Mazimer Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) ok, now that it's not 2am in the morning when i finished this, here's a short summary of the post below: -UI needs to be addressed asap, it's still pretty terrible -loot and enemy radar should be fixed and updated (loot picked up should be darker, mods should show up on loot radar as well) -waypoints should change to tags and should stick (so when you make a tag, you should still have a waypoint to use) -waypoints should change on mods, as well as resources (elevator switch conundrum) -mods acquisition is fine, but cores should drop more often with an additional drop table just for them (50% faster or so) and should cost more to fuse -there should be a mod store that allows you to buy cores (instead of an additional drop table, perhaps?) every now and then, or buy a mod that you're missing every 50 or so hours (to keep the mods shop from being useless, the steep time requirement means you only get to fill that one mod you really want every 50 hours) -all auras should become unstackable and i've suggested some numbers - this is to really CHANGE the way we play, to have a combination of 4 instead of having 4 stacked siphons and just skill spam all day every day -i've suggested how to break up the trio problem (vauban, frost, nova) by diving the bunker capability to both vauban and frost and making a complete heartstop a combination of both, this includes non-stackable auras and: -bastille shouldnt stop enemies by itself, instead i suggest that it becomes a slowing field of 80%, with infested impendance, that would work on all factions, give it 95% slowing when maxed. this would mean that bastille would be a stopper by itself, but not a godlike stopper that it is now, making vauban the only choice for any defence (80% slowing +15% slowing by impendance is ADDITIVE, not MULTIPLICATIVE) -frost's snow globe could have the same slowing effect it has now, but in combination with bastille, it would do what bastille does now, a complete stun and stop of all enemies that come to the edge of this doubled up bunker -their ranges should also be matched, or bastille should be slightly bigger (this is to fix the whole "frost must not use stretch to actually make the bunker work" situation that arises in t3 defences and some maps for endless defence) -nova redesign focused more toward prime being for enemy weakening AND total destruction ONLY and ONLY if the enemy is PACKED TIGHTLY TOGETHER (changing explosion type to either laser or serrated blade and dropping it to the 300-600 range) and moving her damage capability more toward AM drop (a 10k explosion only takes several bullets of a weapon equipped with base dmg, multishot and 2 elemental maxed mods, and potential change of damage type from laser to serrated blade) -a massive volt redesign to make his shield his primary ability and giving shock a different role, as well as making speed last twice as long and cost twice as much (right now, keeping speed up becomes a bloody chore) and a few ideas on how to fix his suicidal ultimate -and then we come to the boring math that i've done that points out some numbers on why energy siphon should be buffed if non-stack auras are implemented and why rage must be adjusted -moving on, i'll cover: -warm coat and ice hazard -in connection to that, nightmare mode in general I've been with the game since update 7, but i've read up on the major changes before U7 so i'd like to give a brief comment on DE's treatment of their playerbase :P. I'd appreciate any thoughts on this rather extensive feedback WoT (wall of text) :). In short: It's great. In long: -on the financial side, you guys are making a game that is based around paying small ammounts of money to keep all of your progress (26 euro package gets you enough slots for all warframes and every weapon worth keeping in the ENTIRE game), or more money to skip grinding (but still not a whole lot, grandmaster package (which is 180 euros) gets you enough slots for everything, all colours, potatoes for all frames, sentinels and worthwhile weapons and a lot of formas). And that, in my opinion, is truly an attitude worthy of support. -on the grinding side, it isn't too bad, about 100 hours of grinding smart should get you enough weapons to get your ogris, acrid and lanka (note: im a pretty hardcore shooter player, my opinion may be biased) -on the balancing side, NOVA IS OP *RAGE RAGE* <--- i'll get back to that Now, an overview of the game itself First, a few key notes: -i'm a hardcore player -i've had access to dojo weapons since they've come out -i have base dmg mods at lvl 8 or better, redirection at 10 and rainbow mods at max, so my difficulty feedback may be biased I would like to break this overview into a few sections -UI -Mods acquisition and fusion -Balance, which includes: -Combat difficulty -Warframe balancing -Weapon balancing -Melee gimmickness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimmick) -Sound UI: Pre-feedback moment: less blue, more grey, me gusta :3 Great compared to just a few updates ago, but still pretty horrible for a game that's SO HEAVILY based around CO-OP. The horrible scrolling issues that have been dragging on, invitations being lost, not being able to see squad chat sometimes, the whole chat being incredibly unstable, right-click options inconsistent, ignore not muting people's voice chats, the list of serious design flaws and bugs GOES ON AND ON. These issues should be addressed as top priority, not letting them drag on and on and on. The in-game UI is to the point, well designed but the laginess of enemy radar and loot radar being poorly designed do pose a major barricade. Here's the situation with loot radar: -shows resource drops only, no mods -shows resources that you picked up already (but not everyone in your team has) the same as the ones you haven't picked up yet. loot radar should show mods aswell and should differantiate between picked up drops and drops that your team still has to pick up (they should become darker when you pick them up, or something to that tone, so you can waypoint better for