Betsill Posted December 31, 2017 Share Posted December 31, 2017 (edited) I started playing this game back when i came out in 2013 and played until around nova primes release. I recently got back in to warframe(for better or worse) and i LOVE some of the reworks that DE has already done to frames(Frost, Hydroid in particular), as well as almost all of the new frames. However, there is still room for improvement IMO so imma gonna list my rework ideas for the old frames that i still love, but i feel could be much better. Feel free to list your own rework ideas or tweak/critique mine in the comments. Before we get started i want to list some of my goals 1. Make ALL of their abilities useful/fun to use. This is the primary goal. To many old frames have abilities that are NEVER used and never should be. they are nothing but a waste of energy, time, and ability space so i want to replace/rework them. 2. Make passives worth a damn. I have something like 2k hours in this game and i can only tell you the passives of 5 warframes. Ember because it's not fire immunity, Mag because lol, loki because also lol, Banshee because MR 19 test, and limbo because it's an actual passive. Warframes have very unique feels when you start spamming abilities(for the most part), but i feel like passives are a wasted opportunity to give frames some added individuality that comes through even when you're out of energy. 3. Play up each warframes individual themes. Ivara, Inaros, Frost, Hyrdoid, Nidus, and Harrow come to mind as the best implementations of "themes" IMO for reference. Additional disclaimer these are just my opinions and will probably never happen or even be seen by DE so no flaming pls. Also, some of the new ability names are gonna be dumb because they are irrelevant. Ember: The fire chicken has been one of my favorite frames since i started playing this game and is one of my most used because of just how well she streamlines and makes the game so much less tedious when you just wanna get stuff done. I want to make her more than "turn on WOF and run through them map". This will still be a thing(because i believe that it is a very valuable niche she has), but i want her to have more options as well as more engaging mechanics. Passive: Currently gives her bonus dmg(35% strength) and 10 energy per sec while on fire. This is worthless outside of using javlok to set yourself on fire(set yourself on fire again) since at low lvls the dmg is overkill and at high lvls(when you want the bonus) any fire dmg you take will probably kill you. New passive: immune to fire dmg, and "direct" fire dmg gives her energy(so scorch gives you energy, but standing on fire hazards does not). Catching on fire while you are already on fire will always be dumb and uncanny IMO. Fire is no where near a common enough dmg type for her immunity to be a problem, and her "fire eating" passive to get energy has quite a bit of cost to use since you need to isolate a fire enemy and not kill them with WOF to make use of it. Ability 1: Currently shoots a fire ball. Back in the day almost all frames had an equivalent of this ability, but it's time for it to die. New ability1: "afterburn" Ember shoots fire from her palms to alow herself to hover in the air and gain increased speed. This abilty has 2 instances. 1- if used while on ground it will launch ember a short distance up before coming to a stop and hovering(this is the MINIMUM hover altitude that will always be maintained as long as the ability is active, so that she is not clipping stairs and such that cause her to come out of the ability). 2- if used while in air, ember will hover in place at whatever altitude she is at when she casts the ability. Think iron man. Fire come from her hands that she uses to hover. She can use abilities while in "afterburn", but not weapons. This abiltiy cost energy per second that will stack energy consumption with "world on fire". This will give her much needed mobility at the cost of an even higher energy per second cost and the loss of weapon use for the duration. Should also be VERY useful in POE. Ability 2: This ability is great IMO and doesn't need changes, but i think it would be really nice if it gave ember bonus fire dmg to her weapons by default and gave allies a smaller buff with the augment. Ability 3: Currently creates an expanding wave of fire that leaves a small fire ring. This might be a bit controversial to some ember players, but my changes for fire blast would be to start by removing the fire ring entirely and re introduce an altered form of it. New 3: now has 2 instances. 1(instant cast/while on ground)- creates a wave of fire that expands outwards dealing dmg(same as before) 2- Held cast in air: slam down to a target location unleashing a wave of fire and setting the landing sight ablaze for X seconds(same size as the inside of current fire ring) the "fire spot" is effected by duration and dmg is effected power strength. Ability 4: No changes needed except activation animation IMO. Mag: My most used frame currently. Her rework helped her out a lot, but she is just kinda clunky and doesn't live up to her theme as a magnet frame since "magnetize" is really the only magnetic ability. The rest could easily be put on Nyx and work better since they are more psychokinesis that magnetism as they are now. Mag will also be quite bad against infested as she should be, so yeah. Passive: Currently the definition of worthless "holy crap how is this actually in the game" lol. New Passive: "railgun" Mag significantly increases the projectile speed of bows and throw weapons(new animation for thrown weapons where they shoot are launched from the rails on her arms rather than thrown.), and increases the dmg done be a small % based on power strength. Aside from the thematic awesomeness of this change, thrown weapons particularly are worthless for anything but fun factor just because of the nature of how they function(also, good god why can't spira prime hit anything?). If even one frame can make these weapons "good" i think that is a benefit to the game. Ability 1: Currently pulls enemies in a large area dealing dmg on cast and on contact with terrain. Goodness this is really hard for me to admit needs change, but it just doesn't fit her theme and it really holds back her kit because of how OP and broken it it when it can kill everything it pulls. RIP IO, Jupiter. New Ability: "disarm" Why mag didn't get the ability to disarm enemies and loki did will always remain a mystery to me. Every magnet powered person in every medium pulls the guns out of peoples hands eventually. The ability should work the same way, in the same area, but instead of pulling enemies, it disarms them. Ability 2: Needs no changes. super solid ability that does it's job very well. Ability 3: Currently refills mag's and allies shields(idk why either) and reduces enemy shields/armor dealing dmg(does more, it's a complicated ability). New Ability: "polarize" Instant cast: mag is "polarized" taking reduced dmg from weapons aka opposite of magnetized(like opposite sides of a MAGNET wink*). Held cast: mag charges to increase the range expanding outward around her. On release she "polarizes" enemies and allies. Allies gain % dmg resist from weapons and enemies have "damaged"(see ability 4) armor removed and shields fried(reduction their max shield capacity permanently) as well as disabling nullifier shields permanently(does not effect enemies currently inside bubble of the shields of the nullifier). Ability 4: Currently lifts enemies into the air and crushes them dealing dmg. New ability: Mag lifts enemies that are armored, shield, or robotic, into the air and crushes them for a set amount of dmg + a % the enemies current armor, shield and/or robotics as finisher dmg. All enemy projectiles currently flying will be frozen while crush is being cast and "dropped" at its conclusion("dropped" only matters for explosives like bombard rockets.) Surviving enemies have the % that was crushed categorized as "broken"(or "crushed"). "broken" armor will remain effective until it is removed by "polarize" consecutive crushes will break "unbroken" armor until all armor is "broken". Crush will not effect unarmored or unshielded enemies (yes, this will break DE's current broken scaling for enemy armor since the % armor will let mag one shot high lvl armored enemies because of how absurd armor scaling is. Also yes crush will be worthless against infested and yes "corrosive projection" will negatively effect her crush dmg output. NYX: Nyx is a frame that is dear to my heart since she used to be my go to frame back in the day. She never had a very good kit since 1 and 3 were her only usable abilities and 1 was VERY situational.Even so, her CC was one of the best in the game at the time and was pretty much a must have frame on high lvl content(especially def). Now she was been completely outclassed in every way by new frames like equinox, and limbo and even more by reworks to old frames like frost that has his cc and def power boosted or Oberon, and loki(augment) who do the exact same job with ONE ability but MORE and have and entire kit of other useful abilities. Nyx is in a VERY VERY bad spot and if saryn didn't exist, she would be the worst frame in the game IMO(i forgot atlas existed). Nyx is a Psychic! aka Esper, aka Jedi. Some people may accuse me of copying "jedi powers", but you have to understand that jedi are espers and are not in any way unique to star wars. I will also use references to star was in one or more of these ability changes because it will make it to explain their function. Passive: "precog" Nyx is able to sense danger before it happens to reduce all incoming dmg by X%(something small like 20-30 or something). This will give her more survivability since she will be Ability 1: Same as is now, but with multicast. This way you can create a small army of mind controlled minions up to a certain number. Recast on a mind controlled enemy to cancel. Enemies who aren't canceled directly will throw themselves into the nearest hazard or off a ledge. If no hazard is present, they will shoot themselves dealing finisher