have 30 points at level 30. And each tree could have about 20 skill points for spending, this would allow you to mix and match but now go completely crazy.

EDIT:

These ''Skill Trees'' can be called ''Specilization Chip'', considering Warframes are practically multi-purpose battle suits, this fits the theme. If all suits have ''default'' trees the devs can make more trees unlockable through the Foundry or make the buyable via platinum. Once you unlock 1, you unlock it for good per Warframe that is.

EDIT #2[Answers to good questions and suggestions] :

I'll add something i had in mind since someone already asked :)

My immediate question is, how deep would the trees be? Is it worth it if the tree is only 3-4 layers deep? With three seperate trees at four layers deep they would have to do quite a bit of balancing. Are the trees shared? ie. Gunplay Ash and Gunplay Ember. Are they the same Gunplay trees, or customized for each character? Remember the amount of balancing you're asking for!

How would mods work? Would they be baseline or still chosen through skill points?

There's a lot of questions that could be asked about this system! Could you answer these and go in to more detail?

Every Warframe should have a ''default'' set. But what i'm thinking is that you could basically unlock every skill tree for each Warframe you own.

So by default it would be pretty much:

Ember [Default]:

1: Elements

2: Melee

3: Gunplay

Ash[Default]:

1: Movement

2: Stealth

3: Melee

And if unlocked more ''Spec chips'' you can do whatever you want.

Ash [Modified]:

1: Movement

2: Gunplay

3: Endurance

Ember [Modified]:

1: Gunplay

2: Melee

3: Brawling

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I'm fully aware that these are random but the point is this:

While default Ash is Stealthy, i basically changed him to a gunning powerbomb. So the gameplay style changes drastically. And Ember switched from using the elements into using a gun and melee weapons with pure damage for some reason.

Also the skill trees would consist of 4 tiers. with 5 points each making it 20 points max/tree. But you have 30 points to use.

So basically you can be: ([*] = points distributed/tree)

Brawler [20]

Gunplay[10]

Stealth [0]

or

Brawler [10]

Gunplay [15]

Stealth [5]

Also, equipment modifications would still be there as they are, i think they should not be altered.

And no, i haven't thought about how the ''talent''s would affect yet but i'll see to it if i have the time.

But i'll throw in T1 (first 5 points for the tree) for an example

Stealth T1:

1/1: Reduced noise generation -10%/Point [0/5]

1/2: Damage dealt to unaware enemies +15%/Point [0/2]

Brawler T1:

1/1 Damage increased using blades (Daggers/Swords) 5%/level [0/5]

1/2 Speed increased using heavy weapons (Hammers/Axes) 5%/level [0/5]

1/3 Stun chanced increased using polearms (Eg. Bo) 3%/level [0/5]

In here you can see you have to choose in some cases and carefully.

Also you don't have to spend in a certain skill to unlock certain things in this tree. It works like this:

Tier 1 - Spend 5 points - Tier 2 - Spend 5 more points - Tier 3 and so on..

And for the mods:

Take them out from Warframes, not the game, weapons and equipment should use them but in Warframes they are a bit blergh. The game already has so much to grind and farm that it becomes such a gear rush even without the mods for Warframes.

This would make you think how do you want to play and STICK to it. Right now it doesn't really matter where you put them and the difference in Warframes is basically difference in MODs, nothing else. This is why weapons should stay the same, since they are the same weapons but Warframes are controlled by different... ..people?

Thats my opinion tho.

I am also aware how much balancing this would require but considering everyone has a chance of using the same trees, it shouldn't be a problem. This would also mean the game would require more Teamwork since players will have a role in a group.

Also different warframes being effective in different areas of combat and teamwork would eliminate the need of a cookie-cutter-build.

This is a RAW version of this, if devs decide to like it and maybe think about implenting i can promise you i will put up more information. Also will be more information when people ask. :)

Hope this helped Zyphi.

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Torguish, your idea sounds good, but for it to really work the level cap should be raised to 45 (no more) or some of the health/ power capacity/ shield nodes should be added passively at every 5 or 10 levels to allow for more custimization. (I personally wouldn't mind that 'or' becoming an 'and.')

I know what you mean and i agree. I mean, what works for the game, works for me, obviously. :P

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I wa thinking, u have a great concept, but why restrain frames to 3 trees?

I mean, let the frames have 5 trees, or so.

for example; rhino, ember, forst, and the other frames also deserve some stealth skill points. also ash should have a gunplay tree for snipers.

but for example (just soome random numbers, but u geet the idea):

RHINO:

endunrance: 20 points tree

gunplay:15 points tree

brawl: 15 points tree

stealh: 5 points tree

movement: 5 points tree

EMBER/FROST:

elements: 20 points tree

gunplay: 15 points tree

brawl: 10 points tree

movement: 10 points tree

support: 5 points tree

and so on, i chose to make 60 skill points systems, but thats to devs to decide, if they ever make such change.

just a though.