your teammates) which brings me to the next point: waypoints: -still buggy as hell, but usable at this point, they used to be way worse -they still dissappear very inconsistently -why no resource change? why do waypoints change on ELEVATOR SWITCHES and NOT RESOURCES??? what's the reasoning behind this? Here's a few suggestions: -Make waypoints that change (on mods, hopefully resources too) stick so you have a waypoint to use as a waypoint and the ability to truly TAG drops (so you make a tag that sticks beside your waypoint) i understand this could lead to screen clogging so... -each mod/resource should be taggable only once and tag should dissappear when everyone has picked it up (which it, oddly enough, doesn't right now) -they must remain the way they are right now as far as "stacking" is concerned, if there's multiple waypoints on a single tile, they dont show up as multiples untill you're in the same tile, but will instead stack up into a single waypoint that will lead you to the entrance of said tile and THEN split up to their exact positions Mods acquisition and fusion: As it stands right now, acquisition of mods is quite good, well set up, but there's one or two things i'd like to comment on RNG gods problems: -getting some of the mods that are essential to damage output are roll of the dice -to get into high wave defences, you must have pretty much every mod in the roster, to adjust to the situation @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ I WILL BE WORKING ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT DE WILL MAKE ENERGY SIPHON NON-STACKABLE @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ .6 regen/second is a joke. If you've ever gone beyond wave 30 on xini or pluto defences, you'll know that you need some seriously sick weaponry to still stand a chance of getting anywhere further without stacked siphons. Seriously sick weaponry being: -potato'd -forma'd once atleast, to fit any combination of 5 mods in (or one polarity by default) -multishot -lvl 7+ base dmg mod -rainbow set -something to help your either reload faster, fire faster or keep your ammo up (ammo max, conversion) now what i suggest, is a mod store. THE MAIN PURPOSE of this store would be to buy cores, but also to allow you to buy any mod you're missing each say... 50 hours of gameplay. No more grinding for 100+ hours for an instance of a specific multishot (many reported cases of this). Instead, every 50 or so hours you can buy any mod that isnt dropped mostly in the void (elemental resists, rage, reach, etc). OR you can buy cores. Now 50 hours may seem steep, but with the new mod auction house comming sometime in the future, there should be a steep time requirement to fill in that one mod you're missing, or the auction house is just pointless. and the final bit: cores should be obtainable a bit faster (perhaps a separate drop table just for cores in addition to the current mod + cores drop tables) and should cost 2x as much to fuse with this you fix two problems: -the completely insane fusion requirements for 10-level mods (at this point, you need over 1k hours of gameplay to get one set of: redirection, vitality, steel fiber for warframes and sentinels as well as serration x2 and hornet strike (2x serr for your weapon + sentinel) -void credit oversaturation problem - note that just making cores more expensive to fuse wont solve it, there must be other sinks added aswell Balance: In short, this game is very well balanced, with every frame having its place, but suffers from 3 frames being broken (and volt being the bastard child noone really wants for anything but speed) to the point where all you want for defences is: -nova - the ultimate piece of unbalanced herpty derpty unskilled derp -frost (not for infested) -vauban (mostly infested, but also good for other 2 factions) -frame x that gets carried by said trio now, like i said, all frames have their uses, and to avoid being vague, ill show you just a few examples for each: @@@@@ this section assumes you have access to all power-boosting and energy-usage mods, namely: flow streamline stretch constitution continuity focus and that mod capacity isnt a problem @@@@@ -Excalibur: -slash dashing across levels without end, you gain your energy back by simply killing, as you pick up orbs when you pass your enemies -if you come into a particularly nasty bunch of enemies, you can use radial blind to stun for a low energy price or just outright kill them for a higher one with radial javelin -very suitable for speed running with fully modded duration (slash dash is longer with duration) and just slash dashing across whole rooms in mere seconds -Ember: -anything light infested gets killed by world on fire -overheat is, for its energy cost, the second most damaging ability, not to mention the armor boost (first being AM drop, getting to that) -best to team up with a vortex-spamming vauban, as overheat and fireball both have small ranges (but have a pretty high damage!!) -Banshee: -sonic boom, when you can spam the ability, will keep large enemies at bay pretty easily in just about any situation where you arent completely surrounded -sonar makes dispatching enemies much easier, as well as acting as an enemy radar -quake is a great way to truly deny a large area of enemies -saryn -venom deals quite high damage not to mention that it deals A LOT of dmg if you take the time to put it on a resilient enemy and popping it -molt is a life-saver as well as invaluable when using AOE weaponry (ogris, torid, the like) -contagion does not, as far as i know, scale with melee dmg and is sort of gimmicky because it gives relatively low boost of damage for a 50 energy skill -miasma is a straight killer to all enemies in a large radius but has no CC capabilities (getting back to that part in a bit) -ash -shurikens are spammable no-skill quick-cast killers, which, in retrospect, is perfectly suited to him -smoke screen is a stun + short invisibility, giving either the time to kill several enemies around you, or just run if there are too many -teleport is a situational skill, but is useful for getting