dmg(which is affected by "mindfreak" augment) Ability 2: Currently throws up to 3 things(idk what) that proc radiation. This is another one of the "throw something at enemies" abilities that all frames had at the start of this game and just like with ember, it needs to go. New ability: "psychokinesis" Nyx uses psychokinesis to grab a target enemy(or object) + x enemies(based on ability rank and power strength). she can then move enemies around which can knock down other enemies or release to launch them in a direction dealing dmg (based on enemy max HP) upon collision with terrain or other enemies(enemies hit also take dmg based on the thrown enemies HP). These controls should function exactly like they do for "force grab" in "force unleashed" because i don't think there is a better possible way to implement it. Ability 3: Currently makes everyone go crazy and anything. It's literally a radiation proc with a longer duration(unless you have negative duration) with a stun at the beginning. This ability is rendered mostly obsolete by Oberon "hollowed ground" and completely obsolete by loki with "irradiating disarm". So while it can be left as is, and was at one time her only good ability, i think it's best that it gets changed. As is, it overlaps with mind control and if mind control can work on multiple enemies, it overlaps even more so. New Ability: "emit force/force maelstrom/discharge" it's essentially her current 4 but without the absorb part, the invulnerability part, or the enemy agro part. You charge for up to 2-3 seconds which increases the dmg, when released all enemies in range are dmged and knocked down. enemies close to nyx are knocked away. I want to give this ability both range and dmg. Her ult currently has neither. The only thing it has ever been good for is the invulnerability and it's not good at that either since it agros enemies to you that drop poison and other nonsense that will kill you the second it ends. The range is horrendous even with max range so the moderate dmg(that costs you a boatload of energy to store up) is wasted almost every single time. I also wanted to cap the time held so it doesn't become a "sit on def point for 2 and a half waves each time you use". The dmg should fall off around lvl 60 or so, but still be a valuable ability since it has solid cc. Ability 4: Obviously since we moved it to 3 we now need a new 4. New Ability: "Overdrive" Nyx pushes the bounds of her powers a super charges all of her abilities/passive. Passive overdrive: Nyx boosts her precognition and reflexes to avoid 100% of incoming dmg. each instance of dmg avoided will drain additional energy(regardless of how much dmg is avoided). This will allow her to scale into high lvl while making her more vulnerable the longer it takes nyx and her team to kill enemies. more enemies = more bullets = higher energy drain. Ability 1 overdrive: increases the number of enemies that can be controlled. If the amount of enemies currently under "mindcontrol" exceeds the base number when "overdrive" ends" the "mindcontrol" will be canceled on enemies from oldest to newest until the base cap is reached. This will also count as a "forced" cancel for the sake up weather the enemies become suicidal. Ability 2 overdrive: Increases dmg a multiple of X based on power strength. Ability 3 overdrive: increased range? reduced cost? idk i need to think about that one, but i'm leaning to decreasing cost. Valkyr: My all time most used warframe according to my profile. A really fun frame with a cool concept. She has invulnerability for days and ridiculous dmg to anything she can scratch with the clawsm which TBF is alot of things cause DE want's melee to be usefull lol. Aside from her very disappointing Prime visuals(i own all prime frames and she's not only the only frame i use her default skin on, but she's the only one i've even considered doing so) #iwantatail #gersemicannon? #aladvexperimentedonprimetoo? #biggestdisapointment but i digress. Her problem is that she is way to limited in hysteria while also being way to powerful. Stats: this is the only frame that i think needs a stat change as well are ability changes Current stats HP: 300 shield: 150 armor: 600 energy: 100 New stats HP: 500 Shield: 000 armor: 600 energy: 100 Prime stat changes will remain the same. Obviously the actually values can be changed as needed. Right now and since her creation, valkyrs shields are nothing but a nuisance. If there was an option to turn off the "shield depleted" noise in the options i would be cause her shields get depleted every 3 seconds. I think that valkyr should have been the first "no shield" frame, but it was to bold of a design choice back then so they just went with "you technically have a shield... but you really don't". Now that inaros and nidus have "led the charge" so to speak, it's time that valkyr joins them. Passive: Oh wow i never realized this was her passive. I never get knocked down because Im cc immune in hysteria and i never have touchdown delay because i always slide when i hit the ground on all my frames lol. This passive is interesting, even if it is worthless, especially on her. New passive: "berserk" Valkyr gains ability strength, armor, and attach speed stacking up to X% based on dmg she receives. Ability 1: ripline feels really bad to use and has little to no use. Even if it was made to instance cast and it was fixed. the dmg, cc, and mobility are still far too lacking. The only way i think this ability could be kept is 1. it rips enemies limbs off. like regardless of lvl it pulls their limbs off and the enemy is left to deal with their new situation as an amputee. 2. It pulls enemies instantly, and pulls them directly too you where you can melee them for a guaranteed finisher. Otherwise, New ability: "definitely not landslide" valkyr pounces in a target direction. If she comes into contact with an enemy she knocks them over and performs a finisher. if she hits a wall she will automatically perform a wall latch(this is very much a possibly crazy idea, but will be expanded upon in "hysteria"). Ability 2: No changes needed. A wonderful ability IMO It would be really cool if it was a fear instead of a slow tho. Ability 3: On the complete opposite side of ability design, we have her 3 which does no dmg(even with the dumbest of max shields and power strength build), drains your already nonexistent shields so that you can hear the annoying "shields depleted" sound EVEN MORE!!, and cc's enemies very a very short amount of time(barely more than the time you cc yourself to cast the ability). The only reason this ability is ever worth the 5 energy is because you can get a lol out of imagining DEMeggan in the sound studio making this recording. New ability: Valkyr screams at a frequency that interrupts shields and abilities for a short duration. Valkyr should be good against corpus, but she has literally no way of dealing with nullifiers when she is in hysteria(i hate nullifies and so does everyone that plays this game) except with primed reach on her equipped melee weapon(which i don't have yet and alot of people don't). We need frames that can actually deal with nullifiers. Ability 4: Remains mostly the same, but with a few changes. Dmg reduction instead of dmg immunity her natural armor + passive armor + hysteria dmg reduction should make her plenty tanky and should scale really well into high lvl thanks to her passive specifically. Right now valkyr uses hysteria too passively because once you activate it you are safe and nothing can kill you. by making it a high % dmg reduction instead, she will need to be much more active since you can still be killed unless you start scratching people to get health. Obviously, her 4 needs to be changed to an instant activation. Dying because hysteria has an hour long cast time is NOT fun, and runs counter to how it should work. You shouldn't have to run away behind a corner and cast your ult before coming out to fight like you're changing into your "hero costume". You should run straight into a group of enemies, pounce on their face and start ripping them a new one right from the instant you hit 4. Hysteria passive: "spider cat"? when executing a "wall latch" valkyr will dig her claws into the wall allowing her to crawl along the wall for as long as hysteria is active. jumping will cause her to let go of the wall. "ability 1" can be cast while "wall crawling" for an attack on enemies or to jump and latch onto a different location. And that's it for me. I was gonna do rework idea for zephyr where she morphs her little arm wings into full wings like how nidus changes with mutation, but i've been at this post for like 5 hours now. Ty for reading if you made it this far and hope you liked it. I'm sure i have a ton of errors and i will try to correct them when i see them. Edited December 31, 2017 by Betsill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyia Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 (edited) On 12/30/2017 at 10:39 PM, Betsill said: Valkyr: My all time most used warframe according to my profile. A really fun frame with a cool concept. She has invulnerability for days and ridiculous dmg to anything she can scratch with the clawsm which TBF is alot of things cause DE want's melee to be usefull lol. Aside from her very disappointing Prime visuals(i own all prime frames and she's not only the only frame i use her default skin on, but she's the only one i've even considered doing so) #iwantatail #gersemicannon? #aladvexperimentedonprimetoo? #biggestdisapointment but i digress. Her problem is that she is way to limited in hysteria while also being way to powerful. Stats: this is the only frame that i think needs a stat change as well are ability changes Current stats HP: 300 shield: 150 armor: 600 energy: 100 New stats HP: 500 Shield: 000 armor: 600 energy: 100 Prime stat changes will remain the same. Obviously the actually values can be changed as needed. Right now and since her creation, valkyrs shields are nothing but a nuisance. If there was an option to turn off the "shield depleted" noise in the options i would be cause her shields get depleted every 3 seconds. I think that valkyr should have been the first "no shield" frame, but it was to bold of a design choice back then so they just went with "you technically have a shield... but you really don't". Now that inaros and nidus have "led the charge" so to speak, it's time that valkyr joins them. Passive: Oh wow i never realized this was her passive. I never get knocked down because Im cc immune in hysteria and i never have touchdown delay because i always slide when i hit the ground on all my frames lol. This passive is interesting, even if it is worthless, especially on her. New passive: "berserk" Valkyr gains ability strength, armor, and attach speed stacking up to X% based on dmg she receives. Ability 1: ripline feels really bad to use and has little to no use. Even if it was made to instance cast and it was fixed. the dmg, cc, and mobility are still far too lacking. The only way i think this ability could be kept is 1. it rips enemies limbs off. like regardless of lvl it pulls their limbs off and the enemy is left to deal with their new situation as an amputee. 