:D

Restrain 3 trees is solely because while having to choose, people would stick to a certain playstyle which is what i'm after. Rhino IS a more full on, psydo-chuck-norris style class and Ash IS stealthy. Your idea would make a Warframe almost perfect in every aspect. That's like giving ninjas unpenetrable armor with swords shooting fireballs. They wouldn't have to be stealthy anymore, it would be pure OP.

This would increase the chance of generating a cookie-cutter build and choosing a certain Warframe for a certain playstyle would become almost irrelevant.

Also this would allow balancing a lot easier and the devs would have more control over these trees. If something combined with something would be OP, devs COULD control this a lot easier.

And one MOORE thing (Jackie Chan old man style): Difference in Warframes would decrease by a long shot, which is what i'm trying to eliminate. If everyone can do everything with little minor difference in certain areas, you wouldn't feel special anymore.. :D

Remember, too much is too much. :P

I'm not saying your idea is bad, i'm saying that it would need a LOT more tweaking and i feel like this system i made up here suits it better.

When i'm playing a Stealth specced Ash, i don't want a gunplay-focused Ash come around and start doing everything pretty much the same as me..

Also in the end, like you said, it's for the devs to decide..

Hope this helped!

Thank you!

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Rift's soul tree system is literally exactly this.

I don't know if it would end up being much better than the Dead-Space system that we have now. Basically, what you're asking for is a WoW/D2/LoL/Hawken/Torchlight/Whatever "talent tree" / "skill tree" system, with the Rift (semi-decent MMO, really) soul-swapping.

Soul-swapping pretty much let you have dual-spec or tri-spec kind of stuff. You could switch your 21/0/9 build with your 0/9/21 build just by selecting it from one of your five "saved variants" which was nice. Pretty much instead of respeccing you could have a handful of different builds for different situations.

Anyway, the biggest problem with your idea is that it would take a huge amount of developer man-hours to implement. First off, they need to make all these trees, and all the abilities/bonuses/whatever-you-spec-into in these trees...Then they need to build a UI for it, something that would need completely new artwork and code. On top of that, it would require a ton of balancing, and a remake of pretty much every Warframe's skills.

That would be a ton of time that the devs could be spending elsewhere. On top of that, it would make the game more derivative than it already is. And it would make each Warframe practically interchangeable, because you can pick what skill tree it has. You didn't mention Warframe abilities, but I'm assuming they'd be the same as they are right now, in which case, everyone would find the trees that synergize best with their abilities and min/max with them, or just warp their Warframe into whatever they want it to be with your "spec-chip" idea. Meaning less of a need to have other Warfames, meaning less content being consumed by the player, meaning less sales of Warframes for the devs, though they could sell spec-chips, the whole concept just becomes cumbersome at that point.

Besides, most players only get 15 points to spend on until they supercharge a Warframe, meaning they wouldn't have access to the full depth of any of these skill trees, let alone customizing stuff with multiple ones.

Also, you said to remove Warframe mods. Where do they go? The ones that people have now, and farmed? Devs now need to go back through and remake loot drop tables for every enemy in the game? The amount of work involved is absurd. If they were going to a new skill tree system, I would want it to be something unique, special, not derivative from every other MMO on the planet.

I am fully aware of all these things but how is this current system better? And the fact that this system resembles the same system from another game is irrelevant. If the devs want this, they can work on it an add it. This is what suggestions are for, there is no need to t-down a system because ''it's too much work for the devs!''. People want stealth in this game, should it be ignored because it's too much work? Even now people can't have everything if not supercharge your Warframe. I mean, you can get +30% damage with mods, which is pretty huge yet your playing style is identical to every other Ash out there.

And yes, i said remove Warframe mods, they are completely useless and unusable in this system. They would feel forced and mostly be annoying. This idea is based solely on making the same Warframes feel different. I'm not trying something universally different, i want it to be plain and simple. I don't care about other games.

And ''Meaning less of a need to have other Warfames, meaning less content being consumed by the player, meaning less sales of Warframes for the devs, though they could sell spec-chips, the whole concept just becomes cumbersome at that point.''

WUT?

Do you really need any Warframe in a group right now? I don't see anyone going around ''LF ASH GROUP PLS''. Ember/Trinity/Rhino still play really differently, not matter what you spec. You can play them in different ways, but Ember still is mainly Elements, Trinity support and Rhino head-on-tank-force. It's hard enough to Farm these Warframes, this system would give more diversity to play with a Warframe. I don't have a lot of money right now so i can't buy one. My Excalibur is level 30 and i can't do anything different right now. I'm stuck with him and it's dull and rather, i think Warframe is holding itself back.

Also funny calling this system cumbersome when the most important items for progressing in gear is pretty much plat only, i've been doing missions for 3 weeks now and farming non-stop, i haven't had ONE CATALYST OR REACTOR.This requires some heavy-luck. This system here would not require you to be so locked in your progress. You can buy a spec-chip and make your Warframe just that, YOUR OWN WARFRAME.