away from being surrounded -blade storm is a medium-damage AOE killing spree that makes you invulnerable, which makes it perfect to restore your shields as well as kill off 13 enemies at most -loki -decoy makes it possible to really survive even in a fragile loki, not to mention the piling-up capability for aoe weaponry -invisibility is, with the right build, completely spammable and makes loki the only frame in the game who can go full batS#&$ mode on everything with melee ('cept toxics) -switch teleport works a lot like ash's teleport, but has a few spruced up uses: -trolling raptor -trolling raptor -trolling raptor -and oh yeah, trolling raptor! ^ | do post any other uses you've thought of, i dont particularly play loki a lot -radial disarm makes any non-infested defence into an infested defence -mag -pull is a great way to pile up stuff for torid, ogris and the like -shield polarize is still gimmicky -bullet attractor + radial javelin nuke is still super trololol -crush has insane range, will essentially allow everyone in that area to start regenerating shields and will kill non-armored units -nyx -mind control will work a lot like a decoy, except it can be a LOT tougher -psychic bolts are still gimmicky for a 50 energy skill -chaos is just that, chaos. gives your team a lot of breathing room wherever its used and will essentially stop most traffic in defences -absorb is really powerful if you get your teammates to shoot you -trinity -skill spam everywhere, noone dies, with enough mods you're also the old rhino but on drugs, because you reflect the damage as well -rhino -charge is a nerfed slash dash, fits perfectly with the rest of skills -iron skin makes rhino the only real tank in the game, trinity link spam takes a lot of hassling with energy vampire, essentially taking a lot of your time to keep casting those two skills instead of killing -roar is always welcome and is actually quite spammable with the right skills -stomp is, in rotation (meaning 2 or more rhinos take turns to use it), spammable and is an outright game-breaker (i'll get back to this) now we come to the 4 most broken frames: -volt -frost -vauban -nova -volt -shock is a nice spammable corpus killer and stunning skill -NEED FOR SPEED! ( )-shield will turn most weapons into hitscan, useful for slow-travelling guns... but its energy requirement is UTTERLY ATTROCIOUS volt is anti-corpus frame, with only the shield and speed having a real application against other factions, and even that is only for a very select few weapons... now that's all nice and stuff, untill we come to: HIS ULTIMATE! OVERLOAD! aka suicide. ok, no offence to the person who decided how this skill should work but WHAT THE **** were you smoking? this skill is, IN MAJORITY of cases versus high level monsters (EVEN VS. CORPUS) a suicide. anything outside overload (range is not that big unless you hit all those electronics, which only work once, big issue in defences) will continue to shoot you. And since you're not invulnerable, you will DIE. YOU WILL DIE WHILE USING YOUR ULTIMATE. the higher the level of enemies, the more frequently this will happen. at around lvl 100, not even a fully modded potato'd, forma'd and aura'd volt will stand a chance to survive his ultimate vs non-corpus (and mostly vs corpus aswell) if there's even a single enemy outside his range. now i realize that most things hit by overload are stunned (not vs infested, ancients will just go full batS#&$ on you), but you are essentially dead unless you hit EVERY ENEMY in the room, making overload an annoyingly hard skill to use which will punish you every time you don't use it perfectly. Ultimate move my &#!. - frost -freeze is only useful for solo with NO sentinel... lame. -ice wave is essentially another gimmicky skill, 50 energy for a skill akin to a rhino charge... and it doesnt ignore armor + doesnt even freeze? :| -globe is essential for every non-infested defence and makes bossing much easier... in most cases, anyway. blocking off your team's firepower is just poor use of skill D: -avalanche will utterly destroy shields, which cements its use vs grineer and corpus (ancients dont have shields) -vauban -tesla is a great skill, balanced well (8400 damage over 64 seconds vs corpus, stun and some damage vs grineer, pretty much useless against infested) -bounce is gimmicky, damage is far too low -bastille is a game-breaker -vortex is another game-breaker -nova yep, here we are - null star (aka SDS - self-defence system) makes nova's "fragile" nature a joke, unless you rush really hard - AM drop is the single most powerful 50 energy skill, easily reaching 50k damage (yeah, im not kidding, shooting one 21-bullet clip of fully modded acrid into it will turn it into a 50k large-radius explosion) - wormhole makes travelling and escape both fun and easy, for a relatively high energy cost and now THE RAGE THE IMBALANCE essentially, this: this skill makes every other skill in the game COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY F**************************** USELESS. the ONLY time where this skill actually becomes "balanced" is at VERY HIGH WAVE defences (wave 70+), at which point you're mostly just looking for the double damage effect and not the explosion damage. i wont go into the math of this, but if you think 35 meters range skill for 70 energy that will kill everything below level 50 and nearly kill everything below 100 as soon as something hits anything (im looking at you, non-armored smallfry) and make all affected targets take double damage AND slow them down is balanced, pass me that weed you're smoking. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ READ BEFORE MOVING ON: these proposed balance changes are to balance ENDGAME @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ before i start, there is one assumption to all of this: buff all auras somewhat and make them NON-STACKABLE @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ this will allow for something other than "4 energy siphons for the win, coz the rest of auras are S#&$ in comparison to the skill spam you can unleash with it" some proposed numbers: -infested impendance (in continuation "general impendance"): view section on breaking up the trio problem, but essentially, make it an all-faction slowing artifact, with 2.5%/rank, 15% at max rank -energy siphon - 1.2 energy / second at max, so .2/rank <---- .6 is just too low for keeping up some skills, i'll get back to that as well. also, 1.2/second with 3 other aura effects would complement nicely and would replace the ability to just spam skills -rifle amp - buff it to 5%/level, so it goes to 30% -steel charge - buff it to 7.5%/level, so it goes to 45% -scavenger auras - +150% pickup AMMOUNT, not frequency, current mechanic merely acts more like an ammo conversion mod, making it easier to resupply by picking up everything instead of looking for your ammo. this mechanic, other the other hand, would actually turn your ammo-burner into a solid ammo-efficient weapon that you can EASILY sustain (+50 rifle/pistol ammo, +25 sniper/shotgun ammo) by LOOKING for your appropriate drops, not just picking up everything, that's just lazy and should remain in the domain of a mod, not an aura -physique - buff it to 5%/level, maximum of 30% (a problem arrises with the RAGE mod, rage should be nerfed heavily, will get back to that) -enemy radar - buff it to 9 meters/level, should encompass the whole minimap at 45 meters at max level -loot radar - same as enemy radar, SHOULD BE ADDED AS AN AURA -corrosive projection - fine as it is -shield disruption - should be buffed to CP levels, 6%/rank, 30% at max i believe i've covered all of them by now :) here are some suggestions how to balance out some major balance issues: right now, we have that ultimate trio for any defence that just shouldnt stay the way it is. globe to protect you from range attacks, bastille to protect you from melee attackers and nova ulti spam to kill everything now how do we get rid of THAT without breaking the uniqueness of all three frames? here's a simple solution: -first off, match base range of bastille and globe (or make bastile SLIGHTLY bigger) this is in order to avoid the situation which is very evident in t3 def: globe with stretch and bastille with stretch will create a thin layer between the globe's edge and bastille, which allows units to come into the globe and start shooting the place up, because bastille isnt reaching it. the current difference is small, so "overall balance" wont be affected so much (9 metres for bastille, 10 for globe) you ditch stretch on globe to make bastille bigger than the globe and rectify the problem, but... why would you wanna do that to begin with? that's $&*&*#(%&, you're limiting frost's other 2 abilites, wave and avalanche, by doing this, and thereby limiting frost's role to "bunker creator with a useless wave and a small &#! ultimate" -secondly, make stasis of bastille harder to reach here's the thing: infested defences, all you want is a vauban to spam his bastille all over the pod and you WIN as long as you have a nova and the weapons to kill everything (anything with armor ignore and good ammo economy) that survives the group explosion non-infested defences, you just add a globe to that, to keep you safe from ranged attacks and you just stay in the globe and shoot out of it NOVA is added only for S#&$loads of damage, not safety. but her ultimate is so freaking strong that you will want that trio and nothing else, if you want to go beyond waves with level 100 monsters so what i propose to break this trio problem is this: vaub and frost: make bastille a SLOWING field, instead of a stasis one, with 85% slowing at level 3. don't freak out, you can still make it into pretty a barrier, with some effort: -infested impendance should be turned into a general impendance, with 15% at max rank THESE SHOULD BE ADDITIVE so, you can only reach a "statis" field with a maxed impendance aura now add the frost's globe into the mix: since bastille needs an aura to fully function, i'd say frost's globe should be slightly nerfed and become slightly better than it is now with the impendance aura at max rank @@@@@@@ nova @@@@@@@ nova needs a major redesign it has several issues: -AM drop is, with very little effort, in fact STRONGER than molecular prime when it comes to pure damage -molecular prime is stupidly powerful so here's a new proposed set of skills: Null Star - stays the same, except you should be able to recharge its charges back to 6 at any given time AM drop: -it should be made from 50 to 100% bigger -100 serrated blade damage with 1 metre range (for all levels) - am drop does laser dmg right now, according to wiki, it could stay that way, as laser dmg starts out low but stays relatively high compared to normal damage when scaled to armor - dera complex -x1/x2/x3 multiplier on damage taken instead of x2/x3/x4 at this time -guidance stays the same Wormhole - stays the same Molecular prime: -range of skill, range of explosions stay the same -explosions deal 150/300/600 laser damage or 100/200/300 serrated blade damage AFTER DOUBLE DAMAGE, so in fact 75/150/300 or 50/100/150 BEFORE MULTIPLIER -slowing and double damage effects stay the same now, what do we get from THIS setup? a nova, whose ultimate is focused more on weakening the enemy as well as dealing some damage and A LOT of damage even to higher level enemies ONLY AND ONLY IF THE ENEMY IS STACKED UP <--------- defence, anyone? and whose BASE DAMAGE DEALING ABILITY TAKES EFFORT TO USE, not just casting it and shoot a derp a herp a derpedy herp and see everything die around you. other warframes only a few really stand out as being awkward to me, so here they are: volt: -25 energy skill - electric shield here are the wiki notes on it: Lasts 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 seconds. This is affected by Power Duration (Continuity , Constitution and the Pulse Volt Helmet). Cost to equip of 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 which is then halved by the Polarity slot, rounded up. Shots fired through the shield will deal 50% additional damage as Electrical damage. Weapons with innate armor ignore do not benefit from the additional