2. It pulls enemies instantly, and pulls them directly too you where you can melee them for a guaranteed finisher. Otherwise, New ability: "definitely not landslide" valkyr pounces in a target direction. If she comes into contact with an enemy she knocks them over and performs a finisher. if she hits a wall she will automatically perform a wall latch(this is very much a possibly crazy idea, but will be expanded upon in "hysteria"). Ability 2: No changes needed. A wonderful ability IMO It would be really cool if it was a fear instead of a slow tho. Ability 3: On the complete opposite side of ability design, we have her 3 which does no dmg(even with the dumbest of max shields and power strength build), drains your already nonexistent shields so that you can hear the annoying "shields depleted" sound EVEN MORE!!, and cc's enemies very a very short amount of time(barely more than the time you cc yourself to cast the ability). The only reason this ability is ever worth the 5 energy is because you can get a lol out of imagining DEMeggan in the sound studio making this recording. New ability: Valkyr screams at a frequency that interrupts shields and abilities for a short duration. Valkyr should be good against corpus, but she has literally no way of dealing with nullifiers when she is in hysteria(i hate nullifies and so does everyone that plays this game) except with primed reach on her equipped melee weapon(which i don't have yet and alot of people don't). We need frames that can actually deal with nullifiers. Ability 4: Remains mostly the same, but with a few changes. Dmg reduction instead of dmg immunity her natural armor + passive armor + hysteria dmg reduction should make her plenty tanky and should scale really well into high lvl thanks to her passive specifically. Right now valkyr uses hysteria too passively because once you activate it you are safe and nothing can kill you. by making it a high % dmg reduction instead, she will need to be much more active since you can still be killed unless you start scratching people to get health. Obviously, her 4 needs to be changed to an instant activation. Dying because hysteria has an hour long cast time is NOT fun, and runs counter to how it should work. You shouldn't have to run away behind a corner and cast your ult before coming out to fight like you're changing into your "hero costume". You should run straight into a group of enemies, pounce on their face and start ripping them a new one right from the instant you hit 4. Hysteria passive: "spider cat"? when executing a "wall latch" valkyr will dig her claws into the wall allowing her to crawl along the wall for as long as hysteria is active. jumping will cause her to let go of the wall. "ability 1" can be cast while "wall crawling" for an attack on enemies or to jump and latch onto a different location. And that's it for me. I was gonna do rework idea for zephyr where she morphs her little arm wings into full wings like how nidus changes with mutation, but i've been at this post for like 5 hours now. Ty for reading if you made it this far and hope you liked it. I'm sure i have a ton of errors and i will try to correct them when i see them. As Valkyr/Prime is my main frame, I've put some thought recently into 'reworking' her. She's by far the most fun frame to play but there ARE times where the long-lasting invincibility can become a bit zzzzzzzz. So that said, my own personal thoughts on changing her. I completely agree on removing her shield. 150 shield at anything above level ~25 content is nothing other than a 0.5s hindrance on being able to make use of Rage, so simply removing that shield completely and adding an extra 150 base HP (at level 30) makes much more sense to me. Valkyr is a berserker and a shield to protect themselves from damage makes little sense for a berserker. Passive: As is, her passive is actually decent outside of a Hysteria build. However FOR a Hysteria build her passive essentially doesn't exist. With that said, with these ideas for her rework I would completely leave her passive untouched as it would be a huge benefit for the 'new' Valkyr as it would allow her to completely ignore Handspring and other such mods. 1 - Rip Line: The biggest letdown in Valkyr's kit. While it is (very occasionally) useful for certain situations to pull a threatening enemy away from a teammate in danger, the vast majority of the time you'll only be using it to either save yourself from falling down a cliff from a failed bullet jump or to giggle at the hilarious ragdoll physics it throws enemies into. As such, this is the ability of hers that needs a complete rework. Change - Gap Closer/Leap/Pounce: Yes, I'm well aware that making her 1 a leap/pounce would make Hysterial Assault utterly pointless, and I'm okay with that. That augment in and of itself has very limited use on only specific builds, as a typical DPS or tank Valkyr build will have little or even negative range, thereby limiting the usefulness of the augment greatly. In order to not put this ability in the same position of Hysterial Assault one of a few routes could be taken. Firstly, the base range could be made extremely large (45-50m perhaps) so that even with negative range it would still be useful. Although that could also lead to hilarious 200% range builds allowing Valkyr to leap from one side of the map to another. For this reason I think making the leap a flat 25 or 30 meter range that is NOT affected by Range would be a better idea. While having it not be impacted by Range would be a bit awkward given how the ability works, I believe that it would be the safer option. 2 - Warcry: As Valkyr currently is there is absolutely nothing wrong with this ability. It is easily her best overall skill and its augment is damn near perfection. I do have something to discuss in regards to changing it though. However, as the reason for this move being changed is due to Hysteria being changed I will come back to this afterwards. 3 - Paralysis: Paralysis is an interesting move. In certain situations it's absolutely amazing, however the situations where that is true are only going to pop up occasionally. For a DPS Valkyr its primary use is to open up difficult enemies to a prompted finisher, however because of how much damage Valkyr is capable of inflicting with Hysteria (especially with slide attacks or ground finishers on downed enemies) it is more often than not unnecessary to use this skill to quickly and efficiently kill high tier enemies such as high level Corrupted Bombard and Heavy Gunner enemies. Personally, I get the most use of this move against Nox enemies as they are only weak to headshots and it is much easier to simply execute a prompted finisher than try and headshot them within Hysteria. That said, however, I do not believe this ability needs a rework. It's perfectly fine for it to be a more situational skill. It simply needs a few small tweaks. Change - Quicker Animation + Slightly Longer CC/Fear: The only issue Paralysis has is that its animation lasts nearly as long as the CC, and that the CC duration does not scale off of Strength. I would change the animation from the "I'M ANGRY" exaggerated foot slam that she has to a much quicker stomp (cut the animation time in half or even by two thirds). Keeping the current CC duration as base is perfect, however it should also scale moderately off of Strength. Not so vastly that a 200% Strength build can CC for 10 seconds or something crazy, as she is not a CC frame. However a solid 4 second fear would be good. 4 - Hysteria: Hysteria is Valkyr's most fun ability in my opinion, however it is also the most commonly brought up point on things about her that should be changed, and I agree. Hysteria as is is an extremely good skill; the per second energy drain is very small, it provides complete CC immunity (barring Mutalist Moa tar pool slows and Eximus slow auras) and gives her a massive damaging melee weapon with innate 5% lifesteal and excellent critical stats. Now I do not believe that she is overpowered, per se. However I do believe that her kit for both a DPS and tank build is too heavily reliant on Hysteria (yes I know Warcry builds exist too) because her ulti is simply that ridiculously good. Change - Remove Invincibility, add flat Damage Reduction (NOT armor): The damage/CC immunity given by Hysteria currently makes her a bit too easily able to get her damage off, with very little danger to herself. While her actual attacks fit her berserker theme, this does not. It also is the driving reason that her Hysteria is 'too much' of her kit, as Hysteria probably makes up roughly 50% of her kit, with Warcry making up 45%, and Rip Line and Paralysis making up the other 5% together. So I would completely remove her CC immunity as well as the invincibility. The invincibility, however, would be replaced with a flat damage reduction value. This value would scale off of Strength linearly (i.e. 200% Strength would double the value given at base). Personally, I think having the base value be 40% flat damage reduction would be