Now tell me again, how is this bad?

And you want ''something unique and special'' yet this skill tree system is a simplified version of ''every other MMO on the planet''. Come on man. If you can think of something truly unique and special, then do it. Right now i like this one, why? Simple: It's simple, fun, diverse and most importantly, IT WORKS.

People have tried ''something unique'' all the time but it's risky and might not come out right. I mean look at OTHER GAMES like Kingdoms of Amalur or TERA, since you brought up mmorpgs. They ''offered something unique!'' and failed. Why? Because it didn't work.

Thank you for your critism but if i think that as a suggestion, this goes through. I'm not expecting them to add this system right away, they can do whatever they need to make this game better but i'm getting bored because i'm not willing to pay 20 euros for a Warframe, instead of getting the full extent from this class.

But i'd also appreciate you viewing this system just for this game, how would it work etc and really realistically. Don't pull up other games, everything you said can be countered with something fairly simple.

Also, can players PLEASE forget other games and focus on making this game more enjoyable for both free and paid players? I'm talking about WARFRAME, not RIFT, LoL, WoW or any other mmorpg. Warframe. I'm looking for something that works.

Ps: Btw, i've played almost every mmorpg there is out there, including RIFT. Rift was awesome and i liked playing around, even when i used 1 class i could play him in multiple different ways which was awesome. But still, Rogues were rogues no matter how you decide to play them.

No more things like these please.. :|

My tree still have decent customization, possiblity over 200 nodes where you can pick only 30. So your argument is totally out of...

Your tree have problems...

1) To make so many trees, for every waframe (remember new ones will be probably added all time), developers will need lot of time to balance them, plus making them. You need to make realistic requests or you will end up with many superb small trees where there wont be any customization at all.

2)If you make all the trees the same for every frame, meaning less work, realistic work, it will totally remove diffrence between all frames except ofc just 4 abilities. So thats failure of customization too.

3)Every idea got flaws, if you think your dont (and you state that), then you cant really give good feedback. Everything got cons and pros, if you want to give good suggestion try to present both sides of it comparing to current system.

4)Warframes resemble pokemon archetypes alot. Support, elemental types, stealth, tank, and probably new archetypes in future. Every frame got its own role and if you take it away by giving "do what you want", you remove the touch that developers give to the frames. You should be able to customize your frame, but within some boundries of "style". Like I wrote, when there is melee oriented frame its just dumb to give it possiblity to be master at guns, why would the melee oriented frame exist in first place then?

You suggest basicaly only larger system too, so what are you talking about? You just add more sectored structure, with sems dumbed down alot. You can basicaly put any "bonus/skill" under offense/defense/utility, you dont really need any more trees unless you make it for someone who get loost in toilet OR if you want to overhelm developers with additional work.

You just counter argument yourself. Firs you say its bad that trinity cant deal damage as excalibur, then you write your system wont really change anything since everything will be limited anyway to given playstyle. Make up your mind maybe?

I want to keep style as it is, I wont support people who pick Trinity thinking it will be damage dealer (lol). Thats not bad design, thats bad logic behind user that play the game. If people dont look at given warframe it just mean its abilities are weaker than other frames and need buff, or people are just bad at utilizing given frame, or they just dont know what for there are frame types and then they whine.

I want customization and freedom too, but like I wrote, realistic for developer to make within boundries of playstyle of given frame. Totall freedom wont work well in this game, so I hope you dont mean that.

Let me add counterargument to your lower statements.

First off, every system that allow customization will create cookie-cutter builds, so stop talking b.... ok? Your system will do it more greatly, because it give bigger customization with is much harder to balance for developers. Higher customization is nothing bad, but it require tons and tons of work to make it even work. Again be realistic at suggestions.

I really didnt failed to interpret your system at all, you just act like it dont have any flaws, and I already wrote about that.

Ash is more melee weapon oriented, as I know hammer is still melee oriented so its within his playstyle. Additionaly current stealth game still need lot of fixes to work well and be in some place, so first wait for that. Now you cant really talk about anything being stealth based.

Again guns and pokemons really dont fit each other, its like talking about Warframe using cards from yu-gi-oh to fight lol.

Play ashe aggresive instead of stealthy and hide in cover? Wasnt hiding being stealthy and non-head-on or did I miss something?

Head-on means you jump into 10 enemies and massacre them like berserk with gignatic sword, mopping the floor with them, not hiding with little shuriken behind cover.

Exaclibur is jack-of-all-trades for me, he isnt really the head-on guy, Rhino is more head-on guy in this game.

By the name excalibur I would think he is melee oriented similary to Ash, but more tanky rather than stealthy, still he isnt superb tanky comparing to Rhino.