damage. Enemy fire will be fully absorbed by the shield. Placing second shield in line won't give you another +50% damage, in fact second shield will block your bullet. Grants unlimited weapon range if you shoot through it (bug?) Eliminates damage falloff from shotguns. Shots fired through the shield with Flux Rifle maintain their continuous-fire damage and gain infinite range instantaneously. should last 20 seconds not 25 everything else is good for it this will turn volt into a useful barricader, as 75 energy for one shield makes it not all that desirable - 50 energy skill - speed buff its duration to 20 seconds, essentially doubling energy cost and duration, spamming speed every 10(16 with mods) seconds is annoying and becomes a chore! also give it infinite range, like trinity's blessing. - 75 energy skill - massive shock -essentially a buffed shock that would work like a medium-damage medium-range stun + damage skill - sort of like excalibur's radial blind but with damage - 100 energy skill - overload either make volt invincible during casting or invert the mechanic that goes full-on-retard and makes you exposed to enemy fire longer and make it so that overload gains additional range and LOWERS casting time depending on number of destroyed electronics. this wont be a problem in defences, as you only destroy electronics at the pod only once. you could also make it shorter depending on number of enemies you hit instead <----- do not give invincibility on this, OP corpus destruction will insue @@@@@@ rhino: @@@@@@ everything here is fine, except: -give us a counter of iron skin strength left and/or -iron skin should be replenishable (like nullstar) @@@@@@ excalibur @@@@@@ -slash dash should provide invincibility, this is the same issue as blade storm (rhino charge's non invincibility is not an issue, rhino has iron skin) - skimming across toxics is suicide -radial blind should have a bigger range -super jump: here's where it gets radical every single frame should have access to this skill for 50 energy at the 5 key - without a card, this should be an innate ability and excalibur should gain a useful super jump, called "Death from above": you start as tho you're doing a normal super jump, but at its peak, you SLAM down for a large-radius low-damage momentary stun ( - this should give you a general idea) proposed numbers: - 50/75/100 armor ignore damage, OR BETTER: 50/75/100% of your CHARGE ATTACK damage, essentially turning your excalibur's melee weapon into something truly deadly, it would become a jump attack infused with energy for extra power and would be given knockback/stagger no matter the weapon - 10/15/20 metre range (or 50/75/100% jump attack radius) - duration of a normal stagger or knockback - 50 energy cost -radial javelin is fine as it can combo with bullet attractor for seriously uber OP nukes the innate super jump ability (clocked at what it currently is at rank 3 for excalibur) would allow you to use energy to get out of a tough spot but SHOULD NOT cost 10, but 50 energy instead, to avoid this becoming your get-out-of-fail-free card @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ STOP READING HERE IF YOU BARELY DRAGGED YOURSELF TO HERE, I'LL BE MAKING A COMPLETE CALCULATION OF EVERY FRAME'S ABILITY TO SPAM SKILLS UNDER DIFFERENT SETS OF CIRCUMSTANCES THIS IS PURELY TO FURTHER EXPLAIN MY NON-STACK AURA NUMBERS - IN SHORT, EXTREMELY BORING BALANCE AND MATH STUFF @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ and now i return to the rage mod, as promised :) let's take a loot at saryn or ash: 1110 health at vitality rank 10 30% physique that gives ~1450 hp 1.5% vampiric drain/second means 21 (or 22, not sure on exact numbers) hp/second drain, which translates to approximately 8 energy per second if you equip rage at 40% hp dmg to energy conversion now that is just... well... stupid. ill bring in a concept of "energy passive supply" or EPS to this and it goes as follows: EPS = energy resupplied by energy siphon (and rage, when appropriate) in time that you must sensibly recast said skill to keep its utility in effect / energy cost of skill @@@ important note: i'm working on following assumptions: -i realize that truly perfectly set up teams are rare, but the case and point are to show EXTREMES that will become more common with time as more and more such teams are created because more people will have maxed auras and mods -working with numbers of max rank skills -constitution and continuity DO NOT stack, instead they are additive (58% power duration boost, i'll work with 55%) if they stack, the problem is even worse: 1.3*1.28=1.664 which is a 66.4% power duration increase -working on wiki duration data, which may not be accurate -streamline is working as intended (.7x base energy cost) -to show my energy siphon number, i'm assuming 4x maxed energy siphon vs my non-stackable siphon (2.4 vs 1.2 energy/second) -rage converts integers to floats (5hp drain --> 2.0 and not 2 energy regeneration/second) ill explain this on 2 cases: vauban's bastille and frost's globe @@@@@ bastille @@@@@ EPS = energy restored in time to recast / energy cost of skill <---- this is what we work on energy restored... base duration: 15 seconds adjusted for both duration mods: 23.25 seconds <-- lowering it to 22, as you dont want to let bastille go down at any time vs very high level monsters 2.4 regen/second for 4 maxed siphons energy cost... base: 75 adjusted for maxed streamline: 52.5 this brings EPS to: (2.4*22)/52.5 > 1.0 which brings us to the conclusion that a bastille can be permanently spammed with the proper mods with 1.5 seconds breathing room BEFORE PICKING UP ANY ORBS. @@@@@ globe @@@@@ same drill base duration: 30 seconds adjusted duration: 46.5 seconds <--- 45 in calculations , to account for breathing room between recasts base cost: 50 adjusted cost: 35 EPS = 45*2.4/35 = 3.09 yeah... you can spam 3 frost globes and still get all the energy back. but that's ok, that gives you room to use other skills! but more on that on frost's personal analysis @@@@ rage @@@@ so now that we got that out of the way, it's time