perfect. This would mean that at 200% Strength she would have 80% damage reduction. However while Hysteria was active she would also lose the armor buff from Warcry (she would still keep the melee attack speed buff however) in order to prevent these two buffs from stacking on one another and effectively keeping her at her immortal status like she currently has. I believe that between 80% damage reduction and the 5% lifesteal innate to Hysteria that it would give Valkyr good survivability that, combined with her extremely high damage would keep her viable in high level content without making her over the top. If necessary she could also lose the benefit of her baseline armor during Hysteria as well if it is found that she is still too tanky, but that would be left up to testing and patch changes. I am aware that this change would essentially kill tank Valkyr, as that build revolves solely on Duration and wouldn't have nearly as much Strength as a DPS Valkyr and would therefore have a lower damage reduction value. However, I am okay with this. Valkyr is not a tank; she is a DPS, berserker themed frame. She should reflect that, and a tank is the last thing that comes to mind when I think of a berserker. Warcry (again): As mentioned above, her Warcry would have only one thing changed about it with this 'rework' of Valkyr. While in Hysteria she would lose the bonus armor that this buff gives, however, she would still retain the melee attack speed increase. Any allies affected by Hysteria would keep the bonus armor while Valkyr was in Hysteria, although this may prove difficult to code. If that were to be the case then allies would also lose the bonus armor while Valkyr was in Hysteria. There it is, one massive wall of text later. Everything I think should be changed about Valkyr/Prime in order to make her better than she currently is. While I'm sure that there are going to be some people that may think this is just one fancy excuse for me to nerf her, it's anything but. I love Valkyr more than any other frame in this game and have from the first time I played her. I want nothing but her to be as good as possible, and as she currently is it's far too easy for her to get flak for her full damage/CC immunity in Hysteria while half of her kit (her 1 and 3) are deemed as near-worthless. Edited January 2, 2018 by HeiAtzfel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsill Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, HeiAtzfel said: I completely agree on removing her shield. 150 shield at anything above level ~25 content is nothing other than a 0.5s hindrance on being able to make use of Rage, so simply removing that shield completely and adding an extra 150 base HP (at level 30) makes much more sense to me. Valkyr is a berserker and a shield to protect themselves from damage makes little sense for a berserker. Passive: As is, her passive is actually decent outside of a Hysteria build. However FOR a Hysteria build her passive essentially doesn't exist. With that said, with these ideas for her rework I would completely leave her passive untouched as it would be a huge benefit for the 'new' Valkyr as it would allow her to completely ignore Handspring and other such mods. The numbers would just have to be worked out, since unlike nidus and inaros, valkyr doesn't have healing outside of hysteria. I'm leaning towards thinking she may need something 200-300 more base HP to keep her from becoming "pop hysteria every 3 seconds or you die". Although, she kinda works that way right now, and if she have hysteria cast made instant it would be alot less frustrating than she is now IMO. The reason i want to change her passive is 1. I want frames to have actual power/meaning in their passives like nidus, inaros, limbo, octavia, harrow etc(aka new frames) 2. At best you can say that her passive is "situationally ok", the second half is 100% useless, but if you are in heavy cc missions and not in hysteria(for some reason) then it can be kinda ok. 3. This will give her much needed scaling and thematic depth. By giveing her nothing but a flat % dmg reduction + armor for her only survivablility you will only have a certain lvl where she is "just right". anthing lower than that lvl she is essentially invulnerable and anything after that she can't stay alive. If she scales with the dmg she takes then she scales with the enemies she's fighting similar to nidus and chroma. Quote While having it not be impacted by Range would be a bit awkward given how the ability works, I believe that it would be the safer option. They could also just soft/hard cap it. I wouldn't mind a flat range tho cause all my valkyr builds have negative range XD Quote 3 - Paralysis: Paralysis is an interesting move. In certain situations it's absolutely amazing, however the situations where that is true are only going to pop up occasionally. For a DPS Valkyr its primary use is to open up difficult enemies to a prompted finisher, however because of how much damage Valkyr is capable of inflicting with Hysteria (especially with slide attacks or ground finishers on downed enemies) it is more often than not unnecessary to use this skill to quickly and efficiently kill high tier enemies such as high level Corrupted Bombard and Heavy Gunner enemies. Personally, I get the most use of this move against Nox enemies as they are only weak to headshots and it is much easier to simply execute a prompted finisher than try and headshot them within Hysteria. That said, however, I do not believe this ability needs a rework. It's perfectly fine for it to be a more situational skill. It simply needs a few small tweaks. Except the finisher part is just redundant at best since 1. you don't want waste time using a finisher on a trash mob(which you will do on accident if you paralyse a big group) and 2. Difficult mobs can be finished by just holding down the attack button anyway. Plus idk how much it would cost if she wasn't buring through shields. Quote Change - Remove Invincibility, add flat Damage Reduction (NOT armor): The damage/CC immunity given by Hysteria currently makes her a bit too easily able to get her damage off, with very little danger to herself. While her actual attacks fit her berserker theme, this does not. It also is the driving reason that her Hysteria is 'too much' of her kit, as Hysteria probably makes up roughly 50% of her kit, with Warcry making up 45%, and Rip Line and Paralysis making up the other 5% together. So I would completely remove her CC immunity as well as the invincibility. The invincibility, however, would be replaced with a flat damage reduction value. This value would scale off of Strength linearly (i.e. 200% Strength would double the value given at base). Personally, I think having the base value be 40% flat damage reduction would be perfect. This would mean that at 200% Strength she would have 80% damage reduction. However while Hysteria was active she would also lose the armor buff from Warcry (she would still keep the melee attack speed buff however) in order to prevent these two buffs from stacking on one another and effectively keeping her at her immortal status like she currently has. I believe that between 80% damage reduction and the 5% lifesteal innate to Hysteria that it would give Valkyr good survivability that, combined with her extremely high damage would keep her viable in high level content without making her over the top. If necessary she could also lose the benefit of her baseline armor during Hysteria as well if it is found that she is still too tanky, but that would be left up to testing and patch changes. I am aware that this change would essentially kill tank Valkyr, as that build revolves solely on Duration and wouldn't have nearly as much Strength as a DPS Valkyr and would therefore have a lower damage reduction value. However, I am okay with this. Valkyr is not a tank; she is a DPS, berserker themed frame. She should reflect that, and a tank is the last thing that comes to mind when I think of a berserker. I think you are very much underestimating how drastically both her QoL and effectiveness would be gutted by removing CC immunity. Sure you might be able to make use of her currently worthless passive, but at the cost of never being able play her on high lvl 40+ because even if you can survive the enemies now that you aren't invulnerable, you will cease to function. There are quite a few frames that have dmg reduction and/or cc immunity that don't require you to drop your weapons and go into melee range. She straight up MUST have CC immunity. Enemies have FAR to much hard CC at melee range that will lock you down permanently. I also think you are overestimating the power of dmg reduction. Just for reference, my mesa has 95% dmg reduction on her 3(with 215% strength) and she can still shoot guns from range(away from most of the dmg and almost all CC). Rhino can 100% ingore a certain amount of dmg and CC for that same amount and shoot weapons as well. Wukong is essentially immortal without cc immunity BUT he can shoot guns and can star far away from the CC.Also, none of the frames listed have to keep killing/attacking enemies to maintain themselves(and certainly not in melee range). Another thing to consider is that if you lose the invulnerability, you also lose 2 mod slots that you could use ability stats, since now you MUST invest in tank stats(health and armor) to make up for the loss of invulnerability. I like this change since i feel like her high armor is completely wasted and except to keep her alive during her long AF hysteria animation(which it fails to do WAY to often). Think about it this way. My mesa with lifestrike has 95% dmg reduction and 20% lifesteal AND she can swap to guns(really damn strong ones rivaling hysteria for dmg except with range). Quote Warcry (again): As mentioned above, her Warcry would have only one thing changed about it with this 'rework' of Valkyr. While in Hysteria she would lose the bonus armor that this buff gives, however, she would still retain the melee attack speed increase. Any allies affected by Hysteria would keep the bonus armor while Valkyr was in Hysteria, although