Like I said, probably few times already, you can put EVERYTHING you came up with in offense/defense/utility or even a single tree if you want.

Depends if you want dumbed down sectioned to max tree or overhelming gigant like Path of Exile. I would go into the middle of the ground, you want to go to partition everything to max on the other hand.

1: There is no Melee oriented Warframe, they have spezialazation in a certain area but they all have A sword, Guns and the ability to move like ninjas.

2: They all have stealth capabalities.

3: They all have their unique skill set which helps them to get around differently.

4: That's why i said: More easy to generate a blast-through cookie cutter build. This system HAS been done before and it DOES give players the possibility to play like they want, without any problems you stated. RIFT.

5: This system does not change your Warframe, it only enchances is in the direction you want to. Since, you know.. they can all use Guns, Swords, Stealth(Broken, but still.), Elements (In swords and weapons etc..), Ninja-like movement AND if you have the correct MODS you can make yourself a tanky Warframe.

The only things Warframes have ''spec'' are playstyles like:

Tanky (Endurance)

Stealth

Support

Elemental & Physical damage.

But HOW you play them is still different like so:

Do you use skills, swords or guns for stealth kills? Do you like elemental damage more than physical? Do you have to play a supportive role or can you just heal yourself more effectively? Do you have to use guns/swords? Maybe you want to be more ninja with increased running speed and better wallrun/slide skills? Or tanky? Or stealthy? or elemental..-ly?

There is no melee Warframe, Gunner Warframe. You can play them already how you wan't but the lack of innovation in the current system does not really make you want to try out new stuff. If you prove me wrong, i will go and cry in corner.. :(

6: This does not ''take away the devs touch'' and also; Isn't that for the devs to decide, again?

7: Again guns and pokemons really dont fit each other, its like talking about Warframe using cards from yu-gi-oh to fight lol.

You didn't get the point at all.. didn't you. I said you CAN teach a pokemon to use these things by not changing it's core essence, element. You can teach a pokemon different ways in countering certain situations.

My point shortly: You can win a fight with a water type pokemon against electric type pokemon. If that was their weakness, don't remember much about pokemon. That's my point.

8: The reason I think behind ''oriented'' warframes is simple: the skills. It's up to you how to use them. Right now, with your tree a stealth run including Rhino because ''it doesn't feel like and he doesn't fit in.''.

9: Ash is a stealth-based Warframe, not melee. If he was a melee oriented, how come i see other Ashes blast in with guns blazing? I just... don't get it.

10: The main style still would be from the skills. And when you start, you can only play with the default trees. Which with later on, you can modify if you buy and/or farm more spec chips. This can give you the full extent with that specific Warframe.

*

Examples:

You want to solo runs correctly with let's say... Trinity. But it's more of a solo Warframe, you can't because it's a support, it's made for Supporting. With multiple trees you can play like YOU want. You can make a stealthy trinity, head-on tanky trinity, melee trinity, gunplay trinity, ELEMENTAL NINJA TRINITY.

Again, you wan't to play a bit more stealthy but you play Rhino. What do you do, you buy or grind yourself a new warframe? I think just no.

11; How does your system prolong the game? I mean, when you get bored with your Warframe, what gives you a reason to play with him again if you can't change the style of play in a way?

I'm getting bored as hell of Excalibur. I would like to try him out more diversly.

While yes, i think the system i'm suggesting needs a lot of balancing, throwing in things like Pokemon, the stupid 'it's too much work for the devs'' arguments. If you can prove me wrong i will lift my hat to you.

Also, rather than trying to shove your own idea here, while this is MY suggestion i'd like a way to make it better and more fitting, since balance in this game is rather imporant.

With this i'm looking for this:

-More diversity in Warframes.

-Don't get bored so easily.

-Better chance of playing with friends when they want to do eg.. Stealth run but you want to play Rhino.

- Allow fully free customization

- More reason to grind.

If you want to you can make your own Skill tree suggestion you know.. :D Or, like i said before, explain your idea fully and i will put it up there with YOUR nametag, we can discuss balancing etc.

Yes, i'm an extremely aggressive debater, please excuse me if i have offended you any way but i think this is a lot of fun.. D:

Edited February 12, 2013 by Torguish

[Ruplaxx]

I like this idea. So you can custom your Excalibur like you want, it won´t be the same like others.

Great job dude!!

-Ruplaax

[Raghnal]

This is a great idea =)

[Noxwyn]

I think this is a really good idea! :)

[OutIavv]

Nice idea! I'm getting really tired of seeing an ash on my team thats exactly like mine =.=. I hope that the game developers would do something like this soon.

[GOWAN]

yes!!! most definitly the skill trees are a mess this is exatly how they should be set up !!

[Torguish]

Thank you all, i will follow this post and keep adding realistic and good ideas. Be sure to read through the whole thing before suggesting something, it might be there! :)

Also will accept critisism, if anything needs changing we can discuss!