to back to rage with just 2.4 energy/second, you can see that some skills are perfectly sustainable! now imagine 4 (on 225 at 30 base hp) to 8 energy second for nightmare mode! i'd say THAT would turn nightmare mode into "BURN THAT ENERGY" mode :\ :\ :\ see the problem? <---- not to mention you now DON'T die to HP drain so... 2.5% conversion / rank to make it 1-2 energy/second energy regeneration with physique and max vitality mod, would be much more suitable than 10%/rank, methinks. before we move on, i'll also introduce "spam time" or ST ST = time to regenerate ammount of energy that is energy cost ST = energy cost / energy_regen/second this will serve in my calculations for skills that have no obvious need to be recast to keep a utility running (damage skills) note that i'll also include ST/EPS that includes current rage and proposed rage for refference to nightmare mode rage calculations will assume rank 10 vitality mod(energy regeneration can go MUCH MUCH higher with multiple physiques equipped, but since im assuming 4 energy siphons, im sticking to vitality mod only) new rage calculations will assume rank 10 vitality and physique aura at 30% @@@@@@ excalibur's personal analysis @@@@@@ 740 hp vampiric drain per second: floor(740*0.015)=11 energy regeneration by rage: 11*.4=4.4 740*1.3=962hp vampiric drain: floor(962*0.015)=14 energy regeneration by new rage=14*.1=1.4 -slash dash: energy cost: 17.5 current ST: 17.5/2.4=7.3 seconds current ST with rage: 17.5/6.8=2.6 seconds non-stackable ST: 14.6 seconds non-stackable ST with rage: 17.5/2.6=6.7 seconds OK so this math goes ON AND ON, if you get the principle, you can check all the math in this spreadsheet: .htm format: http://www.mediafire.com/?skf8ek0rtdm7ifr note that all EPS and ST figures are BEFORE picking up orbs, so they should to be below 1 for the most part, and as far as ST are concerned, that's up to the devs to balance EDIT: i've had some time to work on making these results more readable, hopefully you can understand how i explain the results: current 4x siphons(later "option 1"): 25 energy skill - ST clocks in at 7.3 seconds 50 energy skill - ST clocks in at 14.6 etc. current 4x siphons and rage with max vitality mod(later "option 2"): 225 base HP at 30: 25 energy - ST = 3.125 seconds 50 energy - ST = 6.25 seconds 300 base HP at 30: 25 energy - ST = 2.55 seconds 50 energy - ST = 5.1 seconds 450 base HP at 30: 25 energy - ST=2 seconds 50 energy - ST=4 seconds non-stackable siphon(later "option 3"): 25 energy - ST = 14.6 seconds 50 energy - ST = 29.2 seconds non-stackable siphon + adjusted rage mod + maxed vitality mod(later "option 4"): 225 base HP at 30: 25 energy - ST = 8 seconds 50 energy - ST = 16 seconds 300 base HP at 30: 25 energy - ST = 6.7 seconds 50 energy - ST = 13.4 seconds 450 base HP at 30: 25 energy - ST= 5.3 seconds 50 energy - ST= 10.6 seconds - Now that i've got these numbers (i'll post the whole spreadsheet once i figure out how to export a kingsoft spreadsheets file properly) i can start working on an analysis of every frame as well as post the EPS results of all skills that require them - My suggestions are leaning toward skills being something very powerful but unspammable - ALL ST and EPS figures are BEFORE any orbs are picked up and are calculated on the assumption that you have both duration mods maxed out, please keep this in mind. Excalibur: - slash dash since this skill currently does not provide invincibility during the slash itself, it is dangerous to use vs toxics and high level monsters, and as such, i believe invincibility during casting should be added. option 1: currently spammable every 7.3 seconds, this means you can slash dash about 1/7 of the time with both duration mods equipped (it takes about a second to cast a full range slash dash). option 2: ST clocks in at 2.5 seconds, this turns excalibur into a "WHOOOHOOO SLASH DASH ALL DAY EVERY DAY" type of ride in a vampiric drain mission, as you will kill everything in the room before you even remotely start to run out of energy (150 energy with you slash dashing around will mean you are effectively losing around 10 energy per slash (in one second, you will reobtain 40% of 17.5 energy) which means you get to slash 15x without picking an orb option 3: ST clocks in at 14.6 seconds, which is what feels comfortable at the moment (playing duo with 2 energy siphons (which equals my non-stackable siphon's regeneration rate), you get to use slash dash quite a bit, but you dont get to kill everything with it) option 4: ST clocks in at 6.7 seconds, which is a bit faster than option 1. since you have to be in a nightmare mode to achieve this, i believe this to be acceptable - radial blind - EPS compatible note that i've calculated this skill's EPS using duration of 12 seconds, which is accurate vs. corpus and infested (only 5 seconds vs grineer) here are the results: it is UNSTASTAINABLE vs. grineer in all situations but option 2 option 1 = 1.275429 with the way radial blind currently works, this feels quite comfortable in any situation but is spammable with multiple excaliburs option 2 = 3.613714 with this option, it becomes highly spammable option 3 = 0.637714 with this option, you can keep whole groups at bay with 2 excaliburs, but not one, this is where it should be option 4 = 1.381714 with this option, as it's in nightmare mode, you can keep them at bay better than you can with option 1 and as such, i believe it to be appropriate Edited August 6, 2013 by Mazimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alchemistjkt Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 tl;dr stopped at "NOVA IS OP" just sayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazimer Posted August 5, 2013 Author Share Posted August 5, 2013 tl;dr stopped at "NOVA IS OP" just sayin nova is OP, it is perfectly suited for any situation in the game BETTER than any frame in the game (except in defences, in which it just brings the hurt and none of the defensive capabilities needed to succeed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TunaMayo Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 