this may prove difficult to code. If that were to be the case then allies would also lose the bonus armor while Valkyr was in Hysteria. I see no reason for her to not get the armor buff in hysteria. Thank you for the feedback though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyia Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 4 minutes ago, Betsill said: I think you are very much underestimating how drastically both her QoL and effectiveness would be gutted by removing CC immunity. Sure you might be able to make use of her currently worthless passive, but at the cost of never being able play her on high lvl 40+ because even if you can survive the enemies now that you aren't invulnerable, you will cease to function. There are quite a few frames that have dmg reduction and/or cc immunity that don't require you to drop your weapons and go into melee range. She straight up MUST have CC immunity. Enemies have FAR to much hard CC at melee range that will lock you down permanently. I also think you are overestimating the power of dmg reduction. Just for reference, my mesa has 95% dmg reduction on her 3(with 215% strength) and she can still shoot guns from range(away from most of the dmg and almost all CC). Rhino can 100% ingore a certain amount of dmg and CC for that same amount and shoot weapons as well. Wukong is essentially immortal without cc immunity BUT he can shoot guns and can star far away from the CC.Also, none of the frames listed have to keep killing/attacking enemies to maintain themselves(and certainly not in melee range). Another thing to consider is that if you lose the invulnerability, you also lose 2 mod slots that you could use ability stats, since now you MUST invest in tank stats(health and armor) to make up for the loss of invulnerability. I like this change since i feel like her high armor is completely wasted and except to keep her alive during her long AF hysteria animation(which it fails to do WAY to often). Think about it this way. My mesa with lifestrike has 95% dmg reduction and 20% lifesteal AND she can swap to guns(really damn strong ones rivaling hysteria for dmg except with range). Firstly, I'm well aware of how removing her CC immunity would impact her. For the most part, knockdowns are telegraphed rather hard (Moa foot stomp, Bombard/Heavy Gunner fist slam) so it's rather easy to merely take a half second to jump up and avoid it altogether. For the rest of it, well, that's what her passive is for. Frames like Excalibur slot mods like Handspring to deal with CC when they can't manually avoid it. Valkyr's passive allows her to get that for free and I find myself wishing I had it on other frames when I F*** up and get hit by CC. And yes, while there may be other frames that can reduce their incoming damage by large amounts without forcing you into melee range, Valkyr is a pure melee frame. What exactly do you want from her? Hysteria is supposed to be her 'blind rage' state truly fitting of a berserker, allowing her to shrug off her wounds and deal immense amounts of damage. So being a berserker AND a melee frame it makes perfect sense that this would 'force' her into melee range. As for Mesa, yes her Shatter Shield gives her 95% damage reduction. However, she has no form of healing whatsoever outside of a melee weapon with Lifestrike or the Furis with Winds of Purity. Therefore the 95% damage reduction on her Shatter Shield is justifiable, especially considering she has such little armor that she may as well have none. Valkyr doesn't have this drawback; her Hysteria has innate 5% lifesteal. And while that number is small it's more than enough to return her to full HP in 1-2, maybe 3 regular slashes, or a single slide attack/finisher due to the sheer amount of damage she's dealing with those attacks. It's a perfectly fair trade off. Wukong? Yes, he is effecively immortal while being able to fire his ranged weapons. However, do you know what he doesn't have? Valkyr's amount of raw damage. Wukong is a tank and I would be upset if Valkyr was able to be more difficult to kill than him. As for the having to take health and armor mods; firstly you should ALWAYS be taking Vitality on Valkyr regardles as she makes such excellent use of Rage. Steel Fiber is a very common take on her as well, however Hysteria builds often opt to not take it and in this reworked Valkyr of mine that would remain true, as you would already have plenty of sustain through your high damage reduction and innate lifesteal. One final note about the Lifestrike Mesa comment. Yes, that is true. However Lifestrike's lifesteal is pretty evently comparable to Hysteria's as Hysteria may have lower lifesteal percentage, but its higher damage makes it pretty even. Also, Shatter Shield doesn't work on melee attacks. So you're potentially putting yourself at risk of SS not working for you whatsoever in this situation. Something Valkyr wouldn't have to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw1996 Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 37 minutes ago, Betsill said: Another thing to consider is that if you lose the invulnerability, you also lose 2 mod slots that you could use ability stats, since now you MUST invest in tank stats(health and armor) to make up for the loss of invulnerability. The biggest issue with no Invincibility is One shots. There's always that moment where you can get one shotted in this game (Like fighting lvl 100 Kela de thayem) so having Invincibility helps with that rough Situation. Also without Invincibility, Reviving Teammates that's being gunned down by a horde of high level enemies would be a lot harder since they can do a lot of damage to you unless you are Chroma and Valkyr only have 740 health. Nidus have 90% damage reduction with his Parasitic Link but Ravenous is what makes him hard to kill since damage reduction can take care of so much damage at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyia Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, Shaw1996 said: The biggest issue with no Invincibility is One shots. There's always that moment where you can get one shotted in this game (Like fighting lvl 100 Kela de thayem) so having Invincibility helps with that rough Situation. Also without Invincibility, Reviving Teammates that's being gunned down by a horde of high level enemies would be a lot harder since they can do a lot of damage to you unless you are Chroma and Valkyr only have 740 health. Nidus have 90% damage reduction with his Parasitic Link but Ravenous is what makes him hard to kill since damage reduction can take care of so much damage at once. Sure, there will be situations that may pop up where there's simply too many dangerous enemies to rezz a teammate even with extremely high damage reduction. But how is that a problem? It isn't entirely fair that Valkyr gets to just be completely immune to the threat those enemies face and revive her downed teammates. Thus why imo a high percentage damage reduction is better, because it still gives her good survivability especially with Hysteria's innate lifesteal but doesn't let her 'cheat' to a degree. Valkyr shouldn't be a frame that gets to save someone from their mistakes no matter how badly they #*($%%@ up by being completely immortal and being able to rezz them no matter what, especially seeing as she's a DPS and not a tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draemoris Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, Betsill said: I think you are very much underestimating how drastically both her QoL and effectiveness would be gutted by removing CC immunity. Sure you might be able to make use of her currently worthless passive, but at the cost of never being able play her on high lvl 40+ because even if you can survive the enemies now that you aren't invulnerable, you will cease to function. There are quite a few frames that have dmg reduction and/or cc immunity that don't require you to drop your weapons and go into melee range. She straight up MUST have CC immunity. Enemies have FAR to much hard CC at melee range that will lock you down permanently. I also think you are overestimating the power of dmg reduction. Just for reference, my mesa has 95% dmg reduction on her 3(with 215% strength) and she can still shoot guns from range(away from most of the dmg and almost all CC). Rhino can 100% ingore a certain amount of dmg and CC for that same amount and shoot weapons as well. Wukong is essentially immortal without cc immunity BUT he can shoot guns and can star far away from the CC.Also, none of the frames listed have to keep killing/attacking enemies to maintain themselves(and certainly not in melee range). Another thing to consider is that if you lose the invulnerability, you also lose 2 mod slots that you could use ability stats, since now you MUST invest in tank stats(health and armor) to make up for the loss of invulnerability. I like this change since i feel like her high armor is completely wasted and except to keep her alive during her long AF hysteria animation(which it fails to do WAY to often). Think about it this way. My mesa with lifestrike has 95% dmg reduction and 20% lifesteal AND she can swap to guns(really damn strong ones rivaling hysteria for dmg except with range). I see no reason for her to not get the armor buff in hysteria. Thank you for the feedback though She can handle level 40+ enemies just fine, just as any other frame would in fact.. Level 40 enemies are an absolute breeze for any frame if properly modded. At level 40 you aren't going to encounter many issues. Also you're comparing Valkyr to proper tank frames, Valkyr is capable of outputting much more damage than Rhino or Wukong. She isn't a true tank. "Enemies have FAR to much hard CC at melee range that will lock you down permanently." Level 40 enemies with far too much CC? Hardly problematic because they're still level 40 enemies and simply just don't present enough of a threat to matter, that sounds more like a player issue than a frame issue if you're struggling with level 40s. "Another thing to consider is that if you lose the invulnerability, you also lose 2 mod slots that