[OutIavv]

Revived after a couple hours... warframe community you all need to see this because ill bet that most of you will agree to this

[Zythi]

My immediate question is, how deep would the trees be? Is it worth it if the tree is only 3-4 layers deep? With three seperate trees at four layers deep they would have to do quite a bit of balancing. Are the trees shared? ie. Gunplay Ash and Gunplay Ember. Are they the same Gunplay trees, or customized for each character? Remember the amount of balancing you're asking for!

How would mods work? Would they be baseline or still chosen through skill points?

There's a lot of questions that could be asked about this system! Could you answer these and go in to more detail?

[Torguish]

My immediate question is, how deep would the trees be? Is it worth it if the tree is only 3-4 layers deep? With three seperate trees at four layers deep they would have to do quite a bit of balancing. Are the trees shared? ie. Gunplay Ash and Gunplay Ember. Are they the same Gunplay trees, or customized for each character? Remember the amount of balancing you're asking for!

How would mods work? Would they be baseline or still chosen through skill points?

There's a lot of questions that could be asked about this system! Could you answer these and go in to more detail?

Every Warframe should have a ''default'' set. But what i'm thinking is that you could basically unlock every skill tree for each Warframe you own.

So by default it would be pretty much:

Ember [Default]:

1: Elements

2: Melee

3: Gunplay

Ash[Default]:

1: Movement

2: Stealth

3: Melee

And if unlocked more ''Spec chips'' you can do whatever you want.

Ash [Modified]:

1: Movement

2: Gunplay

3: Endurance

Ember [Modified]:

1: Gunplay

2: Melee

3: Brawling

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I'm fully aware that these are random but the point is this:

While default Ash is Stealthy, i basically changed him to a gunning powerbomb. So the gameplay style changes drastically. And Ember switched from using the elements into using a gun and melee weapons with pure damage for some reason.

Also the skill trees would consist of 4 tiers. with 5 points each making it 20 points max/tree. But you have 30 points to use.

So basically you can be: ([*] = points distributed/tree)

Brawler [20]

Gunplay[10]

Stealth [0]

or

Brawler [10]

Gunplay [15]

Stealth [5]

Also, equipment modifications would still be there as they are, i think they should not be altered.

And no, i haven't thought about how the ''talent''s would affect yet but i'll see to it if i have the time.

But i'll throw in T1 (first 5 points for the tree) for an example

Stealth T1:

1/1: Reduced noise generation -10%/Point [0/5]

1/2: Damage dealt to unaware enemies +15%/Point [0/2]

Brawler T1:

1/1 Damage increased using blades (Daggers/Swords) 5%/level [0/5]

1/2 Speed increased using heavy weapons (Hammers/Axes) 5%/level [0/5]

1/3 Stun chanced increased using polearms (Eg. Bo) 3%/level [0/5]

In here you can see you have to choose in some cases and carefully.

Also you don't have to spend in a certain skill to unlock certain things in this tree. It works like this:

Tier 1 - Spend 5 points - Tier 2 - Spend 5 more points - Tier 3 and so on..

And for the mods:

Take them out from Warframes, not the game, weapons and equipment should use them but in Warframes they are a bit blergh. The game already has so much to grind and farm that it becomes such a gear rush even without the mods for Warframes.

This would make you think how do you want to play and STICK to it. Right now it doesn't really matter where you put them and the difference in Warframes is basically difference in MODs, nothing else. This is why weapons should stay the same, since they are the same weapons but Warframes are controlled by different... ..people?

Thats my opinion tho

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The bad point of the suggestion is the amount of the trees, also if everyone can have every tree it just make the warframe types useless at some point. Your warframe type should be specialized in given thing, thats why you pick it, just like a pokemon. You cant make water type out of pikachu only because you pay or grind lol. Thats why melee specialized/designed warframe should never be good at gunplay, that would just break the prupose of having different frames.

I would make simple 3 trees: offense, defense, utility. You can still spec alot if the trees are big enough like ~50 points each.

Additionaly to that make a tree that is "Ability" tree, where you modify all 4 abilities of your frame, or even have more than just 4 abilities.

Each tree should have limitations too, like giving 3 good choices, but you can pick only one, and the other two become blocked even if you have the points to spend.

For example you spend 5 points on the "common" bonuses to abilities and then you got to pick 1 out of 3 big ones (lets say for Ash):

1)Throw 5 shurikens in spread, lower the range and damage of the ability.

2)Teleport automaticly cast charge attack with increased charge damage.

3)Smoke bomb (or what was the name) break shields of enemies.

You pick one, then spend another 5 points on common and again pick one good one, or you can always spec only in the common ones.

There always will be cookie-cutter builds as long as there is customization, only perfect balance will make them wanish, and thats almost impossible to do.

And the bad part about YOUR trees is simply no customization what so ever. You right away go amd point out your problem with the tree even tho there is none. I mean really. Warframes are not pokemon, they are space ninjas, literally. It's been said by the devs and by the community.