nova is OP, it is perfectly suited for any situation in the game BETTER than any frame in the game (except in defences, in which it just brings the hurt and none of the defensive capabilities needed to succeed) Couldn't you have waited until the Devs buff other frames before making this stupidly long post that 99% of people aren't going to read. I can also tell you now that the Devs aren't going to read it with all the "@@@@" and silly comments thrown about. The Devs are working on all other frames to bring them up to scratch, and you can't say that frames are OP when the game hasn't been fully realised yet. Who knows, the current solar system we are in could be the "starter system" in which you are MEANT to feel powerful. Perhaps the next solar system will be a real challenge and a kick in the teeth? Save yourself the effort and wait a few weeks for buffs of other frames to come out. And might I ask what your main, go-to frame is? It seems you don't like powers that kill a lot of stuff or have CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStag Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Vauban, the trapper. The tactician. So, you want to take "trap" out of Vauban? Bro, Trollban must stay Uncle Trollban, or nephew Loki would be displeased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazimer Posted August 5, 2013 Author Share Posted August 5, 2013 Vauban, the trapper. The tactician. So, you want to take "trap" out of Vauban? Bro, Trollban must stay Uncle Trollban, or nephew Loki would be displeased. 80% slowing is practically stopping them (i believe frost gets roughly 60% atm, think half that speed), with impendance aura you'd slow them down to a 5% crawl which would make it take about half a minute to cross that bastille Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipolipolopigus Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 If you want DE to look over this, I'd suggest giving it better formatting. Remove unnecessary linebreaks, use tidy paragraphs, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VScipii26 Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 I managed to read through it, and you're mostly all good.Do spruce it up a bit. Add some summaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazimer Posted August 5, 2013 Author Share Posted August 5, 2013 a summary of the post is up, i'll keep working on the post's readability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madotsuki Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 I was expecting a wall-of-text but DAMN. Anyway, not that interested in frame balancing, but i will admit that Nova's ult is just a tad OP. Not sure how to remedy it without ruining the frame though. Vauban's just fine as he is though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadAimbot Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 I read most of that and I agree with you in general. I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of what you come up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWGUNITALPHA Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) I'll be honest, I stopped reading and started laughing when you wanted to take away the one decent thing vauban can really do. EDIT: so after reading your tears about nova because this was too good to pass up; what frame do you like to play? Edited August 5, 2013 by DAWGUNITALPHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mietz Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 I'll be honest, I stopped reading and started laughing when you wanted to take away the one decent thing vauban can really do. If its a question of balance and the systems get changed to accommodate for it, no loss really. Vaubs is the best frame ingame atm, id rather see other frames follow his example, but if thats not possible (which it isnt) he needs to lose a bit of his functionality to be in line with other frames. I mean i wouldn't whine if they completely remade all the warframes entirely, beause right now they are wildly all over the place in desirability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWGUNITALPHA Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Vaubs is the best frame ingame atm. For infested defense maybe. But even then only as a defender, Ember does damn well as an offensive frame and even rhino does great too. He doesn't do so well against bullets to the face given how fragile he is and there's only so much you can do in non-defense maps with his abilities unless you're just going to enter a room and spam all your energy on filling it with bastillles to ensures nothing can move. But that just doesn't sound efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mietz Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 For infested defense maybe. But even then only as a defender, Ember does damn well as an offensive frame and even rhino does great too. He doesn't do so well against bullets to the face given how fragile he is and there's only so much you can do in non-defense maps with his abilities unless you're just going to enter a room and spam all your energy on filling it with bastillles to ensures nothing can move. But that just doesn't sound efficient. It should have read "one of the best frames". Nevertheless there are varying power and utility discrepancies in the frames, like look at Mag or Volt compared to Vauban or Nova. If we want a varied cast of warframes then all of them need to be viable, sometimes I get T3 pugs denied when I say I'm bringing a Mag. This game isn't really like WoW where I should bring "a healer" or "DPS" since we all do DPS through our weapons as good as it gets anyways. Or at least if this is the philosophy of DE, making some frames nearly mandatory or at least highly preferred, then I don't want to be part of this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWGUNITALPHA Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Mag (and at one point Volt) is a starter frame, it shouldn't be on par with something like vauban which you have to get through alerts. And if you're getting rejected for