you could use ability stats, since now you MUST invest in tank stats(health and armor) to make up for the loss of invulnerability." You play without Vitality? Might be why those level 40s kill you so quickly if you get "perma CC'd" I'm surprised you don't have issues with toxin damage either, or perhaps you do and you just deal with it. But they're level 40s, they shouldn't be an issue at any point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draemoris Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Shaw1996 said: The biggest issue with no Invincibility is One shots. There's always that moment where you can get one shotted in this game (Like fighting lvl 100 Kela de thayem) so having Invincibility helps with that rough Situation. Also without Invincibility, Reviving Teammates that's being gunned down by a horde of high level enemies would be a lot harder since they can do a lot of damage to you unless you are Chroma and Valkyr only have 740 health. Nidus have 90% damage reduction with his Parasitic Link but Ravenous is what makes him hard to kill since damage reduction can take care of so much damage at once. Immunity does get you through those one shots for sure, but 90-95% flat DR would still allow Valkyr to sit and revive someone. Also I play Nidus a fair bit and frankly, I'd take Parasitic link over Ravenous. Against level 40 enemies, with or without lifestrike he can have enough sustainability to survive from his passive HP regen alone when stacked with Link. Remember, these are level 40 enemies we're talking about here. Parasitic Link is what makes him hard to kill, not Ravenous. Ravenous merely amplifies that difficulty. If you were to Link an enemy while getting shot at by an enemy with an actual threatening amount of damage, it will keep you alive longer than bonus HP regen. As you said, 1 shots are a thing and I'd much rather take 90% DR over bonus HP regen. Can't regen HP if you're getting 1 shot. Though one should never really compare HP regen (Sustainability) over DR, especially 90% DR (Despite the fact that I did for the sake of trying to explain which I personally would prefer if I had to choose one or the other). Though these two abilities should be used together, not seperate. They both have different ways of keeping Nidus alive and are meant to work together should he need them. Edited January 3, 2018 by Numinex12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw1996 Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 4 minutes ago, Numinex12 said: Immunity does get you through those one shots for sure, but 90-95% flat DR would still allow Valkyr to sit and revive someone. Also I play Nidus a fair bit and frankly, I'd take Parasitic link over Ravenous. Against level 40 enemies, with or without lifestrike he can have enough sustainability to survive from his passive HP regen alone when stacked with Link. Remember, these are level 40 enemies we're talking about here. Parasitic Link is what makes him hard to kill, not Ravenous. Ravenous merely amplifies that difficulty. If you were to Link an enemy while getting shot at by an enemy with an actual threatening amount of damage, it will keep you alive longer than bonus HP regen. As you said, 1 shots are a thing and I'd much rather take 90% DR over bonus HP regen. Can't regen HP if you're getting 1 shot. I would never compare HP regen (Sustainability) over DR, especially 90% DR. Though these two abilities should be used together, not seperate. They both have different ways of keeping Nidus alive and are meant to work together should he need them. Yeah lvl 40s, Parasitic Link would be enough but lvl 100 and over, both Ravenous and Parasitic Link would be better. The only enemies that got the damage of lvl 80 - 100 enemies but in the lvl 40 - 45 range is T4 Corrupted (Aten - Mot). Grineer, not so much . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draemoris Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, Shaw1996 said: Yeah lvl 40s, Parasitic Link would be enough but lvl 100 and over, both Ravenous and Parasitic Link would be better. The only enemies that got the damage of lvl 80 - 100 enemies but in the lvl 40 - 45 range is T4 Corrupted (Aten - Mot). Grineer, not so much . I wholeheartedly agree and that's why I said they should be used together. Nidus has imo one of the most fluid kits to date, his abilities should be used as such. The OP was using level 40 enemies as the comparison point. That's why I brought those up. If this was level 100 enemies we were speaking of then I wouldn't have bothered bringing up level 40s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsill Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 8 minutes ago, HeiAtzfel said: Firstly, I'm well aware of how removing her CC immunity would impact her. For the most part, knockdowns are telegraphed rather hard (Moa foot stomp, Bombard/Heavy Gunner fist slam) so it's rather easy to merely take a half second to jump up and avoid it altogether. For the rest of it, well, that's what her passive is for. Frames like Excalibur slot mods like Handspring to deal with CC when they can't manually avoid it. Valkyr's passive allows her to get that for free and I find myself wishing I had it on other frames when I F*** up and get hit by CC. And yes, while there may be other frames that can reduce their incoming damage by large amounts without forcing you into melee range, Valkyr is a pure melee frame. I really don't think you are aware. I'm kinda curious what lvl you are? because you sound like your describing low lvl content, since lvl 40+ on endless mission you are rarely surrounded by less than 3 CC enemies at once. just talking about infested, it's not uncommon to fight with 3-4 moa shock-waves going off at once + 2-3 ancient hooks + eximus enemies emitting fire waves. Now also consider that hard CC isn't the only thing you are vulnerable to. Now you have to worry about disruptor ancients and other magnetic proc sources sapping your energy all at once and leach eximus enemies are even worse now because you cant single them out because you haven't left the ground in the past 10 seconds. Corpus are even worse! forget about fighting a bursas with valkyr ever again. Excal is ranged valyr isn't. He also have a massive AOE blind(150% more range and like 4-5 times longer cc duration(valkyr can't increase her cc duration) at base compaired to valkyr paralisis) that stops all enemies from attacking and gives his ranged exalted blade finisher dmg. Quote What exactly do you want from her? Hysteria is supposed to be her 'blind rage' state truly fitting of a berserker, allowing her to shrug off her wounds and deal immense amounts of damage. So being a berserker AND a melee frame it makes perfect sense that this would 'force' her into melee range. You seem to misunderstand me. I wasn't bringing up that all those other frames have more dmg resist and can use guns "therefore" valkyr should too. I'm saying that if a frame is ranged vs a frame that is melee(aka will take much more dmg AND CC) then you should have equal or more resistances not less. I can't find stats on exactly how dmg resist is calculated with armor, but if it strait up stacks then valkyr with 80% dmg reduction and just over 1400 armor should have about the same dmg resistance(which this doesn't include the utiltiy reflecting dmg(which staggers enemies even without the augment) AND resists all projectile CC AND we are ignoring that she is staying at range(so has significantly less dmg coming at her) AND she can jam the weapons of enemies that would otherwise be shooting at her) of mesa with shatter shield. There is just a ton of reasons why you would never pick valkyr over any other frame with just dmg resistance even if it didn't lock you into melee. Quote As for Mesa, yes her Shatter Shield gives her 95% damage reduction. However, she has no form of healing whatsoever outside of a melee weapon with Lifestrike or the Furis with Winds of Purity. Therefore the 95% damage reduction on her Shatter Shield is justifiable, especially considering she has such little armor that she may as well have none. Valkyr doesn't have this drawback; her Hysteria has innate 5% lifesteal. And while that number is small it's more than enough to return her to full HP in 1-2, maybe 3 regular slashes, or a single slide attack/finisher due to the sheer amount of damage she's dealing with those attacks. It's a perfectly fair trade off. She could also use hema, hirudo, Medi-ray, any of the hexis mods or weapons, any steel meridian mods or weapons, any sancti mods weapons, Heal station, or team health restore(easy to use since shes at range and probably not moving). Not to mention healing teammates with or without rejuvenation. I could probably see 80% dmg reduction being ok for by itself, but only if she kept CC imunity and she would still need a way to scale her resistance higher or she will have a VERY hard time with enemies 100+ or enemies like bosses where she can't life steal. Quote Wukong? Yes, he is effecively immortal while being able to fire his ranged weapons. However, do you know what he doesn't have? Valkyr's amount of raw damage. Wukong is a tank and I would be upset if Valkyr was able to be more difficult to kill than him. As for the having to take health and armor mods; firstly you should ALWAYS be taking Vitality on Valkyr regardles as she makes such excellent use of Rage. Steel Fiber is a very common take on her as well, however Hysteria builds often opt to not take it and in this reworked Valkyr of mine that would remain true, as you would already have plenty of sustain through your high damage reduction and innate lifesteal. That depends on what weapon he has lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsill Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Shaw1996 said: The biggest issue with no Invincibility is One shots. There's always that moment where you can get one shotted in this game (Like fighting lvl 100 Kela de thayem) so having Invincibility helps with that rough Situation. Also without Invincibility, Reviving Teammates that's being gunned down by a horde of high level