Also, the reason behind the reason why I want multiple trees is simple: YOU WANT TO PLAY YOUR WARFRAME YOUR WAY.

How am i making different warframes like this? I don't see it. You play a Warframe because you like it's skill, appearence and how it co-ops with the skills you use. You are only suggestion a larger system from what we have now and right now, it sucks.

Also, the CURRENT system gives a much easier way in making other warframes useless. HOW SO? Think about it, while pretty much everyone has the same tree, the main thing in this game is killing. And i can say, Excalibur is a lot better at killing than let's say... Trinity. When will you understand that people will never look for a certain warframe? They want customization and freedom in modification and playstyle.

With this specific system, Warframes will still be played how they are meant to be played. Wether it being stealth or head-on. If you want a full stealth group, your system would simply suggest that trinity can't go stealth like Ash because of he can't be leaning towards stealth, because he's a support type Warframe.

Let me explain to you this in pokemon terms:

I am not trying to change the TYPE of pokemon, rather it's style in battle.

- You CAN teach pikachu to fight in the dark by physical damage only.

- You CAN teach hitmonlee to throw sand in someones eye, or maybe even use a GUN.

- You can ''train'' your Pokemon into being a space ninja, while utilizing the same skills he already has, wether he being a lightning or water type pokemon. He can use those abilities in both Stealth AND Head-on battle, this only depends on how you TRAIN your pokemon.

So as you see, you failed to interpret the system i'm brining. You assume this will change the essence of these Warframes which is only based on their SKILLS, not TALENTS.

And also, if thats a big problem to you, how is not Ash using a huge hammer not, i mean, doesn't that KILL that warframes ''element'' or ''essence''? I mean, you can't put 2 miniguns on Blastoise or give him Uzis, now can you?

Examples:

-When i pick Ash, i like to be aggressive, not stealthy. I like to disappear while IN battle, get into cover and throw shurikens from a blind angle. Even tho, Ash is suppost the ''Stealthy''.

-When i pick Excalibur, i like to be stealthy, using my Blade Dash for multiple, silent takedowns or blinding enemies and taking them down before they can react. Even tho Excalibur is suppost to be more ''Head-on''.*

So sorry, i don't see it as a ''problem''. I see a lot more problems in your system, since it will generate cookie cutter build a lot more easily since there is next to NO reason in trying new builds.

And ps: This game is pretty much pure grinding, that's exactly why you grind. To modify your Warframe and be more powerful. I'm giving more of a reason to grind.

Hopefully you understand why i don't like the current and/or your system. Specially when, again, there is no problem. Not in modification, freedom and no, it doesn't ''ruin'' other warframes.

Next time:

Don't overcompensate the effects these things would have on Warframes, rather think how they would work. And if you want to give critisism, do it in a matter where you actually see a PROBLEM and ask how to fix it.

If you want to suggest your own system, do it in a tought out way. if it's any good, i will put it up there as ''another version'' or something.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Torguish

[lonelydrone]

I was thinking, u have a great concept, but why restrain frames to 3 trees?

I mean; for example; rhino, ember, forst, and the other frames also deserve some stealth skill points. also ash should have a gunplay tree for snipers........my point is, let the frames have 5 trees or so.

For example (just some random numbers, but u'll get the idea):

RHINO:

endunrance: 20 points tree

gunplay:15 points tree

brawl: 15 points tree

stealh: 5 points tree

movement: 5 points tree

EMBER/FROST:

elements: 20 points tree

gunplay: 15 points tree

brawl: 10 points tree

movement: 10 points tree

support: 5 points tree

and so on, I chose a 60 skill points systems, but that's for devs to decide, if they ever make such change.

just a though.

:D

Edited February 6, 2013 by lonelydrone

[Torguish]

I wa thinking, u have a great concept, but why restrain frames to 3 trees?

I mean, let the frames have 5 trees, or so.

for example; rhino, ember, forst, and the other frames also deserve some stealth skill points. also ash should have a gunplay tree for snipers.

but for example (just soome random numbers, but u geet the idea):

RHINO:

endunrance: 20 points tree

gunplay:15 points tree

brawl: 15 points tree

stealh: 5 points tree

movement: 5 points tree

EMBER/FROST:

elements: 20 points tree

gunplay: 15 points tree

brawl: 10 points tree

movement: 10 points tree

support: 5 points tree

and so on, i chose to make 60 skill points systems, but thats to devs to decide, if they ever make such change.

just a though.

:D

Restrain 3 trees is solely because while having to choose, people would stick to a certain playstyle which is what i'm after. Rhino IS a more full on, psydo-chuck-norris style class and Ash IS stealthy. Your idea would make a Warframe almost perfect in every aspect. That's like giving ninjas unpenetrable armor with swords shooting fireballs. They wouldn't have to be stealthy anymore, it would be pure OP.