pub matches then I don't think your frame choice is to blame because lord knows I've done them using some awful and usually unranked combos without much issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mietz Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Mag (and at one point Volt) is a starter frame, it shouldn't be on par with something like vauban which you have to get through alerts. Why? Because its rare? Thats not an argument, thats an excuse. The power of a Warframe shouldn't be its rarity but the user behind the controls. Otherwise you admit the game is heavily geared towards items that are "better". Is that sound design? Selling power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWGUNITALPHA Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Why? Because its rare? Thats not an argument, thats an excuse. The power of a Warframe shouldn't be its rarity but the user behind the controls. Otherwise you admit the game is heavily geared towards items that are "better". Is that sound design? Selling power? Things that are better should be...well better, yes. The acrid should be better than the bolto. If everything was the same then there would be no reason to bother using anything other than the MK1 and skana you start with. More frames should be mastery locked like Rhino, the stronger ones in particular should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mietz Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Things that are better should be...well better, yes. The acrid should be better than the bolto. If everything was the same then there would be no reason to bother using anything other than the MK1 and skana you start with. More frames should be mastery locked like Rhino, the stronger ones in particular should. Why do we need things that are better? Can't we just have things that are different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazimer Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) I'll be honest, I stopped reading and started laughing when you wanted to take away the one decent thing vauban can really do. EDIT: so after reading your tears about nova because this was too good to pass up; what frame do you like to play? my favorite is rhino as i like to get right into the thick of it second favorite is nova (and would remain so even if her ulti was nerfed badly, i most enjoy her first 3 abilities) Edited August 6, 2013 by Mazimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock-Work Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) Things that are better should be...well better, yes. The acrid should be better than the bolto. If everything was the same then there would be no reason to bother using anything other than the MK1 and skana you start with. More frames should be mastery locked like Rhino, the stronger ones in particular should.There's a limit to everything. If at the end-game, there are only a handful of weapons you can be using, there's a problem. I'd rather see less of a linear progression when it comes to weaponry. I feel that the Acrid should offer different things that the Bolto doesn't without blowing it out of the ballpark.Replying to the Original Poster, There are osme interesting ideas in here, but I thinnk balancing should be an across the board thing. Redoing three frames just won't cut it. Edited August 6, 2013 by Clock-Work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazimer Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) There's a limit to everything. If at the end-game, there are only a handful of weapons you can be using, there's a problem. I'd rather see less of a linear progression when it comes to weaponry. I feel that the Acrid should offer different things that the Bolto doesn't without blowing it out of the ballpark. Replying to the Original Poster, There are osme interesting ideas in here, but I thinnk balancing should be an across the board thing. Redoing three frames just won't cut it. acrid is an endgame weapon that is better than all others (debatable, DoT effect does take its sweet time) PS: i've redone bastille's balancing section, vauban should have a stasis field but not as easily obtainable as he has it now (only if stacked with an impendance aura) Edited August 6, 2013 by Mazimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazimer Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 started to work on analysis of every frame's skill and EPS figures, currently doing excalibur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rksk16it Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) Why do we need things that are better? Can't we just have things that are different? So much this. If I am asked to design Acrid, I'll make it something like it does only 80% of dps of Bolto as poison, but applies a stackable debuff of 5% armor reduction, stacking upto, say 15 times. So if everyone is using Acrid, they will be doing less dmg than if everyone is using Bolto. But if only ONE person is using Acrid, and others using normal weapons, the damage will be crispy, and best thing is, its promoting teamwork. Edited August 6, 2013 by rksk16it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazimer Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 So much this. If I am asked to design Acrid, I'll make it something like it does only 80% of dps of Bolto as poison, but applies a stackable debuff of 5% armor reduction, stacking upto, say 15 times. So if everyone is using Acrid, they will be doing less dmg than if everyone is using Bolto. But if only ONE person is using Acrid, and others using normal weapons, the damage will be crispy, and best thing is, its promoting teamwork. an interesting proposal, but acrid is balanced. you'll kill things more slowly but it will take less shots to do it, so you can "tag" enemies for death, still take dmg from them for a second or two, but you've already killed them by tagging them to begin with. that is not game-breaking and is an appropriate reward for an endgame weapon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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