enemies would be a lot harder since they can do a lot of damage to you unless you are Chroma and Valkyr only have 740 health. Nidus have 90% damage reduction with his Parasitic Link but Ravenous is what makes him hard to kill since damage reduction can take care of so much damage at once. Agreed, that's why IMO if you removed her invulnerability you have to give her really high resistance and/or a way to scale her resistance so she can at least not be afraid to die in less that 3 seconds if she's not life-stealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draemoris Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 4 minutes ago, Betsill said: I really don't think you are aware. I'm kinda curious what lvl you are? because you sound like your describing low lvl content, since lvl 40+ on endless mission you are rarely surrounded by less than 3 CC enemies at once. just talking about infested, it's not uncommon to fight with 3-4 moa shock-waves going off at once + 2-3 ancient hooks + eximus enemies emitting fire waves. Now also consider that hard CC isn't the only thing you are vulnerable to. Now you have to worry about disruptor ancients and other magnetic proc sources sapping your energy all at once and leach eximus enemies are even worse now because you cant single them out because you haven't left the ground in the past 10 seconds. Corpus are even worse! forget about fighting a bursas with valkyr ever again. Excal is ranged valyr isn't. He also have a massive AOE blind(150% more range and like 4-5 times longer cc duration(valkyr can't increase her cc duration) at base compaired to valkyr paralisis) that stops all enemies from attacking and gives his ranged exalted blade finisher dmg. You seem to misunderstand me. I wasn't bringing up that all those other frames have more dmg resist and can use guns "therefore" valkyr should too. I'm saying that if a frame is ranged vs a frame that is melee(aka will take much more dmg AND CC) then you should have equal or more resistances not less. I can't find stats on exactly how dmg resist is calculated with armor, but if it strait up stacks then valkyr with 80% dmg reduction and just over 1400 armor should have about the same dmg resistance(which this doesn't include the utiltiy reflecting dmg(which staggers enemies even without the augment) AND resists all projectile CC AND we are ignoring that she is staying at range(so has significantly less dmg coming at her) AND she can jam the weapons of enemies that would otherwise be shooting at her) of mesa with shatter shield. There is just a ton of reasons why you would never pick valkyr over any other frame with just dmg resistance even if it didn't lock you into melee. She could also use hema, hirudo, Medi-ray, any of the hexis mods or weapons, any steel meridian mods or weapons, any sancti mods weapons, Heal station, or team health restore(easy to use since shes at range and probably not moving). Not to mention healing teammates with or without rejuvenation. I could probably see 80% dmg reduction being ok for by itself, but only if she kept CC imunity and she would still need a way to scale her resistance higher or she will have a VERY hard time with enemies 100+ or enemies like bosses where she can't life steal. That depends on what weapon he has lol We actively run the higher level sorties for focus farming. Aka higher than level 40 enemies. You're the one who brought level 40 enemies to the mix, or are you failing to recall that? I actually just finished saying that level 40 enemies are a BREEZE, why on earth would we talk about high level content and then act like level 40 is high level when we already spent time saying it is NOT high level. Not even sorties are high level, they are the highest people NORMALLY would have to deal with as people don't normally spend an hour in survival missions. But we very much can and do if we feel like it. We spent nearly 2 hours in a T4 fissure merely using Nekros and Valkyr in a 2-man group. I don't understand how you could use level 40 enemies as examples, then act as if we were the ones who did so. As I said, level 40 enemies are a joke and when we play we spend over an hour on survival runs for the sake of doing so because it's not very difficult. Read when someone posts something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsill Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Numinex12 said: She can handle level 40+ enemies just fine, just as any other frame would in fact.. Level 40 enemies are an absolute breeze for any frame if properly modded. At level 40 you aren't going to encounter many issues. Also you're comparing Valkyr to proper tank frames, Valkyr is capable of outputting much more damage than Rhino or Wukong. She isn't a true tank. I never said she couldn't. In fact she is quite a bit overkill at lvl 40 and picking her that low lvl is just silly aside from just wanting to play her. Her dmg is worthless that low, since frames like mag, ember, banshee etc can also insta kill the enemies at that lvl, but can do it by the roomful in stead of one at a time. Valkyr is a high lvl content frame and isn't worth bringing until like lvl 70+. I mentioned lvl 40 because that's around the lvl it seems that CC enemies start to ramp up their spawn rates. So at that lvl she won't have a problem dying, she will just start to have a problem staying on her feet. Quote "Enemies have FAR to much hard CC at melee range that will lock you down permanently." Level 40 enemies with far too much CC? Hardly problematic because they're still level 40 enemies and simply just don't present enough of a threat to matter, that sounds more like a player issue than a frame issue if you're struggling with level 40s. see above^ Quote "Another thing to consider is that if you lose the invulnerability, you also lose 2 mod slots that you could use ability stats, since now you MUST invest in tank stats(health and armor) to make up for the loss of invulnerability." You play without Vitality? Might be why those level 40s kill you so quickly if you get "perma CC'd" I'm surprised you don't have issues with toxin damage either, or perhaps you do and you just deal with it. But they're level 40s, they shouldn't be an issue at any point in time. see above^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsill Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Numinex12 said: We actively run the higher level sorties for focus farming. Aka higher than level 40 enemies. You're the one who brought level 40 enemies to the mix, or are you failing to recall that? I actually just finished saying that level 40 enemies are a BREEZE, why on earth would we talk about high level content and then act like level 40 is high level when we already spent time saying it is NOT high level. Not even sorties are high level, they are the highest people NORMALLY would have to deal with as people don't normally spend an hour in survival missions. But we very much can and do if we feel like it. We spent nearly 2 hours in a T4 fissure merely using Nekros and Valkyr in a 2-man group. I don't understand how you could use level 40 enemies as examples, then act as if we were the ones who did so. As I said, level 40 enemies are a joke and when we play we spend over an hour on survival runs for the sake of doing so because it's not very difficult. Read when someone posts something. I will just say this again... Lvl 40 is when CC enemies start to spawn at higher rates. In relation to valkyr not having CC immunity that is important, especially since IMO she's not really worth bringing pre lvl 60 or so. Pls stop strawmaning Edited January 3, 2018 by Betsill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyia Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 13 minutes ago, Betsill said: I really don't think you are aware. I'm kinda curious what lvl you are? because you sound like your describing low lvl content, since lvl 40+ on endless mission you are rarely surrounded by less than 3 CC enemies at once. just talking about infested, it's not uncommon to fight with 3-4 moa shock-waves going off at once + 2-3 ancient hooks + eximus enemies emitting fire waves. Now also consider that hard CC isn't the only thing you are vulnerable to. Now you have to worry about disruptor ancients and other magnetic proc sources sapping your energy all at once and leach eximus enemies are even worse now because you cant single them out because you haven't left the ground in the past 10 seconds. Corpus are even worse! forget about fighting a bursas with valkyr ever again. Excal is ranged valyr isn't. He also have a massive AOE blind(150% more range and like 4-5 times longer cc duration(valkyr can't increase her cc duration) at base compaired to valkyr paralisis) that stops all enemies from attacking and gives his ranged exalted blade finisher dmg. You seem to misunderstand me. I wasn't bringing up that all those other frames have more dmg resist and can use guns "therefore" valkyr should too. I'm saying that if a frame is ranged vs a frame that is melee(aka will take much more dmg AND CC) then you should have equal or more resistances not less. I can't find stats on exactly how dmg resist is calculated with armor, but if it strait up stacks then valkyr with 80% dmg reduction and just over 1400 armor should have about the same dmg resistance(which this doesn't include the utiltiy reflecting dmg(which staggers enemies even without the augment) AND resists all projectile CC AND we are ignoring that she is staying at range(so has significantly less dmg coming at her) AND she can jam the weapons of enemies that would otherwise be shooting at her) of mesa with shatter shield. There is just a ton of reasons why you would never pick valkyr over any other frame with just dmg resistance even if it didn't lock you into melee. She could also use hema, hirudo, Medi-ray, any of the hexis mods or weapons, any steel meridian mods or weapons, any sancti mods weapons, Heal station, or team health restore(easy to use since shes at range and probably not moving). Not to mention healing teammates with or without rejuvenation. I could probably see 80% dmg reduction being ok for by itself, but only if she kept CC imunity and she would still need a way to scale her resistance higher or she will have a VERY hard time with enemies 100+ or enemies like bosses where she can't life steal. That depends on what weapon he has lol 1. That entirely sounds like a player problem, not a frame prolem. Even on level 100 sortie survivals I don't have issues killing high priority enemies in seconds. Take Valkyr's CC immunity away and I don't care; I'm going to have zero issues dealing with them. Ancient Disrupters are only threatening if you're blind and don't see the glowing purple aura to realize that you need to kill them, nor can I remember the last time I had one of them drain my energy. The aura they give off and to surrounding Infested makes for essentially a giant pulsing target that screams "kill me". As for CC, Ancient's hook is extremely easy to dodge because of the delay between them extending their arm and it actually firing out. And again, Moa/Bombard/Gunner slams are EXTREMELY telegraphed and easy to avoid. Seriously, just hit spacebar for a fraction of a second. The only single time Valkyr not having CC immunity would be a problem is the few instances where you're literally swarmed by 20+ enemies all around you, and that's such a wet dream scenario for Valkyr in the first place because one slide and she'll kill most of, if not the entire group. 