This would increase the chance of generating a cookie-cutter build and choosing a certain Warframe for a certain playstyle would become almost irrelevant.

Also this would allow balancing a lot easier and the devs would have more control over these trees. If something combined with something would be OP, devs COULD control this a lot easier.

And one MOORE thing (Jackie Chan old man style): Difference in Warframes would decrease by a long shot, which is what i'm trying to eliminate. If everyone can do everything with little minor difference in certain areas, you wouldn't feel special anymore.. :D

Remember, too much is too much. :P

I'm not saying your idea is bad, i'm saying that it would need a LOT more tweaking and i feel like this system i made up here suits it better.

When i'm playing a Stealth specced Ash, i don't want a gunplay-focused Ash come around and start doing everything pretty much the same as me..

Edited February 6, 2013 by Torguish

[V1RTU5]

not a bad idea. i dont have any imediat conserns with what you propose but its very well writen gj

[Torguish]

not a bad idea. i dont have any imediat conserns with what you propose but its very well writen gj

Thank you! :)

[Volume]

Rift's soul tree system is literally exactly this.

I don't know if it would end up being much better than the Dead-Space system that we have now. Basically, what you're asking for is a WoW/D2/LoL/Hawken/Torchlight/Whatever "talent tree" / "skill tree" system, with the Rift (semi-decent MMO, really) soul-swapping.

Soul-swapping pretty much let you have dual-spec or tri-spec kind of stuff. You could switch your 21/0/9 build with your 0/9/21 build just by selecting it from one of your five "saved variants" which was nice. Pretty much instead of respeccing you could have a handful of different builds for different situations.

Anyway, the biggest problem with your idea is that it would take a huge amount of developer man-hours to implement. First off, they need to make all these trees, and all the abilities/bonuses/whatever-you-spec-into in these trees...Then they need to build a UI for it, something that would need completely new artwork and code. On top of that, it would require a ton of balancing, and a remake of pretty much every Warframe's skills.

That would be a ton of time that the devs could be spending elsewhere. On top of that, it would make the game more derivative than it already is. And it would make each Warframe practically interchangeable, because you can pick what skill tree it has. You didn't mention Warframe abilities, but I'm assuming they'd be the same as they are right now, in which case, everyone would find the trees that synergize best with their abilities and min/max with them, or just warp their Warframe into whatever they want it to be with your "spec-chip" idea. Meaning less of a need to have other Warfames, meaning less content being consumed by the player, meaning less sales of Warframes for the devs, though they could sell spec-chips, the whole concept just becomes cumbersome at that point.

Besides, most players only get 15 points to spend on until they supercharge a Warframe, meaning they wouldn't have access to the full depth of any of these skill trees, let alone customizing stuff with multiple ones.

Also, you said to remove Warframe mods. Where do they go? The ones that people have now, and farmed? Devs now need to go back through and remake loot drop tables for every enemy in the game? The amount of work involved is absurd. If they were going to a new skill tree system, I would want it to be something unique, special, not derivative from every other MMO on the planet.

[Torguish]

Rift's soul tree system is literally exactly this.

I don't know if it would end up being much better than the Dead-Space system that we have now. Basically, what you're asking for is a WoW/D2/LoL/Hawken/Torchlight/Whatever "talent tree" / "skill tree" system, with the Rift (semi-decent MMO, really) soul-swapping.

Soul-swapping pretty much let you have dual-spec or tri-spec kind of stuff. You could switch your 21/0/9 build with your 0/9/21 build just by selecting it from one of your five "saved variants" which was nice. Pretty much instead of respeccing you could have a handful of different builds for different situations.

Anyway, the biggest problem with your idea is that it would take a huge amount of developer man-hours to implement. First off, they need to make all these trees, and all the abilities/bonuses/whatever-you-spec-into in these trees...Then they need to build a UI for it, something that would need completely new artwork and code. On top of that, it would require a ton of balancing, and a remake of pretty much every Warframe's skills.

That would be a ton of time that the devs could be spending elsewhere. On top of that, it would make the game more derivative than it already is. And it would make each Warframe practically interchangeable, because you can pick what skill tree it has. You didn't mention Warframe abilities, but I'm assuming they'd be the same as they are right now, in which case, everyone would find the trees that synergize best with their abilities and min/max with them, or just warp their Warframe into whatever they want it to be with your "spec-chip" idea. Meaning less of a need to have other Warfames, meaning less content being consumed by the player, meaning less sales of Warframes for the devs, though they could sell spec-chips, the whole concept just becomes cumbersome at that point.

Besides, most players only get 15 points to spend on until they supercharge a Warframe, meaning they wouldn't have access to the full depth of any of these skill trees, let alone customizing stuff with multiple ones.

Also, you said to remove Warframe mods. Where do they go? The ones that people have now, and farmed? Devs now need to go back through and remake loot drop tables for every enemy in the game? The amount of work involved is absurd. If they were going to a new skill tree system, I would want it to be something unique, special, not derivative from every other MMO on the planet.