2. But once again, the raw damage reduction isn't the only thing that comes into play here. You HAVE to take into consideration Hysteria's passive 5% lifesteal as well, because I assure you if you were to give Valkyr 95% damage reduction on Hysteria she may as well still have immunity because that DR combined with Hysteria's lifesteal and she will literally never die. Even at 80% she'll have a difficult time dying so long as she isn't completely IGNORING enemies and simply not attacking them.`As for Mesa, I fail to see why you keep bringing her up. She's a different frame with a different kit. And while I do think her Shatter Shield scaling up to 95% DR is a little bit silly at times, it's the single only thing (in her own kit) keeping her alive. And as such, it's perfectly fair for her to have that. 3. But that's the thing, she doesn't NEED CC immunity. Even as she currently is, that CC immunity is more of a luxury than a necessity. CC in this game is an extremely small threat so long as the player has an active brain and dodges it; as all CC barring Eximus slowing auras is dodgeable by simply moving (i.e. Mutalist Moa tar pools and foot slams, Bombard/Gunner gound slams, Ancient grapples, Bursa knockdowns, etc etc). 4. No, she wouldn't NEED to scale her DR higher than, say, 80%. Because Hysteria has innate 5% lifesteal on her slashes. And even on bosses where you can't deal damage because of invulnerability she can still lifesteal. I don't know exactly why it works, but go fight Ruk and attack him immune parts. Valkyr's HP will still go back up from her slashes despise them dealing no actual damage. Don't ask me, I don't know why it works. Just that it does. 5. No, this comparison is purely Exalted weapon VS Exalted weapon. It's a frame by frame comparison, and Valkyr will do much much more damage than a Wukong will. But once more; Wukong is a tank, Valkyr is a DPS. This is intended and to be expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw1996 Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) I've Completed a T5 bounty before in PoE (Which is 40 - 60 i think) with a bleeding dragon key with Valkyr Solo. With Bleeding dragon key, she got 150 shields and 185 health. In PoE, T5 Bounties would spawn Napalms, Heavy Gunners, Bombards, Etc. But I managed to beat it on my Second try. First try, I died three times, but second, not even once. I used a Eternal War build for that and Hysteria's Life Steal is a reward for her risks. The Archwing's Enemies are in PoE so it's possible to do crazy stuff with Valkyr the way she's now but she's more of a "Player instead of the frame" type of frame. 80% damage reduction is nothing still against lvl 100 T4 Corrupted since they have a 200% - 300% damage Modifier. So she would be useless without Invincibility. Edited January 3, 2018 by Shaw1996 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyia Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 4 minutes ago, Shaw1996 said: 80% damage reduction is nothing still against lvl 100 T4 Corrupted since they have a 200% - 300% damage Modifier. So she would be useless without Invincibility. This is completely and utterly incorrect. Or are you going to tell me that Mesa with 95% damage reduction is 'useless' against level 100 Corrupted enemies? Because if you are then you have zero clue what you're talking about as she is extremely tanky with Shatter Shield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw1996 Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) Not 100% sure but AoE can still kill Mesa with Shatter Shield. Edited January 3, 2018 by Shaw1996 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsill Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, HeiAtzfel said: 2. But once again, the raw damage reduction isn't the only thing that comes into play here. You HAVE to take into consideration Hysteria's passive 5% lifesteal as well, because I assure you if you were to give Valkyr 95% damage reduction on Hysteria she may as well still have immunity because that DR combined with Hysteria's lifesteal and she will literally never die. Even at 80% she'll have a difficult time dying so long as she isn't completely IGNORING enemies and simply not attacking them.`As for Mesa, I fail to see why you keep bringing her up. She's a different frame with a different kit. And while I do think her Shatter Shield scaling up to 95% DR is a little bit silly at times, it's the single only thing (in her own kit) keeping her alive. And as such, it's perfectly fair for her to have that. 3. But that's the thing, she doesn't NEED CC immunity. Even as she currently is, that CC immunity is more of a luxury than a necessity. CC in this game is an extremely small threat so long as the player has an active brain and dodges it; as all CC barring Eximus slowing auras is dodgeable by simply moving (i.e. Mutalist Moa tar pools and foot slams, Bombard/Gunner gound slams, Ancient grapples, Bursa knockdowns, etc etc). 4. No, she wouldn't NEED to scale her DR higher than, say, 80%. Because Hysteria has innate 5% lifesteal on her slashes. And even on bosses where you can't deal damage because of invulnerability she can still lifesteal. I don't know exactly why it works, but go fight Ruk and attack him immune parts. Valkyr's HP will still go back up from her slashes despise them dealing no actual damage. Don't ask me, I don't know why it works. Just that it does. 5. No, this comparison is purely Exalted weapon VS Exalted weapon. It's a frame by frame comparison, and Valkyr will do much much more damage than a Wukong will. But once more; Wukong is a tank, Valkyr is a DPS. This is intended and to be expected. If you put steal fiber on valkyr you will have over 80% dmg reduction. Try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draemoris Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, Shaw1996 said: Not 100% sure but a Bombard can still kill Mesa with Shatter Shield. Only if the explosion goes off near her and that's basically removing shatter shield from the picture simply because it goes THROUGH shatter shield. However the actual shot from the bombard will bounce off of her and deal next to no damage. Also, in the simulacrum as we speak. Yeah these level 100s are definitely doing a lot of 3-5 damage ticks per shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyia Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Betsill said: If you put steal fiber on valkyr you will have over 80% dmg reduction. Try it out. I'm well aware, however the DR granted from armor can be shredded by certain damage types. This is the specific reason why I specified that her DR buff from Hysteria should be flat DR, NOT DR given through armor. Take Mesa for instance; her Shatter Shield's effectiveness cannot be lessened by any damage type (barring AoE damage near her and melee hits). Valkyr's Hysteria DR would work exactly like this. Edited January 3, 2018 by HeiAtzfel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsill Posted January 3, 2018 Author Share Posted January 3, 2018 10 minutes ago, HeiAtzfel said: This is completely and utterly incorrect. Or are you going to tell me that Mesa with 95% damage reduction is 'useless' against level 100 Corrupted enemies? Because if you are then you have zero clue what you're talking about as she is extremely tanky with Shatter Shield. You really like to straw man... There is a massive difference between 80 and 95% dmg reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draemoris Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Betsill said: If you put steal fiber on valkyr you will have over 80% dmg reduction. Try it out. Actually that's completely incorrect because armor is actually penetrated by certain damage types. You have 0 idea what you're about. Ferrite is the armor type used by all frames, excluding stalker but stalker isn't playable anyway. So ferrite is extremely weak to puncture damage, surprise surprise, a majority of corpus utilize puncture as their damage output. This goes through your armor, where as a flat 95% damage reduction is not added TO your armor, it overwrites your actual armor value for its own. TLDR: Flat damage reduction cannot be shredded through by damage types such as puncture where as armor very much can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illyia Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Just now, Betsill said: You really like to straw man... There is a massive difference between 80 and 95% dmg reduction. Firstly, there isn't much. 15% difference, to be exact. Secondly, I don't think you seem to understand what 'strawman argument' means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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