I am fully aware of all these things but how is this current system better? And the fact that this system resembles the same system from another game is irrelevant. If the devs want this, they can work on it an add it. This is what suggestions are for, there is no need to t-down a system because ''it's too much work for the devs!''. People want stealth in this game, should it be ignored because it's too much work? Even now people can't have everything if not supercharge your Warframe. I mean, you can get +30% damage with mods, which is pretty huge yet your playing style is identical to every other Ash out there.

And yes, i said remove Warframe mods, they are completely useless and unusable in this system. They would feel forced and mostly be annoying. This idea is based solely on making the same Warframes feel different. I'm not trying something universally different, i want it to be plain and simple. I don't care about other games.

And ''Meaning less of a need to have other Warfames, meaning less content being consumed by the player, meaning less sales of Warframes for the devs, though they could sell spec-chips, the whole concept just becomes cumbersome at that point.''

WUT?

Do you really need any Warframe in a group right now? I don't see anyone going around ''LF ASH GROUP PLS''. Ember/Trinity/Rhino still play really differently, not matter what you spec. You can play them in different ways, but Ember still is mainly Elements, Trinity support and Rhino head-on-tank-force. It's hard enough to Farm these Warframes, this system would give more diversity to play with a Warframe. I don't have a lot of money right now so i can't buy one. My Excalibur is level 30 and i can't do anything different right now. I'm stuck with him and it's dull and rather, i think Warframe is holding itself back.

Also funny calling this system cumbersome when the most important items for progressing in gear is pretty much plat only, i've been doing missions for 3 weeks now and farming non-stop, i haven't had ONE CATALYST OR REACTOR.This requires some heavy-luck. This system here would not require you to be so locked in your progress. You can buy a spec-chip and make your Warframe just that, YOUR OWN WARFRAME.

Now tell me again, how is this bad?

And you want ''something unique and special'' yet this skill tree system is a simplified version of ''every other MMO on the planet''. Come on man. If you can think of something truly unique and special, then do it. Right now i like this one, why? Simple: It's simple, fun, diverse and most importantly, IT WORKS.

People have tried ''something unique'' all the time but it's risky and might not come out right. I mean look at OTHER GAMES like Kingdoms of Amalur or TERA, since you brought up mmorpgs. They ''offered something unique!'' and failed. Why? Because it didn't work.

Thank you for your critism but if i think that as a suggestion, this goes through. I'm not expecting them to add this system right away, they can do whatever they need to make this game better but i'm getting bored because i'm not willing to pay 20 euros for a Warframe, instead of getting the full extent from this class.

But i'd also appreciate you viewing this system just for this game, how would it work etc and really realistically. Don't pull up other games, everything you said can be countered with something fairly simple.

Also, can players PLEASE forget other games and focus on making this game more enjoyable for both free and paid players? I'm talking about WARFRAME, not RIFT, LoL, WoW or any other mmorpg. Warframe. I'm looking for something that works.

Ps: Btw, i've played almost every mmorpg there is out there, including RIFT. Rift was awesome and i liked playing around, even when i used 1 class i could play him in multiple different ways which was awesome. But still, Rogues were rogues no matter how you decide to play them.

[Twixcard]

One of the best suggestions out here, def want it!

Edited February 7, 2013 by Twixcard

[FreshJB2]

Torguish, your idea sounds good, but for it to really work the level cap should be raised to 45 (no more) or some of the health/ power capacity/ shield nodes should be added passively at every 5 or 10 levels to allow for more custimization. (I personally wouldn't mind that 'or' becoming an 'and.')

[Torguish]

Torguish, your idea sounds good, but for it to really work the level cap should be raised to 45 (no more) or some of the health/ power capacity/ shield nodes should be added passively at every 5 or 10 levels to allow for more custimization. (I personally wouldn't mind that 'or' becoming an 'and.')

I know what you mean and i agree. I mean, what works for the game, works for me, obviously. :P

I'll put your idea up there :)

[Torguish]

Shameless Bump

[Hawkeifun]

lol great job +1 :)

[Torguish]

lol great job +1 :)

Thanks you! :)

[Torguish]

BAMP

[S3riaL]

Best topic ever made, I hope Update 7 will give us those changes Steve said :

I'm not english but I heard this

"I wanna smash a hell of the upgrade trees and everything, we already did that once but I want to do it again..."

So I'm pretty sure we have been heard here. That will give a huge impact on the life duration of the game.

[Torguish]

Best topic ever made, I hope Update 7 will give us those changes Steve said :

I'm not english but I heard this

"I wanna smash a hell of the upgrade trees and everything, we already did that once but I want to do it again..."

So I'm pretty sure we have been heard here. That will give a huge impact on the life duration of the game.

Whoo :D Thanks! :D